ATI and ABX Merging

[727Niteflyer]

prior to CHI being formed, all of our airplanes were owned by capital cargo or by the investors of capital and leased to capital cargo. After the pegasus deal cam was formed and all the aircraft were reregistered to 727 1 or something like that. Than it was discovered a company called 767 aircraft 1 was formed with the same address as capitalcargo. Thats how we found out we officially owned 5 767s.

Than of course cam was formed, than chi and etc..

It wouldnt surprise me if ABX isnt going to directly own their aircraft in the future. Im sure cam will take custody of the aircraft like they have all the aircraft. this gives ATSG the ability to do with what they please a little easier.

CAM is the aircraft management, buying and direct owner of all the aircraft for ATSG.

CAM will assimilate all ABX aircraft. Resistance is futile.

 

[penguin22]

Air Transport International LLC and Capitol Cargo International Airlines "own" no aircraft, all of the planes they fly are "owned" by Cargo Aircraft Management, Inc. (CAM).

ABX Air on the the other hand owns all of it's aircraft except five that are on bank leases from Wells Fargo, etc., and apparently N714AX owned by CAM.

OK so think of it another way. Career expectations.

ATI and Cappy already had those 767s and 757s purchased for them before ABX Holdings came along and bought CHI. (somebody correct me if I'm wrong here) And ATI and Cappy pilots always had the expectations to end up flying them.

Think how you would react if an -AX tail number ended up being flown by one of the other guys. Pretty much the same reaction I'd have, I suspect.

The quickest way to get all 3 pilots groups at war with one another is to suggest they may not end up flying what they consider as "their" airplanes. Let's not play into Joe's hand here.

 

[727flier]

I agree with you, but we have to have our unions working together to make sure this doesn't happen. I am sure they have spoken with each other on this issue. Teamsters and ALPA have seen this before. This is (if I'm not mistaken) how Atlas and Polar operated at first. They were both ALPA so I don't know if it's different with two labor unions.

 

[727Niteflyer]

so I guess if ATSG were to move all of cappys 72s over to ABX the ABX pilots would stand up and say they are flying them ?

my second question is, if ATI and Cappy were planning on getting 75s and 76s prior to any of this happening, and lets say ABX through no fault of thier own is going to be downsized from 50 76s to 30 76s, and lets say 10 of the 76s that ABX doesnt have work for are going to be shifted to ATI for thier military charters or to replace some of the dc8s this is a problem ?

 

[shooter]

my second question is, if ATI and Cappy were planning on getting 75s and 76s prior to any of this happening, and lets say ABX through no fault of thier own is going to be downsized from 50 76s to 30 76s, and lets say 10 of the 76s that ABX doesnt have work for are going to be shifted to ATI for thier military charters or to replace some of the dc8s this is a problem ?

If all 3 airlines become 1, that question would prove moot, right? As far as CAM owning the aircraft and leasing them back, that is going to happen no matter what you guys decide you want to do. Nothing better than cutting a profit from your own work, for doing nothing more than paying yourself for your own property. Reduce tax liability on one unit and keep more money "in house".

 

[727Niteflyer]

I guess thats my whole point. CAM is going to move aircraft around to meet the needs of ATSG regardless of what the pilot groups think.

Ill go back to my first post, merging the 3 companys, especially the pilot groups, is not going to happen.

 

[penguin22]

so I guess if ATSG were to move all of cappys 72s over to ABX the ABX pilots would stand up and say they are flying them ?

my second question is, if ATI and Cappy were planning on getting 75s and 76s prior to any of this happening, and lets say ABX through no fault of thier own is going to be downsized from 50 76s to 30 76s, and lets say 10 of the 76s that ABX doesnt have work for are going to be shifted to ATI for thier military charters or to replace some of the dc8s this is a problem ?

If it were up to me, the pilots would follow the jets. If cappy 727s get moved to ABX, the pilots move with them. If ABX 767s get moved to ATI, the pilots move with them. Hopefully, at some point we’d all become one airline in which, as shooter says, the question is moot.

The bigger question is who will end up flying aircraft yet to be bought. With 3 separate airlines, ATSG can pit one against the other for the prize. With one airline, again, the question is moot. Therein lies the biggest reason to merge, IMHO.

 

[727Niteflyer]

I dont think that abx, capital or ati is going to bid any contracts. I think ATSG is going to bid the contracts or offer the services of all 3 carriers, the contract is going to be given to the carrier most suited for the contract.

ATSG is one company that can provide a varied support of a companies charter needs (if that makes since).

IMHO ABX is going to exist as a small charter company just like ATI and Cappy. Whether its 1 airplane or 20 its going to be whatever kind of work ATSG can get for it. ATSG is not going to pit ATI 76s against ABX 76s. The prices for a 76 is going to be set by ATSG to charter. IMHO.

Look at the relationship of bax, cappy and cargojet. Bax needed cargojet to do calgary which capital was doing. Bax gave it to them but capital was able to negotiate a deal with cargo jet that allowed it to operate a cargojet contract to bermuda. It was a trade. Cargojet gained or lost nothing, Capital gained nor lost, Bax Gained cause they needed the canadian lift for the trip.

 

[penguin22]

You know, if that's the way things end up, that'd be just fine.

But I'll just add one comment here... It's Joe Hete that's running ATSG, and I've known him for 25 years. Just keep your eyes open, OK?

 

[FastHap]

CAM will assimilate all ABX aircraft. Resistance is futile.

I'm not saying this can't happen, and you're right that it probably will eventually. The only problem is it would be a scope violation of our current contract.

b) Neither the Company nor its Affiliates shall conclude a sale,
lease, transfer or any other disposition, whether directly or
indirectly, of any aircraft on the Company’s Operations
Specifications (“OpSpecs”) to any Entity under the control
of the Company or any of its affiliates that, upon acquisition,
uses the equipment to provide air cargo service to the Company or in competition with it.​

 

[FastHap]

ATSG is not going to pit ATI 76s against ABX 76s.

This has apparently already happened, check into the "real" story of the new company AMX Cargo, based in Miami.

 

[rotor&wing]

This has apparently already happened, check into the "real" story of the new company AMX Cargo, based in Miami.

AMX Cargo Launched
8/11/2008
Thomas L. Gallagher
Web Editor

Aeromexpress Cargo launched a U.S. subsidiary linking Miami to Central America and the Caribbean.
The new company, known as AMX Cargo, branches out from the joint venture owned by Mexico's two largest airlines, Aeromexico and Mexicana.
Miami-based AMX made its first flight from Miami to San Juan Airport in Puerto Rico and to Las Americas Airport in Santo Domingo and back to Miami on July 31. Through a strategic alliance with Air Transport Services Group, the carrier has the use of a fleet of 767-200 freighters operated by ABX Air and Air Transport International.
The airline will operate its initial route three times per week. Central America operations will start on Aug. 13, serving Costa Rica and Guatemala daily and Panama twice weekly. Daily belly service from MIA-MEX will be offered on passenger aircraft of Aeromexico and Mexicana effective August 15.
Jaime Silva will be the CEO of AMX Cargo with Juan Rodriquez, CEO of Aeromexpress Cargo, as chairman of the new company.

 

[shooter]

I guess thats my whole point. CAM is going to move aircraft around to meet the needs of ATSG regardless of what the pilot groups think.

Ill go back to my first post, merging the 3 companys, especially the pilot groups, is not going to happen.

So what you are saying is that it would be alright for all of the 8's to go on the ABX certificate and have ABX fly them? I think that is why it would be in the best interest for the groups to become one. Although the company would not want that to happen, of course. Your shoes, they just own the field you want to run on. You guys know how this game works. No skin off my teeth.

 

[727Niteflyer]

so whats the real story ? AMX cargo is in dealings with ATSG. ATI nor ABX bid on this. ATSG is going to provide the charter needs.

If ATSG really wanted to pit everyone against each other they could put a 76 on capitals ops specs. We already have a 75, really how hard would be to add a 76. Fact is since CHI has been formed neither capital nor ati have been pitted against each other in any way. We dont even share ground support in the out stations. Completely separate. Thats why I do believe ABX will be kept seperate, with its own operation.

 

[shooter]

so whats the real story ? AMX cargo is in dealings with ATSG. ATI nor ABX bid on this. ATSG is going to provide the charter needs.

If ATSG really wanted to pit everyone against each other they could put a 76 on capitals ops specs. We already have a 75, really how hard would be to add a 76. Fact is since CHI has been formed neither capital nor ati have been pitted against each other in any way. We dont even share ground support in the out stations. Completely separate. Thats why I do believe ABX will be kept seperate, with its own operation.

Dual qual aircraft. Could be just as easy to put the 75's on ATI or ABX certificate. And they already are putting the groups against each other. Part of the selling you speak of.