Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

ATI and ABX Merging

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
Fly Astar Jets said:
I think that's what l8fr82hub means by "Too Late". It''s kinda like "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice........ .

FAJ
Click to expand...

"What we do about history matters. The often repeated saying that those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them has a lot of truth in it. But what are 'the lessons of history'? The very attempt at definition furnishes ground for new conflicts. History is not a recipe book; past events are never replicated in the present in quite the same way. Historical events are infinitely variable and their interpretations are a constantly shifting process. There are no certainties to be found in the past."

Gerda Lerner

Local 747, under the rule of Gene Sewell, and ATI cut a deal to take the Australia flying away from ABX. Now, ABX and Local 1224 are being accused of inappropriate actions in looking out for it's furloughed crew-members.

I'm far more interested in what happens today and tomorrow, than what occurred yesterday.
 
FastHap said:
Local 747, under the rule of Gene Sewell, and ATI cut a deal to take the Australia flying away from ABX.
Click to expand...

Obviously, we need some enlightenment. What Australia flying, EXACTLY, did we cut a deal to take away from ABX?
 
Pretty twisted perspective.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. If ATI secures a contract it's whipsawing and if ABX negotiates a concessionary contract it's an effort to "to stop this practice and reverse the decline of our profession" (quote from Muckle's letter to ABX crewmembers).

Is that about right? This all seems pretty one-sided to me. Please do tell me where I've got it wrong and while you're at it how about a peek a that side letter which supposedly gives ATI and CCI crewmembers reciprocal rights to be recalled to ABX?
 
Last edited:
l8fr82hub said:
Pretty twisted perspective.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. If ATI secures a contract it's whipsawing and if ABX negotiates a concessionary contract it's an effort to "to stop this practice and reverse the decline of our profession" (quote from Muckle's letter to ABX crewmembers).

Is that about right? This all seems pretty one-sided to me. Please do tell me where I've got it wrong and while you're at it how about a peek a that side letter which supposedly gives ATI and CCI crewmembers reciprocal rights to be recalled to ABX?
Click to expand...

And who do think allowed ATI to secure the Qantas flying? Nothing happens unless Joe H. wants it to. ATI was awarded the contact at a time when contract talks at ABX where at a standstill. If you cannot see whipsawing like that watch out! ATI will get exactly what Joe is willing to give and that is all. When the Qantas flying comes over to ABX and you park a 767 do not be too surprised.
 
Last edited:
Air Transport Services Group Inc. Q4 2009 Earnings Call Transcript

From SeekingAlpha.com :

Operator
(Operator Instructions) Your first question comes from Helene Becker – Jessup & Lamont.

.... {First three questions and responses skipped} ....

Helene Becker – Jessup & Lamont
With the pilot agreement now everything is done and everything is behind you on the labor side?

Joe Hete
As far as the ABX crew is concerned that is correct but we are still in negotiations with our other two airlines, ATI and Capital Cargo’s flight crews.

Helene Becker – Jessup & Lamont
Any finding on that?

Joe Hete
They continue to go through the negotiation process. They’re both involving Federal mediators at this point in time, but would not get into predicting when and if we could potentially get an agreement. I think the one good thing is for the first time ever from ABX’s perspective is, the agreement we got with the flight crews is five years going forward. Historically we’d get five year agreements but by the time we inked them, two years had already elapsed so we only looked at three years of going forward labor piece so to speak.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/196...-earnings-call-transcript?source=yahoo&page=7

My emphasis in red.
 
Emotions are contagious and a weakness. When a dynamic situation is presented, as all 3 airlines have been thrust into, it is the calmer cooler heads that will prevail. Once the emotions control for one it is a victory of divide and conquer. Each can fight for their own survival if they choose. But when you build your house, you have 3 pillars. Put them too close together it becomes weak and frail. Put them too far apart and your house will fall in upon itself. But placed properly apart you can carry an enormous load, together. Good luck to all of you guys and best of luck. Sounds like you will need it.

My paycheck comes from an ATSG bank account too.
 
FastHap said:
No.

ABX Air had been in negotiations with Qantas since early 2007. Sewell cut the deal to take it.

You can call it what ever you like. That's the way the ABX guys and gals see it.
Click to expand...

I would sure love to see this 'deal' that a union rep can have any effect whatsoever upon, regarding an operations contract. IBT 747 only had their fingers around our wallets, not our Sales or our Ops. And Hete's ability to determine who flies the available contracts is limited to who he lets open the door among his underlings. In other words, Hete can "let" one of or both ATI and ABX make offers for a contract, but he sure as hell can't make Qantas choose ABX over ATI or vice versa. For whatever reason, Qantas chose ATI. Maybe the negotiator we sent was smokin' hot for all I know. Maybe Hete took some action to sweeten the pot to steer Qantas towards ATI. Regardless, ATI didn't "take" any ABX flying.

Sewell 'cut a deal'? Preposterous.
 
B707. I agree with you that unions do not make the operational decisions regarding issues such as what work to bid on and what conditions to offer. However, unions can have an impact on those decisions based upon the wages that they negotiate.

Looking at it from the company point of view, a company with high operating costs will be less desirable than one with low costs. Assuming that all other things are equal.

So, how do higher cost companies stay in business? They offer something different from the competition or find a niche. When we go to the car rental place at the airport, there are usually 4 to 8 companies there renting cars. One will have the lowest price on a category of car at a given time. So, how do the other companies stay in business. Shouldn't all customers select the lowest priced company?

FastHap is incorrect in stating that ATI stole business from ABX. He is playing the age old blame game. From the pilot point of view, there are advantages to having a high wage structure and there are advantages to having a low wage structure.

FastHap has a very myopic view of the world which is shared by many pilots. The argument goes "the pilots at company X work for less pay than what I get. Company X got a contract that my company didn't get. The pilots at company X undercut me and stole my work." If it were that simple, wouldn't all pilots work for the same wage? Because only the low pay companies would get the contracts and all others would have to match prices or disappear.

I think it is probably a good thing that pilot groups are not in the business of making operational decisions. Can you imagine what that would be like?
 
laserman2431 said:
So, how do higher cost companies stay in business? They offer something different from the competition or find a niche. When we go to the car rental place at the airport, there are usually 4 to 8 companies there renting cars. One will have the lowest price on a category of car at a given time. So, how do the other companies stay in business. Shouldn't all customers select the lowest priced company?
Click to expand...

There is a major problem with your example. To use your analogy, in this situation CAM (Cargo Aircraft Management) owns all the cars (ie airplanes).

Now I have to go make an optometrist appointment, because according to you, I have a vision problem. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
From FastHap's link.....

*April 21, 2009.International Brotherhood of Teamsters President James P. Hoffa April 15 imposed an emergency takeover of Teamsters Local 747, citing the Houston-based local's “failure to perform its duties” as bargaining agent for some 4,000 pilots at a dozen small passenger and cargo airlines.*

Then Jimmy P. Hoffa also needs to takeover local 1224 because what the working ABX majority wanted isn't what they've been stuck with. A survey to determine the memberships' scheduling requirements after a new CBA is ratified doesn't really cut it. Traditionally, the membership is consulted as to their wishes prior to ratification - but the ABX 1224 junta would appear to have this particular logistic backward. At best, utter incompetence; at worst, willful deceit with an associated charge of “failure to perform its duties” as bargaining agent for its working members. See ref to local 747 above, it's applicable to 1224. So where's Jimmy when you need him?


FastHap said:
No.

ABX Air had been in negotiations with Qantas since early 2007. Sewell cut the deal to take it.

You can call it what ever you like. That's the way the ABX guys and gals see it.
Click to expand...

No, you're wrong. The guys (no gals left) at ABX don't see it this way at all. Only you SpeedyHap, only you. Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My! Plans within plans, always a conspiracy that can't quite be defined taking place somewhere just over the horizon. You're an army of one SpeedyHap, albeit an army of one (as in exclusively yourself) that's bent over grabbing ankles whilst stoically holding a fixed grin. "Please sir, may I have another?" Never mind the optometrist's visit, best schedule with a chiropractor to find the missing backbone.
 
Last edited:
HeavyjetDC8 said:
From FastHap's link.....

*April 21, 2009.International Brotherhood of Teamsters President James P. Hoffa April 15 imposed an emergency takeover of Teamsters Local 747, citing the Houston-based local's “failure to perform its duties” as bargaining agent for some 4,000 pilots at a dozen small passenger and cargo airlines.*

Then Jimmy P. Hoffa also needs to takeover local 1224 because what the working ABX majority wanted isn't what they've been stuck with. A survey to determine the memberships' scheduling requirements after a new CBA is ratified doesn't really cut it. Traditionally, the membership is consulted as to their wishes prior to ratification - but the ABX 1224 junta would appear to have this particular logistic backward. At best, utter incompetence; at worst, willful deceit with an associated charge of “failure to perform its duties” as bargaining agent for its working members. See ref to local 747 above, it's applicable to 1224. So where's Jimmy when you need him?




No, you're wrong. The guys (no gals left) at ABX don't see it this way at all. Only you SpeedyHap, only you. Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My! Plans within plans, always a conspiracy that can't quite be defined taking place somewhere just over the horizon. You're an army of one SpeedyHap, albeit an army of one (as in exclusively yourself) that's bent over grabbing ankles whilst stoically holding a fixed grin. "Please sir, may I have another?" Never mind the optometrist's visit, best schedule with a chiropractor to find the missing backbone.
Click to expand...

Actually, we have two gals left!
 
You're correct nitefr8dog. I'm wrong. With head held low in mortified embarrassment I retract my 'no gals' statement.
 
Last edited:

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top