ATI and ABX Merging

[727Niteflyer]

So what you are saying is that it would be alright for all of the 8's to go on the ABX certificate and have ABX fly them? I think that is why it would be in the best interest for the groups to become one. Although the company would not want that to happen, of course. Your shoes, they just own the field you want to run on. You guys know how this game works. No skin off my teeth.

I didnt say anything about it being alright. All three companies are going to exist to serve the needs of ATSG. How the airplanes get moved around is really out of our hands.

ATI is still going to do bax and military charters, it has its buisness, Capital has its buisness with BAX and DHL, and ABX will have their buisness. I dont think ABX will be able to operate all of its aircraft in a charter market. If they can Im sure they will. But if their is a surplus and ATI has a need for the military or something like that, Im sure the surplus aircraft will be moved over there.

Its not to ATSGs advantage just to shut down one carrier and wrap all the assests up into the remaing carrier.

 

[727Niteflyer]

Dual qual aircraft. Could be just as easy to put the 75's on ATI or ABX certificate. And they already are putting the groups against each other. Part of the selling you speak of.

I think we can agree that capital is the cheaper airline to operate. If they really wanted to pit one against the other they would put the 76s on capitals certificate. Thats not happening.

Fox has owned the 76s for several (probably about 3) years. They were always slated for ATI. Never had intentions of putting them on with Capital. If he wanted to operate the aircraft on the cheaper certificate he could have. If he wanted to grow the cheaper airline he could have.

Capital has had a contract for a couple of years for 6 75s out of MIA. 2 would be operated in Capital colors 4 in DHL colors operated by central american crews. This hasnt changed. Unless Bax has an interest or they find along term contract for another, 2 75s are all we are getting.

 

[l8fr82hub]

This has apparently already happened, check into the "real" story of the new company AMX Cargo, based in Miami.

Well I guess that explains our new, and unwanted, MIA base.

 

[FastHap]

If ATSG really wanted to pit everyone against each other they could put a 76 on capitals ops specs. We already have a 75, really how hard would be to add a 76. Fact is since CHI has been formed neither capital nor ati have been pitted against each other in any way. We dont even share ground support in the out stations. Completely separate. Thats why I do believe ABX will be kept seperate, with its own operation.

There's this company in Atlanta, Ford and Harrison LLP http://www.fordharrison.com/showarea.aspx?Show=546 , their bread and butter is this kind of stuff.

All 3 airlines are currently in contract negotiations. ABX's new contract will be concessionary, and will pretty much have to be in place shortly after DHL/DPWN pulls the plug. Any bets on how soon the carrots start getting dangled and the downward race begins?

Thankfully, David Bourne said he's not going to let that happen between ATI and ABX.

 

[shooter]

I think we can agree that capital is the cheaper airline to operate. If they really wanted to pit one against the other they would put the 76s on capitals certificate. Thats not happening.

Fox has owned the 76s for several (probably about 3) years. They were always slated for ATI. Never had intentions of putting them on with Capital. If he wanted to operate the aircraft on the cheaper certificate he could have. If he wanted to grow the cheaper airline he could have.

Capital has had a contract for a couple of years for 6 75s out of MIA. 2 would be operated in Capital colors 4 in DHL colors operated by central american crews. This hasnt changed. Unless Bax has an interest or they find along term contract for another, 2 75s are all we are getting.

You are right. I hope the best for all involved. Just playing what if's. Much like your contract language that is there for what could happen. If it already has happened or in the works, you are already screwed and can't stop the momentum.

 

[727Niteflyer]

Every thing is what ifs. Nobody knows, except we can all agree that some of these ceo's are really screwed up individuals that should be in jail.

All Im saying is that capital could have been pitted against ati a long time ago. It didnt happen. I dont think it would take ford & harrison to figure out how easy it would be to pit us against each other.

I just dont think thats the plan

 

[727flier]

Would the ABX bro's fly our freight if ATI or Cappy go on strike (definitely possible)? Maybe it wont come to that but it's a question we have to ask. What say the prophet leader "David Bourne" or "David Koresh" whoever this guy is.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Every thing is what ifs. Nobody knows, except we can all agree that some of these ceo's are really screwed up individuals that should be in jail.

All Im saying is that capital could have been pitted against ati a long time ago. It didnt happen. I dont think it would take ford & harrison to figure out how easy it would be to pit us against each other.

I just dont think thats the plan

Again, you need to become more familar with your "new" boss JH.

 

[727Niteflyer]

Again, you need to become more familar with your "new" boss JH.

maybe Im wrong but couldnt JH just take the stance that astar is taking and shut the doors on ABX move all the aircraft to capital or ati and let them chase contracts ?

If he really wanted to make money he could shift the aircraft to capital (by far the cheaper labor group) and operate that way. Wouldnt even cost much to get the 76s on the certificate.

 

[LIGHTDRIVER]

What makes everyone think ABX pilots are in any hurry to end up ATI or Cappy's list or at your pay scales.When it is all said and done most of us would quit rather than work for half. You are going to be bidding on the same work ABX is while flying mostly 3 man and 3-4 engine gas hogs. The plan at ABX is 25 to 30 767 with cargo doors. We already have 19. With some adjustment to work rules ie: 13 days off instaed of 15 no more sick no charge while on reserve, 401k only instead of a DB plan, my pay remains the same and ABX can still be cheaper than most operators out there. Watchout what you wish for, if you do not think ATSG is not going to play us off each other you better get your know your new boss better.

Still not cheaper than Cappy. 727 burns less fuel than 767. Domestic loads are perfect fit for the aircraft size. Aircraft are relatively young and in good shape. Parts are free. Labor is cheap. Performance is outstanding. 757 will replace the 727, not the 767. You just cant undercut this scumbag outfit. At least thats what i've been hearing. Very Very sad!!!!

 

[fob727]

Still not cheaper than Cappy. 727 burns less fuel than 767. Domestic loads are perfect fit for the aircraft size. Aircraft are relatively young and in good shape. Parts are free. Labor is cheap. Performance is outstanding. 757 will replace the 727, not the 767. You just cant undercut this scumbag outfit. At least thats what i've been hearing. Very Very sad!!!!

Scumbags?? I have met a number of the pilots and it was a pleasure to tip a few with them.

 

[727flier]

uh oh,
See there, your stating the obvious, and nobody is going to want to hear that. Sounds like that David "who the heck ever" he is, has these guys convinced that JH has to check with the Union before taking a dump....I personally don't think it will ever work that way again. I also think those days of the third highest paid pilots in the industry have come and gone also. Just my opinion.

 

[727Niteflyer]

uh oh,
See there, your stating the obvious, and nobody is going to want to hear that. Sounds like that David "who the heck ever" he is, has these guys convinced that JH has to check with the Union before taking a dump....I personally don't think it will ever work that way again. I also think those days of the third highest paid pilots in the industry have come and gone also. Just my opinion.

I agree. Just like capital had to compete against cat, kalletta charters, and expressnet, abx is now going to compete against tradewinds, world, arrow, etc...

Everybody beats their chest at how we wont work for less, just wait when you have to pay your mortgage and provide for your family.

Never say never, been there done it, not proud of it.

 

[LIGHTDRIVER]

Scumbags?? I have met a number of the pilots and it was a pleasure to tip a few with them.

Not a reference towards the crews. Sorry.

 

[727flier]

I agree. Just like capital had to compete against cat, kalletta charters, and expressnet, abx is now going to compete against tradewinds, world, arrow, etc...

Everybody beats their chest at how we wont work for less, just wait when you have to pay your mortgage and provide for your family.

Never say never, been there done it, not proud of it.

EXACTLY!!!!!
What if that "Jesus" guy (who ever he is you have running your union) says "guys we have to work for half" or even worse Cappy's pay scale, what will you do? The mortgage is due and the kids need new clothes, oh yeah the power bill is due and the car is broke. Preaching to the choir I hope, but this is a REAL possibility for you guys. What would the majority do? I suspect they would bow their heads and run the "Before Starting Engines Checklist" just like their told to do. Like a guy said in another post"everything looks different according to which side of the fish bowl your on".

Just my opinion

 

[Clipperskip]

furn burns

Still not cheaper than Cappy. 727 burns less fuel than 767. Domestic loads are perfect fit for the aircraft size. Aircraft are relatively young and in good shape. Parts are free. Labor is cheap. Performance is outstanding. 757 will replace the 727, not the 767. You just cant undercut this scumbag outfit. At least thats what i've been hearing. Very Very sad!!!!

Dear Lightdriver,

I've flown both the B727-200 and the B767-200F. The furn burns are nearly the same. The 767 carries up to 100K lbs the B727 significantly less (maybe 60K lbs). Lets not forget the extra crewmember on the B727. I think that the B757, and not the B767, is considered the a logical replacement for the B727 more due to its simular cargo capabilities not neccessarily fuel burns. Obviously the B757's operating economics are more attractive than the B727 but its cargo capabilities are comparable.

 

[nitefr8dog]

EXACTLY!!!!!
What if that "Jesus" guy (who ever he is you have running your union) says "guys we have to work for half" or even worse Cappy's pay scale, what will you do? The mortgage is due and the kids need new clothes, oh yeah the power bill is due and the car is broke. Preaching to the choir I hope, but this is a REAL possibility for you guys. What would the majority do? I suspect they would bow their heads and run the "Before Starting Engines Checklist" just like their told to do. Like a guy said in another post"everything looks different according to which side of the fish bowl your on".

Just my opinion

We already turned the first post DHL offer down $150 per hour for 767 captains. We do not have to work for Cappy pay to be more cost effective. Let's see 767 fuel burn 9000lbs an hour, 2 man crew, 100k payload, 7+ hrs range. Most of the flying will be in Central and South America. If you sharpen your pencil my guess is ABX is already the most cost effective. Now change some work rules, stop the DB plan. And ABXis cheaper than everyone without any other changes. JH already knows this or he would have been buying 727's the last 10 years instead of 767's.

 

[727Niteflyer]

We already turned the first post DHL offer down $150 per hour for 767 captains. We do not have to work for Cappy pay to be more cost effective. Let's see 767 fuel burn 9000lbs an hour, 2 man crew, 100k payload, 7+ hrs range. Most of the flying will be in Central and South America. If you sharpen your pencil my guess is ABX is already the most cost effective. Now change some work rules, stop the DB plan. And ABXis cheaper than everyone without any other changes. JH already knows this or he would have been buying 727's the last 10 years instead of 767's.

Thats why I said abx is going to find its own niche. No pitting one against the other and your not going to find a 76 in the bax system.

One of the problems that you will have with that big fuel efficient aircraft that flys 7 + hours and carries 100k of frieght is that its expensive. Got a big payment everymonth. The bax system is inefficient in that the aircraft maybe average 6 hours a day 4 days a week. Thats why 76s or 75s wont work in the bax system.

Im sure ABX will secure some contracts. But like I said the competition is going to be like aircraft, ones with longer range that can carry 100k freight. And in the charter world that freight doesnt carry the price tag of the overnight packages. Bulk freight is priced much differently.

If you look at the new generation aircraft that fly out of miami, ups 75s, 76s, lan 76s, those aircraft fly constantly round the clock. Even the challenge 75s years ago went nonstop around the clock.

Im sure ABX will find contracts. But I dont think ABX can compete against the likes of centurion, arrow, tradewinds, etc...

 

[FastHap]

Thats why I said abx is going to find its own niche. No pitting one against the other and your not going to find a 76 in the bax system.

One of the problems that you will have with that big fuel efficient aircraft that flys 7 + hours and carries 100k of frieght is that its expensive. Got a big payment everymonth. The bax system is inefficient in that the aircraft maybe average 6 hours a day 4 days a week. Thats why 76s or 75s wont work in the bax system.

I predict you will see a 767-200 freighter in Toledo flying the BAX/Schenker system very soon.

In the Jul 1st ATSG earnings conference call http://www.earnings.com/company.asp?ticker=ATSG&coid=146387&client=cb , Peter Fox was asked by an analyst if BAX/Schenker had been approached about using 767's in their system. As you mentioned the 4 day utilization was brought up as an issue. Mr. Fox went on further to say that certain city pairs would be able to have and aircraft in the BAX/Shenker system during the week, and fly charter work on the weekends. LAX is my bet on the first city.

Now, the $64,000 question is will it be an ATI plane, or an ABX?

Some further reading if you really want a flavor of what is to come. http://seekingalpha.com/symbol/ABXA/transcripts

 

[nitefr8dog]

Thats why I said abx is going to find its own niche. No pitting one against the other and your not going to find a 76 in the bax system.

One of the problems that you will have with that big fuel efficient aircraft that flys 7 + hours and carries 100k of frieght is that its expensive. Got a big payment everymonth. The bax system is inefficient in that the aircraft maybe average 6 hours a day 4 days a week. Thats why 76s or 75s wont work in the bax system.

Im sure ABX will secure some contracts. But like I said the competition is going to be like aircraft, ones with longer range that can carry 100k freight. And in the charter world that freight doesnt carry the price tag of the overnight packages. Bulk freight is priced much differently.

If you look at the new generation aircraft that fly out of miami, ups 75s, 76s, lan 76s, those aircraft fly constantly round the clock. Even the challenge 75s years ago went nonstop around the clock.

Im sure ABX will find contracts. But I dont think ABX can compete against the likes of centurion, arrow, tradewinds, etc...

I guess you missed my point about droping to Cappy pay scales. Really not that hard to figure out. Wherever or however ABX puts the 767 it really is cheaper to run than than the 727 and hauls more. Divide the 3 crew pay into the 2 crew pay our hourly wage stays the same.