Ati hiring

[Box-Hauler]

Did ATI send out new hire employee packages to all furloughed ABX people or just to the people they intend to hire, I am very junior and got a fedex package from ATI. Just wondering if its a true job offer or a union busting technique....

 

[mxer]

Box, I got one as well. You know where I am on the list. Don't get much more junior than that.

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

Did ATI send out new hire employee packages to all furloughed ABX people or just to the people they intend to hire, I am very junior and got a fedex package from ATI. Just wondering if its a true job offer or a union busting technique....

Box,

After a pretty bad response rate to the first notification, the front office mailed out to all names on the list. Not sure how you mean this could be a union bust technique.

FAJ

 

[MrSky]

Did ATI send out new hire employee packages to all furloughed ABX people or just to the people they intend to hire, I am very junior and got a fedex package from ATI. Just wondering if its a true job offer or a union busting technique....

Its a job offer, either reply or don't, we do not care!
We all have buddies on the street we would like to get on here at ATI but cannot until we run through your list.

No offence ment but if you think it's beneath you to take a job here at our pay and work rules... Please look elseware for work. We sure as heck don't need a bunch of whiners here pissed off because you think you got screwed by coming to ATI.

Its a job, take it or leave it!

 

[Box-Hauler]

FAJ,

Just wondering if they sent it out to junior guys (me) or it it went to everybody. I said union busting because it could cause a rift in the junior / senior ranks. You know typical ABX management crap, or as I call it "the usual".

 

[Box-Hauler]

Mr Sky,

No I do not thing working for ATI is beneath me. I got a letter of intent and was wondering how they made it down the 300 guys to me. I made no remarks about ATI, pay, benefits or any such items. I was inquiring about the letter and only the letter and the intent of filling 10 or 12 spots by sending a letter to a guy way down on the seniority list.

I am sure that any ABX pilot who comes to ATI will go gladly, knowing they will have a job. The advantage of being so far down on the ABX list is we all know the ABX dream is dead and have moved on. I hope that whomever ends up taking the position will be met with hospitality and open arms, we are all under the same screwball management team and need to remember who the true enemy is.

Pissing an moaning about items that are out of our immediate control only fosters the divide between pilot groups and I can assure you is all part of the plan.

 

[MrSky]

As I understand it we offered the most senior 50 on your furlough list an oppertunity to interview. And the word from management the responce was " Dismall", so an offer was put out to all on your list. If you guys don't respond, then we can help our guys get on.

My hope is that this is one time offer, if your number is up and you pass, your done. Otherwise this BS could go on for years. As I stated before, you guys should either take the job or pass so someone who wants to be here can!

But if you come here don't bitch about how much ATI $ucks and how much better ABX was. We've been hearing the "thats not the way we did it at xxx" crap for years and no one here want's to hear it at ATI. ATI is what it is, its not AA, ABX, ASTAR, or some Barbie Jet outfit, some things will be better some won't. Most of us here are reasonably happy, and it's where we want to stay, and we plan on making the best of it as long as the ride lasts.

If your coming here with good intentions, Welcome Aboard, otherwise do us all a favor, stay on unemployment, (99 weeks here in CA) untill you get your "Dream Job" you'll make us all happy.

Ok I'm off my soap box.... fire away

 

[reepicheep]

So it sounds like the openings will not be filled by interviewing off the street?

Why did they post the job on their website...They're really afraid that in this (no)hiring environment they're not gonna get enough ABX folks to choose ATI over unemployment?

 

[MrSky]

Aparently some of your guys think unemployment is better, who knows. The quicker we go through your list the better for everyone concerned.

There are some people here that were pretty pissed off that not only were ABX'ers given pref. Interviews but being hired at their longivety, but now the longevity thing is no longer in play I guess we'll see who really wants to be here.

 

[reepicheep]

Just to clarify I'm not a party to this situation - just tryin' to get a job.

 

[Box-Hauler]

There are some people here that were pretty pissed off that not only were ABX'ers given pref. Interviews but being hired at their longivety, but now the longevity thing is no longer in play I guess we'll see who really wants to be here.

The hiring of ABXers is a contractual thing that Joe Hete, the president of ATSG signed off on. I will say again, remember who the enemy is, it is not rank and file pilots, it is Joe and his band of merry men. Sky the sooner you realize this the safer your job will be.

As for longevity that again was signed off on by Joe. I understand your CP position is any new hires are payed at day one pay, but again Joe agreed to something different. This will be grieved, and a law suite filed, and in the end will come out in arbitration/court. I do find it odd that fellow pilots under one scumbag parent company would not want some type of flow through or job protection (remember cappi is lower paid than ATI) to fall back on. Anger at fellow pilots is not the answer, anger at the management group that put us all here is.

 

[MrSky]

The hiring of ABXers is a contractual thing that Joe Hete, the president of ATSG signed off on. I will say again, remember who the enemy is, it is not rank and file pilots, it is Joe and his band of merry men. Sky the sooner you realize this the safer your job will be.

As for longevity that again was signed off on by Joe. I understand your CP position is any new hires are payed at day one pay, but again Joe agreed to something different. This will be grieved, and a law suite filed, and in the end will come out in arbitration/court. I do find it odd that fellow pilots under one scumbag parent company would not want some type of flow through or job protection (remember cappi is lower paid than ATI) to fall back on. Anger at fellow pilots is not the answer, anger at the management group that put us all here is.

Your right about one thing, grievances will be filed by everyone under 12 years seniority on our side if that happens. It will end up in arbitration for years.

 

[Box-Hauler]

Exactly and there will be infighting and division amongst the group, gotta love it when a plan comes together.

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

The hiring of ABXers is a contractual thing that Joe Hete, the president of ATSG signed off on. I will say again, remember who the enemy is, it is not rank and file pilots, it is Joe and his band of merry men. Sky the sooner you realize this the safer your job will be.

As for longevity that again was signed off on by Joe. I understand your CP position is any new hires are payed at day one pay, but again Joe agreed to something different. This will be grieved, and a law suite filed, and in the end will come out in arbitration/court. I do find it odd that fellow pilots under one scumbag parent company would not want some type of flow through or job protection (remember cappi is lower paid than ATI) to fall back on. Anger at fellow pilots is not the answer, anger at the management group that put us all here is.

Box, you need to listen to your own advice and remember who your enemy is. From everything you posted it sounds like your fight is with Joe and your contract.

And it's not just our CP's position. Everyone on our property is against this. It is unresonable to try and hamstring another companies hiring practices. But to try and force said company to pay you at your previous longivity rate is a smack in the face to all at ATI. You must see that. Don't you??

Yes the plan is coming together. So why be a willing tool of it.

FAJ

 

[Box-Hauler]

FAJ,

I doubt you speak for all the ATI pilots seeing how you have been one for a very short time. Now if Sky were to say that, I would take it with a little more consideration. None the less I highly doubt all the pilots are against job protections that allow them to go from one sister company to another under the ATSG umbrella without a loss of pay or benefits.

How is it a "smack" at any ATI pilot if I am able to keep my pay / benefits while flying for the same scumbag managers. How do I "harm" any other pilot at ATI, my schedule is no better, I cannot out bid anyone, my weeks of vacation might be longer but I will only get them when other senior people dont want theirs.

Yes I do have a problem with our management team, and I am sure you will to once they start in on ATI. Remember CCI is way lower in pay than both of the other airlines. It would not take a huge leap of faith to see all flying going to them and would it not be nice to know that while you are looking for a better job you could at least make some money and stay current flying for them without a loss of years of service to ATI or ABX.

P.S. Look who is now the D.O./VP at CCI, an ABX chief pilot. Coincidence...... I think not, this debacle is long from over.

 

[l8fr82hub]

Box-Hauler, Do you think the contract that you folks negotiated with Hete overrides ATI's CBA? Coming in with longevity for pay and benefits clearly conflicts with our CBA. Also, introducing a lot of people with a lot of longevity while we're in the midst of negotiations will make it more difficult to get the deserved pay increases for the folks that have actually been working at ATI.

Hopefully Hete will just pay you guys the difference out of ATSG's budget.

I personally welcome any ABX folks that choose to join us, but they need to remember that its ATI, not ABX. We pretty much like the place the way it is.

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

FAJ,

How is it a "smack" at any ATI pilot if I am able to keep my pay / benefits while flying for the same scumbag managers. How do I "harm" any other pilot at ATI, my schedule is no better, I cannot out bid anyone, my weeks of vacation might be longer but I will only get them when other senior people dont want theirs.

If you're being paid above and beyond your longevity status at ATI then you're getting money from the same pot we are negotiating for. The result is a lessor contract for the rest of ATI while you're getting your inflated pay check at our expense. If you can't see how this would torque off anyone at any airline then there is nothing I can say but good luck with the grievance.

By the way, who exactly are you grieving against. We are not a party to your contract nor were we consulted during negotiations to the side letter. Your fight is with Joe. And like I said, good luck with that.

And I would add to l8fr82hub's comment about the money difference that it should come out of ABX's budget if it has to come from somewhere.

FAJ

 

[Box-Hauler]

"l8fr82hub's" has a fair point about the pay coming from ATI, but again it is all under the ATSG umbrella / budget. I do believe ATSG should make up the budget shortfall for those said pilots, but since we are only talking about 10 or 12 pilots, the argument of them costing the rest of ATI pilots a pay raise is really not valid. If that were a valid point you could use those 10 or 12 guys as a floor or a jumping off point for your starting pay for negotiation. Isn't there a saying about a rising tide lifting all boats.

I noticed you did not respond to the point of being able to carry years of service to other sister airlines. This is a great step forward in the aviation world. Just think if all 3 airlines had this. Joe has agreed to it once so a precedence has been set. Personally I would prefer one seniority list but that is a discussion for another thread, and both unions would have a cow over who gets the dues (isn't funny, its always about money).

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

"l8fr82hub's" has a fair point about the pay coming from ATI, but again it is all under the ATSG umbrella / budget. I do believe ATSG should make up the budget shortfall for those said pilots, but since we are only talking about 10 or 12 pilots, the argument of them costing the rest of ATI pilots a pay raise is really not valid. If that were a valid point you could use those 10 or 12 guys as a floor or a jumping off point for your starting pay for negotiation. Isn't there a saying about a rising tide lifting all boats.

I noticed you did not respond to the point of being able to carry years of service to other sister airlines. This is a great step forward in the aviation world. Just think if all 3 airlines had this. Joe has agreed to it once so a precedence has been set. Personally I would prefer one seniority list but that is a discussion for another thread, and both unions would have a cow over who gets the dues (isn't funny, its always about money).

Sorry. My position is it is not my wish to negotiate for such a fools errand if it would cost as much as a ABX poster eluded to in another post. It may be a great step in the aviation world. But I resent being stepped on to make it happen especially when my union had no say in it whatsoever.

And as for who should pay for this if it should come to pass? It should come out of ABX's budget since this is a provision in a CBA between the pilots of ABX and ABX Mgt. Frankly, as far as I'm concerned if ATI is being forced to hire ABX pilots because of a rule in an ABX contract, then their entire salary should be paid by ABX.

FAJ

 

[l8fr82hub]

10-12 pilots added to a group of only about 150 pilots is not an insignificant increase. More classes will likely follow increasing the net effect of increased crew costs. As far as using said pay rates to increase our pay I would say that we could use is to increase our pay to a point that the ACMI market will not bear, but then we'd be in the same unemployment line as you guys.

 

[abxflyr1]

I have to say it seems like too much dis-information is the culprit assisting the animosity created in this thread. I would like to add some color to the discussion for the sake of keeping factual information posted regarding this issue.

First, the ABX Side Letter – The agreement is with ATSG, not ATI. It was not free of charge, IBT moved from some scope positions for it. The details are not important nor are proper for this forum. ATI as a company is paying 1st year wages for new hires as they should, anything additional that ATSG agreed to is their responsibility and they will deal with it as such. It will not impact the negotiations for ALPA to enhance their goals.

Second, Will ATSG Pay or Not – This side letter is executed under the IBT CBA. It will be IBT’s issue with ATSG should there be any dispute (major for wages) regarding rates of pay. I personally do not believe it to be any problem as the CEO (Hete) has always indicated ATGS intention to honor their commitment.

Because of the initial issues associated with ALPA and ATI over the longevity carry over, Hete would like to change the terms of the deal to better satisfy his needs. He proposed alternatives to 1224, they have elected not pursue those options for various reasons. So, ATGS/Hete and everyone else will live with it…the good, bad, and ugly.

Third, Union Busting – Misinformed interpretation thru poor communication. ATI was forced into this issue with no option and no information. 50 or so recalls were sent out via ABX seniority. Most of that list is voluntary furloughs going to individuals who have employment else where and aren’t returning to ATI or ABX. So now ATI wasted their time (no fault of theirs) with the 1st go-round. Now recalls went to the entire furloughed list (expensive!). This moves to the heart of involuntary furloughs where plenty of people will avail themselves of this great opportunity.

ATI posted job openings on their web to get applicants who are interested in employment should they be unable to find adequate responses from ABX pilots to fill their needs. It’s only good business sense, not a violation of any law (especially the ABX CBA…that doesn’t even come into play) and it is wise to ensure they have people ready to fill their classes.

In closing, I for one will take advantage of this employment opportunity. I personally have reached out to several ATI current and former crewmembers on this and other forums for information. Each one of them has been extremely nice, willing to help, and appear to be good people that anyone would enjoy working with.

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

I have to say it seems like too much dis-information is the culprit assisting the animosity created in this thread. I would like to add some color to the discussion for the sake of keeping factual information posted regarding this issue.

First, the ABX Side Letter – The agreement is with ATSG, not ATI. It was not free of charge, IBT moved from some scope positions for it. The details are not important nor are proper for this forum. ATI as a company is paying 1st year wages for new hires as they should, anything additional that ATSG agreed to is their responsibility and they will deal with it as such. It will not impact the negotiations for ALPA to enhance their goals.

Second, Will ATSG Pay or Not – This side letter is executed under the IBT CBA. It will be IBT’s issue with ATSG should there be any dispute (major for wages) regarding rates of pay. I personally do not believe it to be any problem as the CEO (Hete) has always indicated ATGS intention to honor their commitment.

Because of the initial issues associated with ALPA and ATI over the longevity carry over, Hete would like to change the terms of the deal to better satisfy his needs. He proposed alternatives to 1224, they have elected not pursue those options for various reasons. So, ATGS/Hete and everyone else will live with it…the good, bad, and ugly.

Third, Union Busting – Misinformed interpretation thru poor communication. ATI was forced into this issue with no option and no information. 50 or so recalls were sent out via ABX seniority. Most of that list is voluntary furloughs going to individuals who have employment else where and aren’t returning to ATI or ABX. So now ATI wasted their time (no fault of theirs) with the 1st go-round. Now recalls went to the entire furloughed list (expensive!). This moves to the heart of involuntary furloughs where plenty of people will avail themselves of this great opportunity.

ATI posted job openings on their web to get applicants who are interested in employment should they be unable to find adequate responses from ABX pilots to fill their needs. It’s only good business sense, not a violation of any law (especially the ABX CBA…that doesn’t even come into play) and it is wise to ensure they have people ready to fill their classes.

In closing, I for one will take advantage of this employment opportunity. I personally have reached out to several ATI current and former crewmembers on this and other forums for information. Each one of them has been extremely nice, willing to help, and appear to be good people that anyone would enjoy working with.

A good sensible post.:beer: Kudos.
Although I (and I do admit that I have not personally seen the printed langauge) do believe that any financial liability the side letter creates should be borne by ABX in total. It's sort a like those "unfunded mandates" handed down by Washington that states and communities have to figure out how to pay for.

FAJ

 

[Sopwith C. Amel]

Box-Hauler:
You must not be very old. Quit your whining.
Ciao

 

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Ultimately, I see this issue as one that is good for our profession. It is precisely the type of arrangement that ALPA’s National Career Security Committee has recommended that be negotiated within carrier families and among carriers within holding companies. ALPA’s committee has astutely reasoned that if they can achieve these arrangements in their CBA’s it will defeat one of the tools used to shift work to reduce cost, and do further harm to our profession. Given that one of ALPA’s premiere and important committees has reached this conclusion, I do not understand why ALPA would not embrace our achievement. Especially when you consider that our agreement is reciprocal and will eventually benefit ATI and CCIA, and that repairing our profession is a long-term endeavor.

For those who decide to accept the ATI offer, be mindful of the potential controversy that your presence may inspire. It is our goal to have a productive relationship with the ATI crewmembers, ALPA and all unions for that matter. Keep in mind that this agreement takes nothing from any ATI crewmember, you go to the bottom of their seniority list, you have no other privilege that the ATI employee one number senior to you has other than the ability to carry over the faithful years of service that you dedicated to our common holding company.

 

[WYOMINGPILOT]

A good sensible post.:beer: Kudos.
Although I (and I do admit that I have not personally seen the printed langauge) do believe that any financial liability the side letter creates should be borne by ABX in total. It's sort a like those "unfunded mandates" handed down by Washington that states and communities have to figure out how to pay for.

FAJ

The costs are to be shouldered by ATSG not ABX. The ABX pilot will most likely receive 2 checks, one from ATI and one from ATSG, he/she will also get vacation as a 12 year ATI employee but will bid for vacation at their ATI seniority level.

 

[Box-Hauler]

Box-Hauler:
You must not be very old. Quit your whining.
Ciao

Where was I whining, I started my post by wondering how ATI sent a letter to a junior ABX furloughee to fill 10 spots. (see original post below)

"Did ATI send out new hire employee packages to all furloughed ABX people or just to the people they intend to hire, I am very junior and got a fedex package from ATI. Just wondering if its a true job offer or a union busting technique...."

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

The costs are to be shouldered by ATSG not ABX. The ABX pilot will most likely receive 2 checks, one from ATI and one from ATSG, he/she will also get vacation as a 12 year ATI employee but will bid for vacation at their ATI seniority level.

With respect, I have to disagree on the pay issue. If anything, the cost should be borne by ABX's budget. This is a mandate by the CBA between the pilots of ABXAir in the service of ABXAir. Your CBA is backed by ATSG as all our CBA's should be. But the costs should be borne by your sibling company. If you're really trying to make it cost prohibiative to shift work from your side of the fence to the other, then make it so your company bears the costs.

As for the vacation issue, again I disagree. You are a new hire, bid as a new hire. It's that simple. Tell me again how keeping your vaca accural is preventing the shift of flying from one side to another?

Ultimately, I see this issue as one that is good for our profession. It is precisely the type of arrangement that ALPA’s National Career Security Committee has recommended that be negotiated within carrier families and among carriers within holding companies. ALPA’s committee has astutely reasoned that if they can achieve these arrangements in their CBA’s it will defeat one of the tools used to shift work to reduce cost, and do further harm to our profession. Given that one of ALPA’s premiere and important committees has reached this conclusion, I do not understand why ALPA would not embrace our achievement. Especially when you consider that our agreement is reciprocal and will eventually benefit ATI and CCIA, and that repairing our profession is a long-term endeavor.

Wyomingpilot, you sound reasonable. So I ask you to look at it from our perspective. This was done unilaterally without any consultation with the other groups. All this while there was/is a gentleman's agreement between all three groups to keep each other apprised of events on their properties that might affect the others.

Repairing our profession is a long-term endeavor and a worthy goal. But it should not be borne on the backs of others and arranged in one sided back room deals.

As for reciprocity, I am only aware of what others from your group have posted. And that was a very flippant "well, you could always negotiate the same deal." If there is reciprocity language in the side letter please supply.

FAJ

 

[mxer]

FAJ, I understand some of your points. I mainly understand your point about the lack of communication in that your union was not consulted. However, at the time of the side letter, ATI was not hiring. This entire thread could just as easily been Capital instead of ATI. In hindsight, better communications would have been a great idea.

That being said, remember that the first step is always the hardest. If ABX has been able to take one step in protecting all under the ATSG umbrella, perhaps ATI can take steps two and three. Timing may actually be perfect as ATI is in negotiations at the time that the ABX side letter is being put in place. At least you shouldn't have management negotiators try to blow it off as "we don't really see it ever happening".

Keep in mind that in the long run ATI should get a major protection as well as ABX and, eventually, Capital. Whipsawing will be ineffective if each of the three companies are able to get this protection.

I do completely agree with you about the difference in pay should be covered by the appropriate budget.

I think you will find that any ABX guys that get hired by ATI are the same as the ATI pilots. Just good dudes that want to do a good job and feed the family. NONE will be looking to change ATI into a mirror of "this is how we did it at ABX". If someone uses that phrase it will probably be just as a differences comparison.

 

[abxflyr1]

The discussion on who should pay for what….it appears that what most *think* should occur, will.

- ATI’ers impart that any extra pay should not come from their company… and (as far as we have been told) it is not.
- ABX’ers does not care whether the source is ABX or ATSG.

ATSG will ultimately decide how their corporate accounting practices will applied at any subsidiary. As a guesstimate, ABX will most likely do the payroll/accounting work as that is physically where staff, payroll department, etc. is available to handle the process. How it will be displayed on quarterly reports, P/L, and so forth will continue to be ATSG’s decision.

The vacation issue has only been speculated on how it may be handled. Most likely it will be unpaid time-off from ATI that ATSG/ABX will pay accordingly to normal payroll procedures. Again, ATI will not pay a pilot more than the ALPA CBA rate.

WYOMINGPILOT’s post is a cut/paste (not entire) of an email sent to the 1224’s pilot group from their president. It is important to revile your source if you are going to be quoting emails like that, particularly in public..

Ultimately, I see this issue as one that is good for our profession. It is precisely the type of arrangement that ALPA’s National Career Security Committee has recommended that be negotiated within carrier families and among carriers within holding companies…..

.

 

[l8fr82hub]

he/she will also get vacation as a 12 year ATI employee but will bid for vacation at their ATI seniority level.

New hires get two week of vacation- period. It's very clear in our CBA and your side letter does not trump our CBA. ABX will need to pay you guys for the additional vacation time when they reconcile the pay difference.