automatic checkride busts - your opinions

[brokeflyer]

Worry about CYA after the fact..

no...you make sure you say "wow...look at that...both engines flamed out at V1" and get it on the CVR.

 

[AC560]

no...you make sure you say "wow...look at that...both engines flamed out at V1" and get it on the CVR.

"wow...look at that...both engines flamed out at V1...(look at co-pilot and channel Blues Brothers)...I have always loved you"

 

[dustrpilot]

I agree in a real live situation, aviate and worry later about arm chair quarterbacks. As far as a check ride goes, the only " double" anything I every simulated was a engine fire followed by a failure. I have been out of the industry now going on four years, and with 4 more years in age, I'm too lazy to look it up, isn't most double failures not allowed by the PTS? Of course, if the crew couldn't identify and verify a dead engine and shut down the wrong one, that was on them! ( fortunately that was training and not checking and after the talking too afterwards, I'd bet it won't happen again with those two )

 

[rettofly]

Never heard of a "minus anything" call out in any plane I have trained on...

What do they rec'd?

I hope not discussing what the light/situation is?...I have heard some odd stuff at training centers, like aborting at V1-1kt for a screen failure...not happening on most runways we use. Common sense applies - 12K runway or 4K runway? They said it didn't matter...

Its all in the brief, get everyone on the same page.

We used to brief "After 80 KT, abort only for engine failure, fire or directional control problem". At V1, take it into the air.

30 KT windshear at liftoff: the airplane WILL land. Take the abort rather than trying to accelerate and fly. I've done it. It works.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

We used to brief "After 80 KT, abort only for engine failure, fire or directional control problem". At V1, take it into the air.

30 KT windshear at liftoff: the airplane WILL land. Take the abort rather than trying to accelerate and fly. I've done it. It works.

So you abort for windshear at Vr?.......who analyzes this in the 4 seconds between V1 and Vr?

Do whatever you want, Im more concerned in a thorough briefing than I am in anything else...and the brief should vary with conditions. I'm also sure you define "directional control"

On a 15,000ft runway in a business jet one can simply brief that they want to stop on anything before Vr (if they want)

But sorry, with most of the regular runways I use you wont find me aborting for a windshear at VR.

How about landing? You could be going around 10X on a real gusty winter day at my home airport (on a plateau) if you ran each time it yelled "windshear"

Its a never-ending debate, fly how you like and how your company likes...but planes will continue to go off the end of runways for items they could have easily landed with 5 mins later.

 

[pilotyip]

Its a never-ending debate, fly how you like and how your company likes...but planes will continue to go off the end of runways for items they could have easily landed with 5 mins later.

Until you have been there and done that, it is easy to Monday morning quarter back, and that is why CA's are paid the big bucks, to make those decisions, most guys get it right, some don't.

 

[Flying Biker]

Back to the subject of what can cause an automatic bust. There use to be an examiner around here that would bust you immediately for breaking the sterile cockpit rule. He would even try to get you to bust it by asking unimportant questions. One guy that was taking his ATP single was taxing out when the examiner asked him about what type of plane that was sitting on the ramp. When he answered, the examiner told him to taxi back. Immediate bust! That question was not pertinent to the flight so he busted him for answering instead of telling him to be quite unless it was something in regards to the flight.

 

[rettofly]

So you abort for windshear at Vr?.......who analyzes this in the 4 seconds between V1 and Vr?

Do whatever you want, Im more concerned in a thorough briefing than I am in anything else...and the brief should vary with conditions. I'm also sure you define "directional control"

On a 15,000ft runway in a business jet one can simply brief that they want to stop on anything before Vr (if they want)

But sorry, with most of the regular runways I use you wont find me aborting for a windshear at VR.

How about landing? You could be going around 10X on a real gusty winter day at my home airport (on a plateau) if you ran each time it yelled "windshear"

Its a never-ending debate, fly how you like and how your company likes...but planes will continue to go off the end of runways for items they could have easily landed with 5 mins later.

Not normally. This was a rapid 30 KT rollback of the airspeed drum with the mains about 5 ft AGL (Field elev 6600 or so). Airplane settled to the pavement with about 5000 ft of runway remaining. Got stopped about 100 ft past end of runway. I might have cleared the berm another 100 ft further, but then again, I might not.

 

[stupidpilot]

That is approaching loss of control, which is an emergency, use emergency authority do what you need to save the situation. How about both engines flame out at Vr? Worry about CYA after the fact. SOP is for normal procedures.

Did you miss the "if the aircraft is capable of flight" part? If both engines flame out or if you can't control it then why would you try to fly it?

 

[pilotyip]

Did you miss the "if the aircraft is capable of flight" part? If both engines flame out or if you can't control it then why would you try to fly it?

are you second guessing me?

 

[Rick1128]

As for raw data approaches, they are required for all 121 and 135 IFR checkrides. If the aircraft has a flight director, you will do at least 1 raw data approach, no matter what the MEL says. The MEL deals with leaving the gate. I have had FD's fail in flight, so I had no choice but to shoot a raw data approach.

Until the runway length is close to balance field length, V1 is an arbitrary number. Sometimes it is better to abort the takeoff than continue. Which would you rather do? Follow SOP and auger in just off the airport at redline. Or disregard SOP, abort the takeoff above V1 and go off the end of the runway at low speed?

Each situation is different and just because you did it that way the flight before, doesn't mean that you should do it that way on the next flight. That is why aircraft have pilots, not computers, making the decisions.

 

[2Inverted]

Why does the goose have to get the captain?

It's an advancement technique...

 

[stupidpilot]

are you second guessing me?

Yup!

 

[pilotyip]

Yup!

well at least we will sitting in the bar having a beer and talking about it, I am buying

 

[stupidpilot]

Sweet! See you next time I'm in Belleville!

 

[b19]

Where did this automatic thing even start ? A sky nazi ?

RE: Captain upgrade

Just getting a feel for what you guys consider "automatic checkride busts." This came up as a hangar discussion at our place a few days ago.

We agreed these were automatic, no-choice-but-fail items

1. Incorrect turn on Missed Approach
2. Exceeding a limitation and not immediately recognizing/correcting
3. Stall RECOVERY - improper/sloppy

some banter/non consensus occurred on

cockpit organization, charts, etc
stall entry (knowing the profile by memory or being able to use cheat sheet)

comments ?

Consistently exceeding tolerances stated in the TASK Objective, or failure to take prompt, corrective action when tolerances are exceeded, are indicative of unsatisfactory performance. The tolerances represent the performance expected in good flying conditions. Any action, or lack thereof, by the applicant which requires corrective intervention by the examiner to maintain safe flight shall be disqualifying.

When, in the judgment of the examiner, the applicant's performance of any TASK is unsatisfactory, the associated AREA OF OPERATION is failed and therefore the practical test is failed. Examiners shall not repeat TASKS that have been attempted and failed. The examiner or applicant may discontinue the test at any time after the failure of a TASK which makes the applicant ineligible for the certificate or rating sought. The practical test will be continued only with the consent of the applicant. In such cases, it is usually better for the examiner to continue with the practical test to complete the other TASKS. If the examiner determines that the entire practical test must be repeated, the practical test should not be continued but should be terminated immediately. If the practical test is either continued or discontinued, the applicant is entitled to credit for those TASKS satisfactorily performed. However, during a retest and at the discretion of the examiner, any TASK may be reevaluated including those previously passed. Whether the remaining parts of the practical test are continued or not after a failure, a notice of disapproval must be issued.

When the examiner determines that a TASK is incomplete, or the outcome uncertain, the examiner may require the applicant to repeat that TASK, or portions of that TASK. This provision has been made in the interest of fairness
and does not mean that instruction or practice is permitted during the certification process. When practical, the remaining TASKS of the practical test phase should be completed before repeating the questionable TASK. If the second attempt to perform a questionable TASK is not clearly satisfactory, the examiner shall consider it unsatisfactory.

If the practical test must be terminated for unsatisfactory performance and there are other TASKS which have not been tested or still need to be repeated, a notice of disapproval shall be issued listing the specific TASKS which have not been successfully completed or tested.

Okay opinions are like...

Did the above talk about "automatic busts", read the spirit of the thing, in it's entirety.

As to holding patterns - who cares how you entered, are you on the protected side, end of story.

The idiot playing gotcha with sterile cockpit, he probably shouldn't be giving rides.

And as to stall recovery the FAA just put out an FSO for 121 operators to say there is such a thing as acceptable loss of altitude on stalls so long as terrain is not a factor. The no loss of altitude was a misconception. You know a little comon sense, fly the jet, get some speed, recover.

Some, not all of these little airplane guys, (less than 300 tons) need to lighten up.

 

[dustrpilot]

Consistently exceeding tolerances stated in the TASK Objective, or failure to take prompt, corrective action when tolerances are exceeded, are indicative of unsatisfactory performance. The tolerances represent the performance expected in good flying conditions. Any action, or lack thereof, by the applicant which requires corrective intervention by the examiner to maintain safe flight shall be disqualifying.

When, in the judgment of the examiner, the applicant's performance of any TASK is unsatisfactory, the associated AREA OF OPERATION is failed and therefore the practical test is failed. Examiners shall not repeat TASKS that have been attempted and failed. The examiner or applicant may discontinue the test at any time after the failure of a TASK which makes the applicant ineligible for the certificate or rating sought. The practical test will be continued only with the consent of the applicant. In such cases, it is usually better for the examiner to continue with the practical test to complete the other TASKS. If the examiner determines that the entire practical test must be repeated, the practical test should not be continued but should be terminated immediately. If the practical test is either continued or discontinued, the applicant is entitled to credit for those TASKS satisfactorily performed. However, during a retest and at the discretion of the examiner, any TASK may be reevaluated including those previously passed. Whether the remaining parts of the practical test are continued or not after a failure, a notice of disapproval must be issued.

When the examiner determines that a TASK is incomplete, or the outcome uncertain, the examiner may require the applicant to repeat that TASK, or portions of that TASK. This provision has been made in the interest of fairness
and does not mean that instruction or practice is permitted during the certification process. When practical, the remaining TASKS of the practical test phase should be completed before repeating the questionable TASK. If the second attempt to perform a questionable TASK is not clearly satisfactory, the examiner shall consider it unsatisfactory.

If the practical test must be terminated for unsatisfactory performance and there are other TASKS which have not been tested or still need to be repeated, a notice of disapproval shall be issued listing the specific TASKS which have not been successfully completed or tested.

As to holding patterns - who cares how you entered, are you on the protected side, end of story.

The idiot playing gotcha with sterile cockpit shouldn't be giving rides.

And as to stall recovery the FAA just put out an FSO for 121 operators to say there is such a thing as acceptable loss of altitude on stalls so long as terrain is not a factor. The no loss of altitude was a misconception. You know a little comon sense, fly the jet, get some speed, recover.

Some, not all of these little airplane guys, (less than 300 tons) need to lighten up.

What he said.

From a lightened up little airplane guy!

 

[Pickle]

OK, found it....

As for raw data approaches, they are required for all 121 and 135 IFR checkrides. If the aircraft has a flight director, you will do at least 1 raw data approach, no matter what the MEL says.

From the 8900:

[FONT=&quot]5-832[/FONT] APPROACH EVENTS. The approaches described in this paragraph are required on all flight tests. They may be combined when appropriate.

[FONT=&quot]A.[/FONT] Instrument Landing System (ILS) or Microwave Landing System (MLS) Approaches. Inspectors and examiners shall require applicants to fly a minimum of one normal (all-engines operative) ILS or MLS. In addition, when multiengine airplanes are used, one manually controlled ILS or MLS with a powerplant failure is also required. When the flight test is conducted as a two-segment flight test, a manually controlled, normal ILS or MLS must be flown in the airplane segment of the flight test.

1) When the operator’s aircraft operating manual prohibits raw data approaches, the flight directors must be used during the manually control led ILS or MLS approaches. In this case, a raw data approach is not required to complete the flight test.

2) If the operator’s aircraft operating manual permits raw data ILS approaches to be conducted, the operator must provide training in the use of raw data for controlling an aircraft during ILS approaches. If the operator’s aircraft are equipped with a flight director system, the flight director must be used on at least one manually controlled ILS approach. While a raw data approach is not required to complete a flight test, inspectors and examiners should occasionally require a raw data approach to determine whether the operator’s training program is adequately preparing applicants.

Should does not = shall.

 

[BuckMurdock1]

Curious; is the upgrade candidate simply applying for a Pt. 91 type-rating? Does the applicant hold a Commercial? ATP? Commercial applying for ATP (+type rating)? Does the candidate already hold an aircraft type rating, but is applying COMM to ATP? I may be a bit naive as I've only trained/checked/flown professionally under 121 & 135 regs, but don't you only need a commercial cert. (+type rating for PIC) in the corporate jet world? Perhaps insurance always requires ATP these days..
Also; once the 'upgrade' has occurred (as in pilot gets type rating), is there an FAA-mandated recurrent 'jeopardy' checking event required?..or is it just what the company's insurance requires? Again-I apologize for my naivety, I only know what FAR/AIM says..but I can only guess that the 'real world' of corporate flying is always drived by insurance & bean counters with their own requirements, which are maybe even more stringent

 

[BuckMurdock1]

The reason I ask is that the original post indicates that they were 'sitting around a hangar' & discussing what they should bust people for. Are you DPEs? APDs? Or Pt. 91 self-designated company "check airman"..which I probably needn't tell you has no real "busting" authority. Most of the replies you seen on this threat have been factual proof-sources from various published FAA PTS, which is where the info should be referenced, IMO. I guess when you reference an "upgrade" checkride in the "corporate" section of FI, more info needs to be gathered. When you begin to elude to "cockpit organization; charts, etc" as a "must bust" item..and not perhaps a debriefing item..sounds kinda strange. (and frankly the kind of thing some ******************************y APD at some crap regional airline might pull if they decide they don't like a candidate).