ATI and ABX Merging

[727Niteflyer]

I guess you missed my point about droping to Cappy pay scales. Really not that hard to figure out. Wherever or however ABX puts the 767 it really is cheaper to run than than the 727 and hauls more. Divide the 3 crew pay into the 2 crew pay our hourly wage stays the same.

I agree it is cheaper to operate. But you have to operate the aircraft so many hours to pay for itself. If you had a contract flying 300 hours a month ( just pulling numbers) it would be viable to have a 75 or 76. But if a contract is only flying 150 hours than a 75 or 76 would be sitting around to much. It wouldnt pay for itself.

Now I do stand corrected about the bax system. Their is certain lines that probably would be good for a 75 or 76. LA is one and I know office people told us that if we did put a 75 in bax than it would probably do Mexico. Again its hours of utilization. Not how much it burns or how many crewmembers are on it.

The line is how many hours it operates a month. That figures aircraft lease, maintenance, fuel and crew. The more utilization, the nicer airplane pays for itself.

I would have guessed that if a 76 was coming to toledo it would be ATI. But I dont think anyone knows what the 76s are going to do with ATI to begin with. Mybe they have committments for them overseas, in that case maybe ABX would be in TOL.

 

[LIGHTDRIVER]

I guess you missed my point about droping to Cappy pay scales. Really not that hard to figure out. Wherever or however ABX puts the 767 it really is cheaper to run than than the 727 and hauls more. Divide the 3 crew pay into the 2 crew pay our hourly wage stays the same.

First of all you could double the entire cappy crew pay scale and the labor would still be cheaper with 3, yes 3 crewmembers. The planes are paid for, the parts are freeeeeeeee, and fuel burn is a wash compared to the 767. Long haul the 767 is more efficient. Yes it can carry alot more, but with Bax domestic loads the 767 would lose money.Short haul lighter loads, this is the perfect set up for the 727. The profit margins are mind blowing. No contest in this arena, and by the way Jh aquired the 767s over the years, but aquired 14 727s in one day. Still very viable for years to come.

 

[727Niteflyer]

First of all you could double the entire cappy crew pay scale and the labor would still be cheaper with 3, yes 3 crewmembers. The planes are paid for, the parts are freeeeeeeee, and fuel burn is a wash compared to the 767. Long haul the 767 is more efficient. Yes it can carry alot more, but with Bax domestic loads the 767 would lose money.Short haul lighter loads, this is the perfect set up for the 727. The profit margins are mind blowing. No contest in this arena, and by the way Jh aquired the 767s over the years, but aquired 14 727s in one day. Still very viable for years to come.

funny thing when oil was 140 a barrel the only directive that we received was to try to limit apu use. Bax isnt even concerned with fuel.

 

[LarryinTN]

One of the mistakes made by Astar/ALPA was believing that their management was basically benevolent

And trusting that DHL would take care of them...

 

[nitefr8dog]

funny thing when oil was 140 a barrel the only directive that we received was to try to limit apu use. Bax isnt even concerned with fuel.

These are all the same arguments ABX used comparing the DC9 to the 727 parts are free aircraft are paid for etc, etc. I still do not see a market for DC9s. What aircraft are ATI and Cappy adding to their certificate and why? My guess is it will not be 727s or DC8s. Even if they are free and parts are free way to expensive to operate or UPS and Fedex would be ordering new ones. Unless you guys know more than them? If any company has a business plan (BAX) my guess it woud have some growth in the future larger more efficent aircraft makes sense. Maybe you are right maybe we will see a return from the desert of free 727s and DC8s but I am not holding my breath.

 

[LIGHTDRIVER]

These are all the same arguments ABX used comparing the DC9 to the 727 parts are free aircraft are paid for etc, etc. I still do not see a market for DC9s. What aircraft are ATI and Cappy adding to their certificate and why? My guess is it will not be 727s or DC8s. Even if they are free and parts are free way to expensive to operate or UPS and Fedex would be ordering new ones. Unless you guys know more than them? If any company has a business plan (BAX) my guess it woud have some growth in the future larger more efficent aircraft makes sense. Maybe you are right maybe we will see a return from the desert of free 727s and DC8s but I am not holding my breath.

Yes, the 757 fits in perfect.

 

[nitefr8dog]

I agree it is cheaper to operate. But you have to operate the aircraft so many hours to pay for itself. If you had a contract flying 300 hours a month ( just pulling numbers) it would be viable to have a 75 or 76. But if a contract is only flying 150 hours than a 75 or 76 would be sitting around to much. It wouldnt pay for itself.

Now I do stand corrected about the bax system. Their is certain lines that probably would be good for a 75 or 76. LA is one and I know office people told us that if we did put a 75 in bax than it would probably do Mexico. Again its hours of utilization. Not how much it burns or how many crewmembers are on it.

The line is how many hours it operates a month. That figures aircraft lease, maintenance, fuel and crew. The more utilization, the nicer airplane pays for itself.

I would have guessed that if a 76 was coming to toledo it would be ATI. But I dont think anyone knows what the 76s are going to do with ATI to begin with. Mybe they have committments for them overseas, in that case maybe ABX would be in TOL.

ABX bases its bids on hourly operating costs. Per hour you have to figure a hell of a lot more than just aircraft payments. A 'C' on a DC8 costs around 1.5M. A 'C' check on a 767 costs around 150K. I would guess a 727 somwhere around half of that. No write off left on the DC8 or 727 so no tax savings. All this figures into the hourly cost. Also as far as payments go most of the 767s have been paid for for years.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Yes, the 757 fits in perfect.

Also comes with twice the purchace price of the 767-200.

 

[LIGHTDRIVER]

Also comes with twice the purchace price of the 767-200.

But easy to do when ya dont need them all and swap 2 for 1.

 

[nitefr8dog]

But easy to do when ya dont need them all and swap 2 for 1.

Agreed if that was the plan. Instead it looks like the money for the aircraft "put" to DHL will be used to install cargo doors in the ones ABX is keeping. JH has said he is not in favor of buying 757s because they are too expensive.

 

[FastHap]

Let's not forget who bought whom...

 

[Jurasicpilot]

Yeah, unfortunately your spin off parent company changed their name and bought an airline whose compensation package is about half of yours. Probably knowing the whole time of the DHL outcome. They bought a company who just happened to be adding 767-200s to the fleet.

In short I dont think it matters who bought who. Both groups are about to get whipsaw tactics from your parent company. Its a shame that the major airline BS has made its way over the fence into our yard in the frieght industry. Ive been watching this closely just to see how they navigate through the labor contracts and scope clauses. That sounds a little harsh but the truth is that it will help future contracts. It will really get interesting if aircraft start going back in forth.

 

[727Niteflyer]

so just a hypothetical question that is not intended to send any message or insult anyone.

Cappy does not have any reserve aircraft to place in the DHL system (not that there is even any opportunity). I dont know about ATI but again with the DHL cutbacks Im sure ATI will not place any aircraft in willmington any time soon.

ABX does have spare aircraft, Im assuming since DHL is cutting back. If they dont have any now I would assume they will in the future as they are looking for buisness for them.

Now that being said would it be a true statement since we are all trying to show unity and strength together and protect ourselves from the whipsawing, if ATSG said we want to put an ABX 76 on a cappy run to mexico for instance, would the ABX pilot group stand up and say absolutly not. Would ABX pilots refuse to fly it since this would be maybe playing the companies against each other ?

This is just discussion, not meant to upset anyone.

 

[Colonel Savage]

ATI union reps telling pilots possibility of furloughs after holidays.

 

[Jurasicpilot]

Furlough?

Probably just a standard acmi after peak furlough....Last time they hired they furloughed'em about a year later didn't they?

ATI still in negotiations? That could be a factor too.

 

[DC8-PFE]

Actually the rumor of possible furloughs are not coming from the union. Last week our president of the company (Jim Hobson), our COO (Cindy Treadwell) and our chief pilot (Matt Macri) came to the hub in Toledo during the sort for a little talk show. Jim Hobson mentioned the possibility of furloughs after the peak. For the most part, most of us here at ATI who been here long enough, think it is just posturing on the companies part. We are still in negotiations. This kind of rhetoric is famailiar to us here at ATI. The company has a long history of telling us that world is falling down, we are going broke, we were this close to shutting down, etc,etc,etc......... If there is a furlough, it will still have to be from the bottom up as we still have a master pilots senority list. So those new guys who were junior assigned to the 767 and who are in training now will be the first to go.

 

[countbat]

Now that being said would it be a true statement since we are all trying to show unity and strength together and protect ourselves from the whipsawing, if ATSG said we want to put an ABX 76 on a cappy run to mexico for instance, would the ABX pilot group stand up and say absolutly not. Would ABX pilots refuse to fly it since this would be maybe playing the companies against each other ?

Maybe in a dream world but for sure not in this one. Your job will be taken in a heart beat.

 

[727Niteflyer]

let the whipsawing begin

 

[Colonel Savage]

..... If there is a furlough, it will still have to be from the bottom up...So those new guys who were junior assigned to the 767 and who are in training now will be the first to go.

So because of the lack of home basing on the 767 (except for the first class), it went very junior, and now they will spend tens of thousands of dollars per pilot to train them and then lay them off a few months later only to train another group at considerable cost to replace them. And they can't reach a T/A with the union to avoid that?

 

[b707guy]

We have been expecting another 767 bid any time, but the way the available planes appear to be slated to arrive, it's up in the air as to when the next bid might come out. I wouldn't take a bet on any time soon, anyway... Thing is, if/when it does come out, if it's for home basing, that'll tell right up that a furlough is planned. Post- or pre-peak, I don't know, but pre would be pretty short sighted. Nothing new there, though. If it's for any assigned base, be it MIA, LAX, whatever, then a furlough would be self defeating. Doesn't mean we wouldn't have one though. If it weren't for us doggone crewmembers, this would be a great airline!