ATI and ABX Merging

[727Niteflyer]

My understanding our scope is "supposed" to prevent our aircraft from being flown by another pilot group ie: ABX aircraft given to Cappy or ATI to use. Since the DHL mess our "runs" have been given to Astar over and over again, not much we could do about it and they certainly did not entertain the idea of not flying it.

wouldnt it be more accurate to say that the scope is in place to keep another pilot group from flying abx trips or freight.

If not it seems that they couldnt even sell abx aircraft to another cargo carrier.

I guess what Im asking is what would prevent abx from selling the aircraft to ati ? surely your scope couldnt stop this could it ?

 

[splatt]

It appears that ABX is now being set-up to go bankrupt. Scope that...

 

[erichartmann]

wouldnt it be more accurate to say that the scope is in place to keep another pilot group from flying abx trips or freight.

If not it seems that they couldnt even sell abx aircraft to another cargo carrier.

I guess what Im asking is what would prevent abx from selling the aircraft to ati ? surely your scope couldnt stop this could it ?

I don't recall the exact numbers, but if a certain percentage of the fleet is "sold" to ATI within a specified period of time then the crews can opt to go with the A/C.

As to if ABX crews would fly Cappy trips, on what basis do you suggest they refuse, particularly if you are not on strike? If Cappy "subcontracted" with ABX to have ABX fly a certain run would that be a violation of your scope? It would not violate ours. Would you refuse to fly a run for ABX if ABX "subcontracted" Cappy to fly a DHL trip or two, or perhaps a chater out of MIA that ABX couldn't cover? Some how I doubt it.

 

[erichartmann]

It appears that ABX is now being set-up to go bankrupt. Scope that...

The lawyers tell us that ABX alone cannot "go bankrupt", the structure of the company would require all of ATSG to file. This would have very undesireable consequences for the company as a whole.

 

[727Niteflyer]

I don't recall the exact numbers, but if a certain percentage of the fleet is "sold" to ATI within a specified period of time then the crews can opt to go with the A/C.

As to if ABX crews would fly Cappy trips, on what basis do you suggest they refuse, particularly if you are not on strike? If Cappy "subcontracted" with ABX to have ABX fly a certain run would that be a violation of your scope? It would not violate ours. Would you refuse to fly a run for ABX if ABX "subcontracted" Cappy to fly a DHL trip or two, or perhaps a chater out of MIA that ABX couldn't cover? Some how I doubt it.

I guess in a round about way thats my point. Everyone talks about whipsawing and playing one airline against the other my point is if they wanted to, they could. Nobody can do anything about it.

 

[b707guy]

I don't recall the exact numbers, but if a certain percentage of the fleet is "sold" to ATI within a specified period of time then the crews can opt to go with the A/C.

Does ABX still own the aircraft, or has ownership been transferred to CAM yet? If it hasn't happened yet, I wouldn't take any bets against it happening. And when it does, it'll happen fast. When the process hit us, we took a (minor) delay out of LAX to swap out ownership paperwork, they couldn't wait so bad!

So anyway, if X percentage of aircraft currently operated by ABX were to be transferred to ATI (and there's no indication at least from our end that that's in the works...), how are the crews enabled to opt to "go" with the aircraft? Does that mean that ATI would have to hire them on as a prerequisite for aircraft transfer. Remember, it wouldn't be a sale, if it were to take place, but CAM under ATSG shuffling their own aircraft.

 

[mxer]

I don't recall the exact numbers, but if a certain percentage of the fleet is "sold" to ATI within a specified period of time then the crews can opt to go with the A/C.




No way that could happen. Uniforms wouldn't match. JH wouldn't buy new ones and MV would have heart failure.

 

[727Niteflyer]

I don't recall the exact numbers, but if a certain percentage of the fleet is "sold" to ATI within a specified period of time then the crews can opt to go with the A/C.

As to if ABX crews would fly Cappy trips, on what basis do you suggest they refuse, particularly if you are not on strike? If Cappy "subcontracted" with ABX to have ABX fly a certain run would that be a violation of your scope? It would not violate ours. Would you refuse to fly a run for ABX if ABX "subcontracted" Cappy to fly a DHL trip or two, or perhaps a chater out of MIA that ABX couldn't cover? Some how I doubt it.

So if FEDEX bought 30 767's from ABX, how would they be forced to take the crews. Ive never heard of that.

 

[abxaviator]

It's sort of a pilots' poison pill, similiar to an executive's contract saying if his compnay is bought, the purchaser has to keep him.

 

[727flier]

sorry wrong edit button.

 

[727flier]

So lets ponder this...one company struggling, one company just took a strike vote, and the other not far behind but none the less the lowest paid of all three with pilots on welfare. Then add to that the fact that ATSG just got their pee pee slapped by the SEC for their stock being too low too long. Did I leave anything out of my synopsis of the situation?

 

[Jurasicpilot]

OUCH! Im glad your not my proctologist

 

[erichartmann]

So if FEDEX bought 30 767's from ABX, how would they be forced to take the crews. Ive never heard of that.

Our CBA requires the company to negotiate our transfer to the new owner. I recall it happened some years ago with other carriers. Pan Am & ? perhaps.

 

[erichartmann]

So lets ponder this...one company struggling, one company just took a strike vote, and the other not far behind but none the less the lowest paid of all three with pilots on welfare. Then add to that the fact that ATSG just got their pee pee slapped by the SEC for their stock being too low too long. Did I leave anything out of my synopsis of the situation?

I don't think that was the SEC, it was NASDAQ. It takes a year for the whole delisting process if all the options are played out. Then ATSG becomes a "penny stock" listed in the pink sheets.

 

[Jurasicpilot]

Actually I believe Kitty Hawk pilots went with there aircraft when Kalitta bought the planes back after the CH11 filling. Im not sure of the Pan Am deal.

 

[727flier]

Thanks,
I work for Capital and do not make enough money to be too well versed on the stock market....LOL

 

[FastHap]

You guys ready to talk yet?

 

[l8fr82hub]

Too late.

 

[FastHap]

Too late.

Well, if you guys think you are better off going it alone, then who am I to argue.

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

Well, if you guys think you are better off going it alone, then who am I to argue.

Let me get this straight.

A man in a grey suit walks up to the ATI union hall and knocks on the door:

KNOCK KNOCK "Hey, Hi guys. I was just in the neighbor hood and thought I'd introduce myself. I'm the guy who just toootalllly hosed your group and your contract. I know, I know. I said I would call and keep y'all up to date and all. But hey, stuff happens right?? So what do you say and let me in. I'd really like to sit down and hum a few bars of Kum BY Ya with you all."


I think that's what l8fr82hub means by "Too Late". It''s kinda like "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice........ .

FAJ

 

[FastHap]

I think that's what l8fr82hub means by "Too Late". It''s kinda like "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice........ .

FAJ

"What we do about history matters. The often repeated saying that those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them has a lot of truth in it. But what are 'the lessons of history'? The very attempt at definition furnishes ground for new conflicts. History is not a recipe book; past events are never replicated in the present in quite the same way. Historical events are infinitely variable and their interpretations are a constantly shifting process. There are no certainties to be found in the past."

Gerda Lerner

Local 747, under the rule of Gene Sewell, and ATI cut a deal to take the Australia flying away from ABX. Now, ABX and Local 1224 are being accused of inappropriate actions in looking out for it's furloughed crew-members.

I'm far more interested in what happens today and tomorrow, than what occurred yesterday.

 

[l8fr82hub]

So ABX was flying for Qantas before ATI?

 

[b707guy]

Local 747, under the rule of Gene Sewell, and ATI cut a deal to take the Australia flying away from ABX.

Obviously, we need some enlightenment. What Australia flying, EXACTLY, did we cut a deal to take away from ABX?

 

[FastHap]

So ABX was flying for Qantas before ATI?

No.

ABX Air had been in negotiations with Qantas since early 2007. Sewell cut the deal to take it.

You can call it what ever you like. That's the way the ABX guys and gals see it.

 

[l8fr82hub]

Pretty twisted perspective.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. If ATI secures a contract it's whipsawing and if ABX negotiates a concessionary contract it's an effort to "to stop this practice and reverse the decline of our profession" (quote from Muckle's letter to ABX crewmembers).

Is that about right? This all seems pretty one-sided to me. Please do tell me where I've got it wrong and while you're at it how about a peek a that side letter which supposedly gives ATI and CCI crewmembers reciprocal rights to be recalled to ABX?

 

[nitefr8dog]

Pretty twisted perspective.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. If ATI secures a contract it's whipsawing and if ABX negotiates a concessionary contract it's an effort to "to stop this practice and reverse the decline of our profession" (quote from Muckle's letter to ABX crewmembers).

Is that about right? This all seems pretty one-sided to me. Please do tell me where I've got it wrong and while you're at it how about a peek a that side letter which supposedly gives ATI and CCI crewmembers reciprocal rights to be recalled to ABX?

And who do think allowed ATI to secure the Qantas flying? Nothing happens unless Joe H. wants it to. ATI was awarded the contact at a time when contract talks at ABX where at a standstill. If you cannot see whipsawing like that watch out! ATI will get exactly what Joe is willing to give and that is all. When the Qantas flying comes over to ABX and you park a 767 do not be too surprised.

 

[l8fr82hub]

Does Qantas not have any say in who they award their contracts to?

 

[dsee8driver]

When the Qantas flying comes over to ABX and you park a 767 do not be too surprised.

Pass the Kool Aid!!

 

[FastHap]

Air Transport Services Group Inc. Q4 2009 Earnings Call Transcript

From SeekingAlpha.com :

Operator
(Operator Instructions) Your first question comes from Helene Becker – Jessup & Lamont.

.... {First three questions and responses skipped} ....

Helene Becker – Jessup & Lamont
With the pilot agreement now everything is done and everything is behind you on the labor side?

Joe Hete
As far as the ABX crew is concerned that is correct but we are still in negotiations with our other two airlines, ATI and Capital Cargo’s flight crews.

Helene Becker – Jessup & Lamont
Any finding on that?

Joe Hete
They continue to go through the negotiation process. They’re both involving Federal mediators at this point in time, but would not get into predicting when and if we could potentially get an agreement. I think the one good thing is for the first time ever from ABX’s perspective is, the agreement we got with the flight crews is five years going forward. Historically we’d get five year agreements but by the time we inked them, two years had already elapsed so we only looked at three years of going forward labor piece so to speak.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/196...-earnings-call-transcript?source=yahoo&page=7

My emphasis in red.

 

[shooter]

Emotions are contagious and a weakness. When a dynamic situation is presented, as all 3 airlines have been thrust into, it is the calmer cooler heads that will prevail. Once the emotions control for one it is a victory of divide and conquer. Each can fight for their own survival if they choose. But when you build your house, you have 3 pillars. Put them too close together it becomes weak and frail. Put them too far apart and your house will fall in upon itself. But placed properly apart you can carry an enormous load, together. Good luck to all of you guys and best of luck. Sounds like you will need it.

My paycheck comes from an ATSG bank account too.