automatic checkride busts - your opinions

[Rick1128]

As for raw data approaches, they are required for all 121 and 135 IFR checkrides. If the aircraft has a flight director, you will do at least 1 raw data approach, no matter what the MEL says. The MEL deals with leaving the gate. I have had FD's fail in flight, so I had no choice but to shoot a raw data approach.

Until the runway length is close to balance field length, V1 is an arbitrary number. Sometimes it is better to abort the takeoff than continue. Which would you rather do? Follow SOP and auger in just off the airport at redline. Or disregard SOP, abort the takeoff above V1 and go off the end of the runway at low speed?

Each situation is different and just because you did it that way the flight before, doesn't mean that you should do it that way on the next flight. That is why aircraft have pilots, not computers, making the decisions.

 

[2Inverted]

Why does the goose have to get the captain?

It's an advancement technique...

 

[stupidpilot]

are you second guessing me?

Yup!

 

[pilotyip]

Yup!

well at least we will sitting in the bar having a beer and talking about it, I am buying

 

[stupidpilot]

Sweet! See you next time I'm in Belleville!

 

[b19]

Where did this automatic thing even start ? A sky nazi ?

RE: Captain upgrade

Just getting a feel for what you guys consider "automatic checkride busts." This came up as a hangar discussion at our place a few days ago.

We agreed these were automatic, no-choice-but-fail items

1. Incorrect turn on Missed Approach
2. Exceeding a limitation and not immediately recognizing/correcting
3. Stall RECOVERY - improper/sloppy

some banter/non consensus occurred on

cockpit organization, charts, etc
stall entry (knowing the profile by memory or being able to use cheat sheet)

comments ?

Consistently exceeding tolerances stated in the TASK Objective, or failure to take prompt, corrective action when tolerances are exceeded, are indicative of unsatisfactory performance. The tolerances represent the performance expected in good flying conditions. Any action, or lack thereof, by the applicant which requires corrective intervention by the examiner to maintain safe flight shall be disqualifying.

When, in the judgment of the examiner, the applicant's performance of any TASK is unsatisfactory, the associated AREA OF OPERATION is failed and therefore the practical test is failed. Examiners shall not repeat TASKS that have been attempted and failed. The examiner or applicant may discontinue the test at any time after the failure of a TASK which makes the applicant ineligible for the certificate or rating sought. The practical test will be continued only with the consent of the applicant. In such cases, it is usually better for the examiner to continue with the practical test to complete the other TASKS. If the examiner determines that the entire practical test must be repeated, the practical test should not be continued but should be terminated immediately. If the practical test is either continued or discontinued, the applicant is entitled to credit for those TASKS satisfactorily performed. However, during a retest and at the discretion of the examiner, any TASK may be reevaluated including those previously passed. Whether the remaining parts of the practical test are continued or not after a failure, a notice of disapproval must be issued.

When the examiner determines that a TASK is incomplete, or the outcome uncertain, the examiner may require the applicant to repeat that TASK, or portions of that TASK. This provision has been made in the interest of fairness
and does not mean that instruction or practice is permitted during the certification process. When practical, the remaining TASKS of the practical test phase should be completed before repeating the questionable TASK. If the second attempt to perform a questionable TASK is not clearly satisfactory, the examiner shall consider it unsatisfactory.

If the practical test must be terminated for unsatisfactory performance and there are other TASKS which have not been tested or still need to be repeated, a notice of disapproval shall be issued listing the specific TASKS which have not been successfully completed or tested.

Okay opinions are like...

Did the above talk about "automatic busts", read the spirit of the thing, in it's entirety.

As to holding patterns - who cares how you entered, are you on the protected side, end of story.

The idiot playing gotcha with sterile cockpit, he probably shouldn't be giving rides.

And as to stall recovery the FAA just put out an FSO for 121 operators to say there is such a thing as acceptable loss of altitude on stalls so long as terrain is not a factor. The no loss of altitude was a misconception. You know a little comon sense, fly the jet, get some speed, recover.

Some, not all of these little airplane guys, (less than 300 tons) need to lighten up.

 

[dustrpilot]

Consistently exceeding tolerances stated in the TASK Objective, or failure to take prompt, corrective action when tolerances are exceeded, are indicative of unsatisfactory performance. The tolerances represent the performance expected in good flying conditions. Any action, or lack thereof, by the applicant which requires corrective intervention by the examiner to maintain safe flight shall be disqualifying.

When, in the judgment of the examiner, the applicant's performance of any TASK is unsatisfactory, the associated AREA OF OPERATION is failed and therefore the practical test is failed. Examiners shall not repeat TASKS that have been attempted and failed. The examiner or applicant may discontinue the test at any time after the failure of a TASK which makes the applicant ineligible for the certificate or rating sought. The practical test will be continued only with the consent of the applicant. In such cases, it is usually better for the examiner to continue with the practical test to complete the other TASKS. If the examiner determines that the entire practical test must be repeated, the practical test should not be continued but should be terminated immediately. If the practical test is either continued or discontinued, the applicant is entitled to credit for those TASKS satisfactorily performed. However, during a retest and at the discretion of the examiner, any TASK may be reevaluated including those previously passed. Whether the remaining parts of the practical test are continued or not after a failure, a notice of disapproval must be issued.

When the examiner determines that a TASK is incomplete, or the outcome uncertain, the examiner may require the applicant to repeat that TASK, or portions of that TASK. This provision has been made in the interest of fairness
and does not mean that instruction or practice is permitted during the certification process. When practical, the remaining TASKS of the practical test phase should be completed before repeating the questionable TASK. If the second attempt to perform a questionable TASK is not clearly satisfactory, the examiner shall consider it unsatisfactory.

If the practical test must be terminated for unsatisfactory performance and there are other TASKS which have not been tested or still need to be repeated, a notice of disapproval shall be issued listing the specific TASKS which have not been successfully completed or tested.

As to holding patterns - who cares how you entered, are you on the protected side, end of story.

The idiot playing gotcha with sterile cockpit shouldn't be giving rides.

And as to stall recovery the FAA just put out an FSO for 121 operators to say there is such a thing as acceptable loss of altitude on stalls so long as terrain is not a factor. The no loss of altitude was a misconception. You know a little comon sense, fly the jet, get some speed, recover.

Some, not all of these little airplane guys, (less than 300 tons) need to lighten up.

What he said.

From a lightened up little airplane guy!

 

[Pickle]

OK, found it....

As for raw data approaches, they are required for all 121 and 135 IFR checkrides. If the aircraft has a flight director, you will do at least 1 raw data approach, no matter what the MEL says.

From the 8900:

[FONT=&quot]5-832[/FONT] APPROACH EVENTS. The approaches described in this paragraph are required on all flight tests. They may be combined when appropriate.

[FONT=&quot]A.[/FONT] Instrument Landing System (ILS) or Microwave Landing System (MLS) Approaches. Inspectors and examiners shall require applicants to fly a minimum of one normal (all-engines operative) ILS or MLS. In addition, when multiengine airplanes are used, one manually controlled ILS or MLS with a powerplant failure is also required. When the flight test is conducted as a two-segment flight test, a manually controlled, normal ILS or MLS must be flown in the airplane segment of the flight test.

1) When the operator’s aircraft operating manual prohibits raw data approaches, the flight directors must be used during the manually control led ILS or MLS approaches. In this case, a raw data approach is not required to complete the flight test.

2) If the operator’s aircraft operating manual permits raw data ILS approaches to be conducted, the operator must provide training in the use of raw data for controlling an aircraft during ILS approaches. If the operator’s aircraft are equipped with a flight director system, the flight director must be used on at least one manually controlled ILS approach. While a raw data approach is not required to complete a flight test, inspectors and examiners should occasionally require a raw data approach to determine whether the operator’s training program is adequately preparing applicants.

Should does not = shall.

 

[BuckMurdock1]

Curious; is the upgrade candidate simply applying for a Pt. 91 type-rating? Does the applicant hold a Commercial? ATP? Commercial applying for ATP (+type rating)? Does the candidate already hold an aircraft type rating, but is applying COMM to ATP? I may be a bit naive as I've only trained/checked/flown professionally under 121 & 135 regs, but don't you only need a commercial cert. (+type rating for PIC) in the corporate jet world? Perhaps insurance always requires ATP these days..
Also; once the 'upgrade' has occurred (as in pilot gets type rating), is there an FAA-mandated recurrent 'jeopardy' checking event required?..or is it just what the company's insurance requires? Again-I apologize for my naivety, I only know what FAR/AIM says..but I can only guess that the 'real world' of corporate flying is always drived by insurance & bean counters with their own requirements, which are maybe even more stringent

 

[BuckMurdock1]

The reason I ask is that the original post indicates that they were 'sitting around a hangar' & discussing what they should bust people for. Are you DPEs? APDs? Or Pt. 91 self-designated company "check airman"..which I probably needn't tell you has no real "busting" authority. Most of the replies you seen on this threat have been factual proof-sources from various published FAA PTS, which is where the info should be referenced, IMO. I guess when you reference an "upgrade" checkride in the "corporate" section of FI, more info needs to be gathered. When you begin to elude to "cockpit organization; charts, etc" as a "must bust" item..and not perhaps a debriefing item..sounds kinda strange. (and frankly the kind of thing some ******************************y APD at some crap regional airline might pull if they decide they don't like a candidate).