automatic checkride busts - your opinions

[satpak77]

RE: Captain upgrade

Just getting a feel for what you guys consider "automatic checkride busts." This came up as a hangar discussion at our place a few days ago.

We agreed these were automatic, no-choice-but-fail items

1. Incorrect turn on Missed Approach
2. Exceeding a limitation and not immediately recognizing/correcting
3. Stall RECOVERY - improper/sloppy

some banter/non consensus occurred on

cockpit organization, charts, etc
stall entry (knowing the profile by memory or being able to use cheat sheet)

comments ?

 

[G100driver]

Read the ATP PTS ... Fly outside of those standards and examiner may bust you. Simple as that.

Anything outside of the PTS is subjective and you could have a reason to contest. Just fly the airplane the way the sim center teaches and you will be fine. If you are not going to the sim and you are doing an in-house type ... just do it how the instructor teaches you. If will satisfy the FAA ...

When in doubt, follow the ATP PTS.

 

[con-pilot]

I'd have crashing the aircraft rather high on the list.


Okay, okay I'll get serious.

What you have is pretty good, I'd add a few things.

As we are all human and will make mistakes, any applicant for upgrade can be expected to make a mistake and allowances should be made for such mistakes if they are minor, unless the applicant argues. Then that is a bust.

Improper joining of a holding pattern and refusal to acknowledge such. That would be a bust.

I'm a firm believe of anybody desirous of an upgrade, whether to PIC or an initial type rating, perform a raw data ILS approach to MAP. Maximum deviation allowed is one dot from center as long as the applicant starts an immediate correction.

Other than that, use your training/recurrency school standards.

 

[dustrpilot]

Having done part 121 checks ( not type rides) for about three years, I'd can't think of anything that was an automatic bust except for a red screen simulator and depending on the type of check, that wasn't always a bust, but they usually didn't go well from there. A check airman is representing the FAA, so the PTS should be the standard to follow. Stay in it's parameter and follows your companies procedures and you won't have a problem.

 

[sparky]

Aborting above V1

 

[G100driver]

Aborting above V1

Runaway stab trim after v1 but prior to vr on a 12,000' runway with a balanced field of 3500'?

No clear cut answer on that .... but if any examier would give you that senerio he/she is a total a-hole.

 

[K.V.]

Aborting above V1

Remember now, V1 is not a "catch-all" decision speed. It's a decision speed calculated on the loss of 1 engine thrust only. It assumes that all other systems are working properly. Like G100 said, if you find that for any reason after V1 the aircraft won't fly, ie. elevator cable broke, forward trim runaway, ground spoiler deployment, ect., it's time to become a human again and determine if it's better to try and stop the aircraft on the runway or possibly take it into the trees at the end of the runway, with the yoke in your chest.

There's no black or white, right or wrong answer here, but there are a lot of misconceptions about what V1 really is.

 

[satpak77]

my last FSI recurrent they highlighted that the decision should have already been made, prior to hitting V1. The decision does not occur at V1. They also said recent "industry recommendations" are that even sub-V1, you should "drive thru it" and rotate anyway, as this is much safer than high speed abort

barring a wing falling off or goose came thru windshield and killed captain, etc

 

[Wankel7]

my last FSI recurrent they highlighted that the decision should have already been made, prior to hitting V1. The decision does not occur at V1. They also said recent "industry recommendations" are that even sub-V1, you should "drive thru it" and rotate anyway, as this is much safer than high speed abort

barring a wing falling off or goose came thru windshield and killed captain, etc

Why does the goose have to get the captain?

 

[2000Easyguy]

Runaway stab trim after v1 but prior to vr on a 12,000' runway with a balanced field of 3500'?

No clear cut answer on that .... but if any examier would give you that senerio he/she is a total a-hole.

good point. look at the Yak 42 crash in Yaroslaov (killed Lokomotiv hockey team a week ago).

 

[ultrarunner]

my last FSI recurrent they highlighted that the decision should have already been made, prior to hitting V1. The decision does not occur at V1.....

Hense the 'minus 20' callout.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Hense the 'minus 20' callout.

Never heard of a "minus anything" call out in any plane I have trained on...

What do they rec'd?

I hope not discussing what the light/situation is?...I have heard some odd stuff at training centers, like aborting at V1-1kt for a screen failure...not happening on most runways we use. Common sense applies - 12K runway or 4K runway? They said it didn't matter...

Its all in the brief, get everyone on the same page.

 

[gern_blanston]

I imagine that there are more busts on the oral than on the flight portion. That's the way it used to be when I was a '135 check airman back in the dark ages.
The flight portion is pretty black and white compared to the maze that the oral can become.

 

[Pickle]

I'm a firm believe of anybody desirous of an upgrade, whether to PIC or an initial type rating, perform a raw data ILS approach to MAP. Maximum deviation allowed is one dot from center as long as the applicant starts an immediate correction.

In training? Sure. On the checkride? I don't think I'm such a big fan. The PTS does give the examiner the discretion to make the applicant do a raw data ILS, but IMHO (and MHO only) the examiner had better be able to justify the reason as to why the applicant all of a sudden lost his flight director.

 

[ultrarunner]

Never heard of a "minus anything" call out in any plane I have trained on...

121 large airplane thing, for some operators. References V1.

 

[CRJCA]

121 large airplane thing, for some operators. References V1.

I dont know about that...Ive done alot of airline flying here and overseas and never heard a "V1 Minus" call either.

 

[sinkrate]

In training? Sure. On the checkride? I don't think I'm such a big fan. The PTS does give the examiner the discretion to make the applicant do a raw data ILS, but IMHO (and MHO only) the examiner had better be able to justify the reason as to why the applicant all of a sudden lost his flight director.

Depends on the MMEL, and the limitiations that come with the deferred item. If it is in the MMEL it is fair game. If your 'time in type' is long enough sooner or later you will see the defer.

Most 'type' rides are given following the completion of of an 'approved training program', be it a 121 or 135 air carrier program or a 142 school such as FSI. The rules governing those programs allow the designee to give credit for some items in the Practical Test Standards if they are documented in the training program. Most do so.

Long and short of it is the PTS tells both the applicant and the examiner what constitutes a 'failure'. If you are completeing an approved program - pay attention and you will do fine.

 

[pilotyip]

Haven given many check rides, both military and civilian. My biggest problem is with a PIC who is not the Captain, does not take charge of the cockpit, does not use or properly direct his crew. The guy flies by standards, but is always behind the airplane. They seem surprised by what will happen next. Like on a NPA, the configuration call of "Gear Down, Flaps 25, final item" shoud be done about two miles from the FAF, but this guy calls for it just before getting to the FAF, doesn't bust stds, but is working his butt off to stablize due to late configuration.. BTW Just a tip I give to trainees' the ATP stds for flying at MDA are -0 +100', fly a +50' over MDA, it gives you fudge room and is within stds. I have seen too many pilots who try to fly at +0, it just makes it much easier to bust.

 

[stupidpilot]

Runaway stab trim after v1 but prior to vr on a 12,000' runway with a balanced field of 3500'?

No clear cut answer on that .... but if any examier would give you that senerio he/she is a total a-hole.

It depends. If your GOM says you will go post V1 (if the aircraft is capable of flight) then you go. Runway length is irrelevant. Stick to your SOP then there is no chance for any mis-understanding.

 

[pilotyip]

It depends. If your GOM says you will go post V1 (if the aircraft is capable of flight) then you go. Runway length is irrelevant. Stick to your SOP then there is no chance for any mis-understanding.

That is approaching loss of control, which is an emergency, use emergency authority do what you need to save the situation. How about both engines flame out at Vr? Worry about CYA after the fact. SOP is for normal procedures.

 

[brokeflyer]

Worry about CYA after the fact..

no...you make sure you say "wow...look at that...both engines flamed out at V1" and get it on the CVR.

 

[AC560]

no...you make sure you say "wow...look at that...both engines flamed out at V1" and get it on the CVR.

"wow...look at that...both engines flamed out at V1...(look at co-pilot and channel Blues Brothers)...I have always loved you"

 

[dustrpilot]

I agree in a real live situation, aviate and worry later about arm chair quarterbacks. As far as a check ride goes, the only " double" anything I every simulated was a engine fire followed by a failure. I have been out of the industry now going on four years, and with 4 more years in age, I'm too lazy to look it up, isn't most double failures not allowed by the PTS? Of course, if the crew couldn't identify and verify a dead engine and shut down the wrong one, that was on them! ( fortunately that was training and not checking and after the talking too afterwards, I'd bet it won't happen again with those two )

 

[rettofly]

Never heard of a "minus anything" call out in any plane I have trained on...

What do they rec'd?

I hope not discussing what the light/situation is?...I have heard some odd stuff at training centers, like aborting at V1-1kt for a screen failure...not happening on most runways we use. Common sense applies - 12K runway or 4K runway? They said it didn't matter...

Its all in the brief, get everyone on the same page.

We used to brief "After 80 KT, abort only for engine failure, fire or directional control problem". At V1, take it into the air.

30 KT windshear at liftoff: the airplane WILL land. Take the abort rather than trying to accelerate and fly. I've done it. It works.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

We used to brief "After 80 KT, abort only for engine failure, fire or directional control problem". At V1, take it into the air.

30 KT windshear at liftoff: the airplane WILL land. Take the abort rather than trying to accelerate and fly. I've done it. It works.

So you abort for windshear at Vr?.......who analyzes this in the 4 seconds between V1 and Vr?

Do whatever you want, Im more concerned in a thorough briefing than I am in anything else...and the brief should vary with conditions. I'm also sure you define "directional control"

On a 15,000ft runway in a business jet one can simply brief that they want to stop on anything before Vr (if they want)

But sorry, with most of the regular runways I use you wont find me aborting for a windshear at VR.

How about landing? You could be going around 10X on a real gusty winter day at my home airport (on a plateau) if you ran each time it yelled "windshear"

Its a never-ending debate, fly how you like and how your company likes...but planes will continue to go off the end of runways for items they could have easily landed with 5 mins later.

 

[pilotyip]

Its a never-ending debate, fly how you like and how your company likes...but planes will continue to go off the end of runways for items they could have easily landed with 5 mins later.

Until you have been there and done that, it is easy to Monday morning quarter back, and that is why CA's are paid the big bucks, to make those decisions, most guys get it right, some don't.

 

[Flying Biker]

Back to the subject of what can cause an automatic bust. There use to be an examiner around here that would bust you immediately for breaking the sterile cockpit rule. He would even try to get you to bust it by asking unimportant questions. One guy that was taking his ATP single was taxing out when the examiner asked him about what type of plane that was sitting on the ramp. When he answered, the examiner told him to taxi back. Immediate bust! That question was not pertinent to the flight so he busted him for answering instead of telling him to be quite unless it was something in regards to the flight.

 

[rettofly]

So you abort for windshear at Vr?.......who analyzes this in the 4 seconds between V1 and Vr?

Do whatever you want, Im more concerned in a thorough briefing than I am in anything else...and the brief should vary with conditions. I'm also sure you define "directional control"

On a 15,000ft runway in a business jet one can simply brief that they want to stop on anything before Vr (if they want)

But sorry, with most of the regular runways I use you wont find me aborting for a windshear at VR.

How about landing? You could be going around 10X on a real gusty winter day at my home airport (on a plateau) if you ran each time it yelled "windshear"

Its a never-ending debate, fly how you like and how your company likes...but planes will continue to go off the end of runways for items they could have easily landed with 5 mins later.

Not normally. This was a rapid 30 KT rollback of the airspeed drum with the mains about 5 ft AGL (Field elev 6600 or so). Airplane settled to the pavement with about 5000 ft of runway remaining. Got stopped about 100 ft past end of runway. I might have cleared the berm another 100 ft further, but then again, I might not.

 

[stupidpilot]

That is approaching loss of control, which is an emergency, use emergency authority do what you need to save the situation. How about both engines flame out at Vr? Worry about CYA after the fact. SOP is for normal procedures.

Did you miss the "if the aircraft is capable of flight" part? If both engines flame out or if you can't control it then why would you try to fly it?

 

[pilotyip]

Did you miss the "if the aircraft is capable of flight" part? If both engines flame out or if you can't control it then why would you try to fly it?

are you second guessing me?