ATI and ABX Merging

[rotor&wing]

Wrong on all three counts. Please stick to the subject.

I'll stick to the subject Jim.

Once again you are shooting from the hip and running your mouth( the same as when you worked here).

You don't have a clue as to what went on during contract negotiations here, because you were fired and not an employee. Sure, there were a few guys still talking to you and giving you bits of information, but that was the extent of your knowledge.

One of the mistakes made by Astar/ALPA was believing that their management was basically benevolent, and that solidarity could be demonstrated by attending picnics and pot-luck dinners, or wearing the same color lanyards. It's a lot tougher than that, and will undoubtedly require some personal sacrifice on everybody's part.

Very nice pot shots at the organization that helped you get your job back the first time you were fired, and then the second time you were fired the same organization went back to bat for you. Very nice.

Comedian Ron White said it best, "You can't fix stupid!"

 

[fob727]

Ok Danny-boy. I have never once heard Astar's management described as benevolent. (that must have been the case years ago when you were employed here)

Tell me about the dinners and picnic.

 

[abxdx]

oooooohhhhh aaaaahhhhhh ooooooooh aaaaaaahhhhh ooooooohhhhhh aaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Very nice pot shots at the organization that helped you get your job back the first time you were fired, and then the second time you were fired the same organization went back to bat for you. Very nice.

Okay, we already know you threw your hostages under the bus to get a contract, and that now you're trying to demonize them so you don't look like such schmucks to the rest of your ALPA brothers. You don't have to tell us over and over again.

Try to stay on topic, OK?

 

[rotor&wing]

You and "where's my 72 hours?"-boy seem to have a real dual-standard when it comes to ALPA's obligation to protect jobs. When one of your fellow pilots gets canned, you assume it's warranted and that it's a cause for humor. You believe that ALPA's representation of it's pilots in disciplinary proceedings is some kind of "favor" that is being undertaken at your personal expense.

Of course, when you find out that your job is the next one on the chopping block, the notion of "personal" takes on whole new meaning. You want to call out the Guard. You want ALPA to file grievances, lawsuits, organize picket lines, generate radio, television, and newspaper coverage ad nauseum, pay for billboards and banner-towing airplanes here and abroad, demand congressional investigations, and even Presidential intervention if necessary. Whatever it takes to save YOUR a$$.

(Let's not forget the giant inflatable rat either. That added a real nice, professional touch, to your last picket line. Maybe next time, you can hire the "Duff Blimp" to do laps over Dasburgs house?)

You're right, you can't fix stupid.

Here's another one for ya;

"What goes around comes around"

"Very nice" eh? You want to know what my definition of "very nice" is? The fact that after Astar pilots voted (by 86%!) a humble and contrite Eastern SCAB back into the good graces of ALPA, he turned right around and schtupped them right in the ***.

Now that's "nice..."

This will be my last response to you Jim, because quite frankly I'm tired of arguing with an idiot such as yourself.

Fact: You are a fired Astar employee. You were fired the first time because of several "no shows" for trips. The excuse you used was "I don't understand my schedule". However, 500 other crewmembers never had a problem understanding theirs.

Fact:Your second firing was due to incompetence, as witnessed by the FAA Inspector that was administering a line check.

Fact: All of your licenses were revoked by the FAA due to incompetence. (This also can be found on faa.gov website under airman certificates.)

Fact: You were probably the most disliked Capt on the DC8. Other crewmembers dreaded flying with you. Crew Scheduling use to make jokes about all the sick calls on the other two seats when your name appeared on the schedule.

You despise ALPA and our MEC even though these people worked very hard to protect your rights under our contract. Even the first time around the MEC went far above the norm to get you your job back.

Okay, we already know you threw your hostages under the bus to get a contract, and that now you're trying to demonize them so you don't look like such schmucks to the rest of your ALPA brothers. You don't have to tell us over and over again.

If you are referring to yourself, you're delusional (as usual) And no, we did not "throw hostages under the bus" to get a contract. That's an absolute fallacy.

I could go on but I'm not. One thing is for sure, if Astar shuts down tomorrow it is not vindication for your lack of competence in the cockpit as you wish it to be. And the majority of pilots here will move on in their career as pilots, something you will never be able to do again.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Sounds like you guys will do well in the future,,I didn't know you had 19 airplanes with doors..Someone from ABX said they had 12 and then one burned in San Francisco.I guess you guys have figured out how to get ahead in the cargo door and floor line as well.Usually takes a long time to get one finished much less 19 or 12 or whatever the number is.I'm sure ABX will keep the crews on board while the mod's get done..
I am curious as to how many ER's you have with the international legs to do what our 73 model DC-8's are capable of ?
We know you guys wouldn't like to work for our wages,but why all the sudden intrest in merging 3 airlines? Talk about a circus ! How to merge the highest paid hourly wages in the industry with a mid range salary group (both Teamsters) and add in the Cappy ALPA guys who are flying for minimum wage.
Oh, and by the way we didn't initiate any merger talks..Seems like it was your union who contacted ours...

It;s 19 on paper according to the ABX Mtc sight, including the one that burnt up. The next one goes in for mod in Aug.The first C cont. aircraft to be modded. No ER aircraft as of yet guess we will not be after that market. S.A. does not seem to require that. My guess is that is where it will be used the most(767-200)

 

[abxdx]

7 down in MIA as of tonight. And there are customers down there that would like more. Just 1 in LAX and 1 flying for ANA. I think that ANA goes back to two planes at the end of September...

It;s 19 on paper according to the ABX Mtc sight, including the one that burnt up. The next one goes in for mod in Aug.The first C cont. aircraft to be modded. No ER aircraft as of yet guess we will not be after that market. S.A. does not seem to require that. My guess is that is where it will be used the most(767-200)

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

And no, we did not "throw hostages under the bus" to get a contract. That's an absolute fallacy.

The instant you rolled on your hostages, the company knew it was safe to roll on you. Which is what they did. The company saved a half-million dollars a year on 2 Senior DC-8 Captains they sure-as-he11 didn't need, and you got to buy some new chrome doo-dads for your motorcycle.

My kind of hero.

In 1998, the chairman of your negotiating committee brought you an industry-leading contract with a no-furlough clause. This time, thanks to you and guys like you, the company knew they didn't have to be so generous. In fact, the proposal was so full of holes in scope and furlough protection that the same individual who led the negotiations for the '98 contract wouldn't even present this one to the pilots. Of course, being a better talker than a listener, you assumed that the company was going to re-fleet with 757/767 aircraft, and that only the S/O's and a few junior F/O's would be furloughed. ("While we're at it, we'll throw them under the bus too!") You thought your seat was safe, and to he11 with the hostages, and the guys on the bottom third of the seniority list.

You were wrong. Had you protected your flanks, you wouldn't be in the position you're in right now.

Whoops! There goes the doo-dads, AND the motorcycle.

As for the rest, most of the items you list as "facts" seem to be your opinions, of which you have no shortage. The problem is, you're intolerant to the point of beligerence with anybody who doesn't share yours, which is why I never liked flying with you.

Of course, that's just my "opinion."

Now, can we all get back to the topic?

 

[FastHap]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but is the ATI 76 online yet? I thought I had seen it in ILN the past few weeks, but not sure. What gives?

During the ATSG investors conference call this week http://www.abxair.com/atsg/pr2008-08-11.html , Joe Hete indicated he expected FAA approval of the type for ATI sometime later this month.

 

[FastHap]

ATI already has their own 767s and Cappy already has their own 757s. Geez, ABX is not going to take them away from you! Let's all just keep our own airplanes, OK? ... I do think we need to be thinking about all joining together, but in the meantime nobody takes away anybody else's airplanes!

Air Transport International LLC and Capitol Cargo International Airlines "own" no aircraft, all of the planes they fly are "owned" by Cargo Aircraft Management, Inc. (CAM).

ABX Air on the the other hand owns all of it's aircraft except five that are on bank leases from Wells Fargo, etc., and apparently N714AX owned by CAM.

 

[FastHap]

I guess you guys have figured out how to get ahead in the cargo door and floor line as well.Usually takes a long time to get one finished much less 19 or 12 or whatever the number is.

ABX Air has a very special working relationship with BEDEK Aviation group http://www.iai.co.il/Bedek.aspx?FolderID=17562&lang=en , a subsidiary of Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd.. They have run as many as 4 simultaneous conversion lines for ABX in the recent past. ATSG has many conversion slots that are reserved and awaiting aircraft. As mentioned the first PC (Package Container, cargo door deficient) airplane leaves for Israel, and conversion for cargo door, this month. The initial STC is expected to take around a year. ATSG has already funded this project. Subsequent modifications of PC aircraft will take about 90 days.

 

[FastHap]

Yes, but will you still be opposed to merging the lists when ABX starts getting contracts to do the BAX/Schenker flying?

I think the point that Penguin is trying to make is that the owners of these three companies have already joined forces to work against you, the employees of all three airlines.

Ding! Ding! Ding! At least somebody gets it.

 

[727Niteflyer]

I think the only way an ABX aircraft ends up in toledo is for a charter or to fill in for a broken 8 or 72. I think ATSG is getting smarter about utilizing resources. I think the days of seeing the murray dc8 on the ramp are over. I think they are getting smarter at keeping the money all in the company (chartering abx for extra freight or a broken aircraft). Notice I begin with I think on every sentence, because nobody really knows. Prior to this whole ATSG deal though it was told to us that bax has no desire to run 76s or 75s. maybe that will change with the price of oil, but their still doesnt seem to be any urgency to change from that thinking. Bax seems very content with the DC8s and 72s. In fact we are suppose to be getting more. So far our 75s are gonna end with 2, which we were told all along. Second one is suppose to be here by the end of the year. If they find contracts for 75s Im sure we will get more. If they find work for ATI Im sure they will do it. And Im sure that ABX will still fly doing charters, whether its 50 aircraft 30 or 10. They will find work and ATSG probably will make money despite everyones feelings.

I feel bad for everyone on here thats going to have problems in the future. I found myself out of work 4 times myself. But at the same time if I was losing my job or bax was doing this to ATI and Cappy I know none of the "biggger" companys would be crying about me losing my job. Remember what was said to the cat people when they were losing their jobs ? I remember quotes like "your losing your job get over it", "why should UPS give anyone preferential interviews".

This sucks for everyone. Every time their is consolidation, merging, buying out, someone and their family gets hurt. Whether its ABX, USAir, Challenge, Emery, or even CAT.

 

[b707guy]

Air Transport International LLC and Capitol Cargo International Airlines "own" no aircraft, all of the planes they fly are "owned" by Cargo Aircraft Management, Inc. (CAM).

ABX Air on the the other hand owns all of it's aircraft except five that are on bank leases from Wells Fargo, etc., and apparently N714AX owned by CAM.

At one time, we owned many of our aircraft. Most of the rest were owned by Aero Leasing, and there may have been a few others owned by someone else along the way. Around the time CHI bought us, all of our aircraft one by one were bought by some mysterious entity called DC-8 Aircraft One and DC-8 Aircraft Two, or something like that, and although I haven't researched it, I believe both of those "companies" are under CAM such that CAM and ultimately ATSG now own all of our aircraft. The five 767s originally slated for us had CX tail numbers, which was a carry over from our old ICX days and which were on aircraft that we owned. Now those same 767s have a CAM-owned registration. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see all of ABX's owned aircraft to be bought by CAM or "767 Aircraft One", etc, or at least the aircraft that will be kept.

 

[fob727]

The instant you rolled on your hostages, the company knew it was safe to roll on you. Which is what they did. The company saved a half-million dollars a year on 2 Senior DC-8 Captains they sure-as-he11 didn't need, and you got to buy some new chrome doo-dads for your motorcycle.

My kind of hero.

In 1998, the chairman of your negotiating committee brought you an industry-leading contract with a no-furlough clause. This time, thanks to you and guys like you, the company knew they didn't have to be so generous. In fact, the proposal was so full of holes in scope and furlough protection that the same individual who led the negotiations for the '98 contract wouldn't even present this one to the pilots. Of course, being a better talker than a listener, you assumed that the company was going to re-fleet with 757/767 aircraft, and that only the S/O's and a few junior F/O's would be furloughed. ("While we're at it, we'll throw them under the bus too!") You thought your seat was safe, and to he11 with the hostages, and the guys on the bottom third of the seniority list.

You were wrong. Had you protected your flanks, you wouldn't be in the position you're in right now.

Whoops! There goes the doo-dads, AND the motorcycle.

As for the rest, most of the items you list as "facts" seem to be your opinions, of which you have no shortage. The problem is, you're intolerant to the point of beligerence with anybody who doesn't share yours, which is why I never liked flying with you.

Of course, that's just my "opinion."

Now, can we all get back to the topic?

Danny-boy....you're full of sh#t!

 

[727Niteflyer]

prior to CHI being formed, all of our airplanes were owned by capital cargo or by the investors of capital and leased to capital cargo. After the pegasus deal cam was formed and all the aircraft were reregistered to 727 1 or something like that. Than it was discovered a company called 767 aircraft 1 was formed with the same address as capitalcargo. Thats how we found out we officially owned 5 767s.

Than of course cam was formed, than chi and etc..

It wouldnt surprise me if ABX isnt going to directly own their aircraft in the future. Im sure cam will take custody of the aircraft like they have all the aircraft. this gives ATSG the ability to do with what they please a little easier.

CAM is the aircraft management, buying and direct owner of all the aircraft for ATSG.

CAM will assimilate all ABX aircraft. Resistance is futile.

 

[penguin22]

Air Transport International LLC and Capitol Cargo International Airlines "own" no aircraft, all of the planes they fly are "owned" by Cargo Aircraft Management, Inc. (CAM).

ABX Air on the the other hand owns all of it's aircraft except five that are on bank leases from Wells Fargo, etc., and apparently N714AX owned by CAM.

OK so think of it another way. Career expectations.

ATI and Cappy already had those 767s and 757s purchased for them before ABX Holdings came along and bought CHI. (somebody correct me if I'm wrong here) And ATI and Cappy pilots always had the expectations to end up flying them.

Think how you would react if an -AX tail number ended up being flown by one of the other guys. Pretty much the same reaction I'd have, I suspect.

The quickest way to get all 3 pilots groups at war with one another is to suggest they may not end up flying what they consider as "their" airplanes. Let's not play into Joe's hand here.

 

[727flier]

I agree with you, but we have to have our unions working together to make sure this doesn't happen. I am sure they have spoken with each other on this issue. Teamsters and ALPA have seen this before. This is (if I'm not mistaken) how Atlas and Polar operated at first. They were both ALPA so I don't know if it's different with two labor unions.

 

[727Niteflyer]

so I guess if ATSG were to move all of cappys 72s over to ABX the ABX pilots would stand up and say they are flying them ?

my second question is, if ATI and Cappy were planning on getting 75s and 76s prior to any of this happening, and lets say ABX through no fault of thier own is going to be downsized from 50 76s to 30 76s, and lets say 10 of the 76s that ABX doesnt have work for are going to be shifted to ATI for thier military charters or to replace some of the dc8s this is a problem ?

 

[shooter]

my second question is, if ATI and Cappy were planning on getting 75s and 76s prior to any of this happening, and lets say ABX through no fault of thier own is going to be downsized from 50 76s to 30 76s, and lets say 10 of the 76s that ABX doesnt have work for are going to be shifted to ATI for thier military charters or to replace some of the dc8s this is a problem ?

If all 3 airlines become 1, that question would prove moot, right? As far as CAM owning the aircraft and leasing them back, that is going to happen no matter what you guys decide you want to do. Nothing better than cutting a profit from your own work, for doing nothing more than paying yourself for your own property. Reduce tax liability on one unit and keep more money "in house".

 

[727Niteflyer]

I guess thats my whole point. CAM is going to move aircraft around to meet the needs of ATSG regardless of what the pilot groups think.

Ill go back to my first post, merging the 3 companys, especially the pilot groups, is not going to happen.

 

[penguin22]

so I guess if ATSG were to move all of cappys 72s over to ABX the ABX pilots would stand up and say they are flying them ?

my second question is, if ATI and Cappy were planning on getting 75s and 76s prior to any of this happening, and lets say ABX through no fault of thier own is going to be downsized from 50 76s to 30 76s, and lets say 10 of the 76s that ABX doesnt have work for are going to be shifted to ATI for thier military charters or to replace some of the dc8s this is a problem ?

If it were up to me, the pilots would follow the jets. If cappy 727s get moved to ABX, the pilots move with them. If ABX 767s get moved to ATI, the pilots move with them. Hopefully, at some point we’d all become one airline in which, as shooter says, the question is moot.

The bigger question is who will end up flying aircraft yet to be bought. With 3 separate airlines, ATSG can pit one against the other for the prize. With one airline, again, the question is moot. Therein lies the biggest reason to merge, IMHO.

 

[727Niteflyer]

I dont think that abx, capital or ati is going to bid any contracts. I think ATSG is going to bid the contracts or offer the services of all 3 carriers, the contract is going to be given to the carrier most suited for the contract.

ATSG is one company that can provide a varied support of a companies charter needs (if that makes since).

IMHO ABX is going to exist as a small charter company just like ATI and Cappy. Whether its 1 airplane or 20 its going to be whatever kind of work ATSG can get for it. ATSG is not going to pit ATI 76s against ABX 76s. The prices for a 76 is going to be set by ATSG to charter. IMHO.

Look at the relationship of bax, cappy and cargojet. Bax needed cargojet to do calgary which capital was doing. Bax gave it to them but capital was able to negotiate a deal with cargo jet that allowed it to operate a cargojet contract to bermuda. It was a trade. Cargojet gained or lost nothing, Capital gained nor lost, Bax Gained cause they needed the canadian lift for the trip.

 

[penguin22]

You know, if that's the way things end up, that'd be just fine.

But I'll just add one comment here... It's Joe Hete that's running ATSG, and I've known him for 25 years. Just keep your eyes open, OK?

 

[FastHap]

CAM will assimilate all ABX aircraft. Resistance is futile.

I'm not saying this can't happen, and you're right that it probably will eventually. The only problem is it would be a scope violation of our current contract.

b) Neither the Company nor its Affiliates shall conclude a sale,
lease, transfer or any other disposition, whether directly or
indirectly, of any aircraft on the Company’s Operations
Specifications (“OpSpecs”) to any Entity under the control
of the Company or any of its affiliates that, upon acquisition,
uses the equipment to provide air cargo service to the Company or in competition with it.​

 

[FastHap]

ATSG is not going to pit ATI 76s against ABX 76s.

This has apparently already happened, check into the "real" story of the new company AMX Cargo, based in Miami.

 

[rotor&wing]

This has apparently already happened, check into the "real" story of the new company AMX Cargo, based in Miami.

AMX Cargo Launched
8/11/2008
Thomas L. Gallagher
Web Editor

Aeromexpress Cargo launched a U.S. subsidiary linking Miami to Central America and the Caribbean.
The new company, known as AMX Cargo, branches out from the joint venture owned by Mexico's two largest airlines, Aeromexico and Mexicana.
Miami-based AMX made its first flight from Miami to San Juan Airport in Puerto Rico and to Las Americas Airport in Santo Domingo and back to Miami on July 31. Through a strategic alliance with Air Transport Services Group, the carrier has the use of a fleet of 767-200 freighters operated by ABX Air and Air Transport International.
The airline will operate its initial route three times per week. Central America operations will start on Aug. 13, serving Costa Rica and Guatemala daily and Panama twice weekly. Daily belly service from MIA-MEX will be offered on passenger aircraft of Aeromexico and Mexicana effective August 15.
Jaime Silva will be the CEO of AMX Cargo with Juan Rodriquez, CEO of Aeromexpress Cargo, as chairman of the new company.

 

[shooter]

I guess thats my whole point. CAM is going to move aircraft around to meet the needs of ATSG regardless of what the pilot groups think.

Ill go back to my first post, merging the 3 companys, especially the pilot groups, is not going to happen.

So what you are saying is that it would be alright for all of the 8's to go on the ABX certificate and have ABX fly them? I think that is why it would be in the best interest for the groups to become one. Although the company would not want that to happen, of course. Your shoes, they just own the field you want to run on. You guys know how this game works. No skin off my teeth.

 

[727Niteflyer]

so whats the real story ? AMX cargo is in dealings with ATSG. ATI nor ABX bid on this. ATSG is going to provide the charter needs.

If ATSG really wanted to pit everyone against each other they could put a 76 on capitals ops specs. We already have a 75, really how hard would be to add a 76. Fact is since CHI has been formed neither capital nor ati have been pitted against each other in any way. We dont even share ground support in the out stations. Completely separate. Thats why I do believe ABX will be kept seperate, with its own operation.

 

[shooter]

so whats the real story ? AMX cargo is in dealings with ATSG. ATI nor ABX bid on this. ATSG is going to provide the charter needs.

If ATSG really wanted to pit everyone against each other they could put a 76 on capitals ops specs. We already have a 75, really how hard would be to add a 76. Fact is since CHI has been formed neither capital nor ati have been pitted against each other in any way. We dont even share ground support in the out stations. Completely separate. Thats why I do believe ABX will be kept seperate, with its own operation.

Dual qual aircraft. Could be just as easy to put the 75's on ATI or ABX certificate. And they already are putting the groups against each other. Part of the selling you speak of.