ATI and ABX Merging

[FastHap]

Let's not forget who bought whom...

 

[Jurasicpilot]

Yeah, unfortunately your spin off parent company changed their name and bought an airline whose compensation package is about half of yours. Probably knowing the whole time of the DHL outcome. They bought a company who just happened to be adding 767-200s to the fleet.

In short I dont think it matters who bought who. Both groups are about to get whipsaw tactics from your parent company. Its a shame that the major airline BS has made its way over the fence into our yard in the frieght industry. Ive been watching this closely just to see how they navigate through the labor contracts and scope clauses. That sounds a little harsh but the truth is that it will help future contracts. It will really get interesting if aircraft start going back in forth.

 

[727Niteflyer]

so just a hypothetical question that is not intended to send any message or insult anyone.

Cappy does not have any reserve aircraft to place in the DHL system (not that there is even any opportunity). I dont know about ATI but again with the DHL cutbacks Im sure ATI will not place any aircraft in willmington any time soon.

ABX does have spare aircraft, Im assuming since DHL is cutting back. If they dont have any now I would assume they will in the future as they are looking for buisness for them.

Now that being said would it be a true statement since we are all trying to show unity and strength together and protect ourselves from the whipsawing, if ATSG said we want to put an ABX 76 on a cappy run to mexico for instance, would the ABX pilot group stand up and say absolutly not. Would ABX pilots refuse to fly it since this would be maybe playing the companies against each other ?

This is just discussion, not meant to upset anyone.

 

[Colonel Savage]

ATI union reps telling pilots possibility of furloughs after holidays.

 

[Jurasicpilot]

Furlough?

Probably just a standard acmi after peak furlough....Last time they hired they furloughed'em about a year later didn't they?

ATI still in negotiations? That could be a factor too.

 

[DC8-PFE]

Actually the rumor of possible furloughs are not coming from the union. Last week our president of the company (Jim Hobson), our COO (Cindy Treadwell) and our chief pilot (Matt Macri) came to the hub in Toledo during the sort for a little talk show. Jim Hobson mentioned the possibility of furloughs after the peak. For the most part, most of us here at ATI who been here long enough, think it is just posturing on the companies part. We are still in negotiations. This kind of rhetoric is famailiar to us here at ATI. The company has a long history of telling us that world is falling down, we are going broke, we were this close to shutting down, etc,etc,etc......... If there is a furlough, it will still have to be from the bottom up as we still have a master pilots senority list. So those new guys who were junior assigned to the 767 and who are in training now will be the first to go.

 

[countbat]

Now that being said would it be a true statement since we are all trying to show unity and strength together and protect ourselves from the whipsawing, if ATSG said we want to put an ABX 76 on a cappy run to mexico for instance, would the ABX pilot group stand up and say absolutly not. Would ABX pilots refuse to fly it since this would be maybe playing the companies against each other ?

Maybe in a dream world but for sure not in this one. Your job will be taken in a heart beat.

 

[727Niteflyer]

let the whipsawing begin

 

[Colonel Savage]

..... If there is a furlough, it will still have to be from the bottom up...So those new guys who were junior assigned to the 767 and who are in training now will be the first to go.

So because of the lack of home basing on the 767 (except for the first class), it went very junior, and now they will spend tens of thousands of dollars per pilot to train them and then lay them off a few months later only to train another group at considerable cost to replace them. And they can't reach a T/A with the union to avoid that?

 

[b707guy]

We have been expecting another 767 bid any time, but the way the available planes appear to be slated to arrive, it's up in the air as to when the next bid might come out. I wouldn't take a bet on any time soon, anyway... Thing is, if/when it does come out, if it's for home basing, that'll tell right up that a furlough is planned. Post- or pre-peak, I don't know, but pre would be pretty short sighted. Nothing new there, though. If it's for any assigned base, be it MIA, LAX, whatever, then a furlough would be self defeating. Doesn't mean we wouldn't have one though. If it weren't for us doggone crewmembers, this would be a great airline!

 

[nitefr8dog]

So because of the lack of home basing on the 767 (except for the first class), it went very junior, and now they will spend tens of thousands of dollars per pilot to train them and then lay them off a few months later only to train another group at considerable cost to replace them. And they can't reach a T/A with the union to avoid that?

According to your new boss J.H., training costs nothing, already own the sim instructors on salary. Welcome to the new ATSG!

 

[727flier]

Is the ATI 767 training being conducted by ABX?

 

[B767Inst]

According to your new boss J.H., training costs nothing, already own the sim instructors on salary. Welcome to the new ATSG!

True, but in order to keep the companies separate, ATI is not using ABX sims or instructors. I think they are using Alteon. At the rate guys are bailing out, it might be a moot point in the very near future. It takes 6 months to a year to get an instructor up to speed, ABX has already lost 30% of the 767 instructors. The feeling is that ABX has already entered the death spiral, so everyone is interviewing and looking for a new home. Very sad.

 

[nitefr8dog]

True, but in order to keep the companies separate, ATI is not using ABX sims or instructors. I think they are using Alteon. At the rate guys are bailing out, it might be a moot point in the very near future. It takes 6 months to a year to get an instructor up to speed, ABX has already lost 30% of the 767 instructors. The feeling is that ABX has already entered the death spiral, so everyone is interviewing and looking for a new home. Very sad.

30%? we have only had 1 767 crewmember leave, a captain but he was not an instructor.

 

[B767Inst]

30%? we have only had 1 767 crewmember leave, a captain but he was not an instructor.

I was referring to ground instructors.

 

[b707guy]

ATI is not using ABX sims or instructors. I think they are using Alteon.

Yep, we're using Alteon. We have two FNG new hires who bid the MIA base currently in training. Otherwise, we have two home based Capts who have actually flown the jet for certification, etc. There are two more Capts and 4 FOs, all home based, who have completed ground training and type rides but have been sitting around with nothing to fly, and they're no longer DC-8 qualified either, so there's that, and all the other guys who were either JAd, downgraded into, or bid it (FNGs) are still flying or learning to fly the DC-8, since there appears to be no need to train them on the 767 just yet.

BAX loads seem to be down lately, too, enough so that Cappy flew one of our normal runs this morning. In the past, such events usually took place as a one-for-one swap, where we'd go to one of their normal cities, but when I left the hub this morning, two of our beautiful DC-8s were sitting idle, the crew that was supposed to fly that trip was sent home, and not a single 727 was on the ramp. We actually started looking at 727s several years ago! Of course, that went no where and instead, we've suffered having 767s and other types dangled in front of our hungry eyes for years, and now that we're starting to get them, we seem to have no apparent plan as to what to do with them. Nor do we seem interested in finding business for our DC-8s. All these fine jets, the wealth of knowledge and experience in how to use them, a certificate enabling so much, and we just sit.

 

[727flier]

Our 757 crews didn't fly the airplane for almost a year after training. Just wait, if they do the same as our guys they will blame the FAA and everyone else but themselves if its delayed. Maybe we don't have a monopoly on incompetent office staff. It must be an ATSG thing.

 

[nitefr8dog]

I was referring to ground instructors.

Thats equal to 1.

 

[727Niteflyer]

well if you have 3 and 1 quits thats about 30%

 

[mxer]

ABX has lost more than 1 767 crewmember. I know of at least 1 in the right seat and have heard of at least a few in the left. A lot more in the "waiting to hear" catagory. And I'm in the 9

 

[Dick Cabeza]

Im surprised folks are not burning down their sick time. It's a wonder anything moves on the ABX property, are you guys thinking the DHL/UPS "deal" might not happen? (that would be the best resolution for all you folks at ATSG I would think)

 

[erichartmann]

so just a hypothetical question that is not intended to send any message or insult anyone.

Cappy does not have any reserve aircraft to place in the DHL system (not that there is even any opportunity). I dont know about ATI but again with the DHL cutbacks Im sure ATI will not place any aircraft in willmington any time soon.

ABX does have spare aircraft, Im assuming since DHL is cutting back. If they dont have any now I would assume they will in the future as they are looking for buisness for them.

Now that being said would it be a true statement since we are all trying to show unity and strength together and protect ourselves from the whipsawing, if ATSG said we want to put an ABX 76 on a cappy run to mexico for instance, would the ABX pilot group stand up and say absolutly not. Would ABX pilots refuse to fly it since this would be maybe playing the companies against each other ?

This is just discussion, not meant to upset anyone.

They might tell YOU we are flying your run, but even if true, they probably wouldn't tell us until after the fact if at all.

 

[727Niteflyer]

so if you found out it was one of cappies run or an ati run, would the pilots refuse ?

My point is all this chest beating and how we need to support each other and merge doesnt mean squat if one group of pilots is willing to fly another groups work.

Like I said before, Cappy isnt going to be tested because we have no spare aircraft, I dont think Ati's pilots will be tested. But ABX will have spare aircraft and crews.

 

[b707guy]

Cappy flew one of our normal runs this morning.

Found out we did do a Cappy run (PHX) in place of LRD. The crew that would have done LRD was sent home because they didn't have time left to do PHX, and they were supposed to go home from LRD, so my rant above was a bit premature. :0

We seem to be boom or bust with ad hoc, so one day we have excess capacity, and the next day we're short.

 

[nitefr8dog]

so if you found out it was one of cappies run or an ati run, would the pilots refuse ?

My point is all this chest beating and how we need to support each other and merge doesnt mean squat if one group of pilots is willing to fly another groups work.

Like I said before, Cappy isnt going to be tested because we have no spare aircraft, I dont think Ati's pilots will be tested. But ABX will have spare aircraft and crews.

My understanding our scope is "supposed" to prevent our aircraft from being flown by another pilot group ie: ABX aircraft given to Cappy or ATI to use. Since the DHL mess our "runs" have been given to Astar over and over again, not much we could do about it and they certainly did not entertain the idea of not flying it.

 

[hvydriver]

My understanding our scope is "supposed" to prevent our aircraft from being flown by another pilot group ie: ABX aircraft given to Cappy or ATI to use. Since the DHL mess our "runs" have been given to Astar over and over again, not much we could do about it and they certainly did not entertain the idea of not flying it.

True that. It's been musical runs since the integration around here.

 

[nitefr8dog]

True that. It's been musical runs since the integration around here.

Except we did not gain any only lost alot of ours.

 

[hvydriver]

Except we did not gain any only lost alot of ours.

True. We've had a lot of route changes, but no a/c loss/furloughs. Yet.

 

[nitefr8dog]

well if you have 3 and 1 quits thats about 30%

Well you got me there 30% sounds alot more dire than 1.

 

[nitefr8dog]

ABX has lost more than 1 767 crewmember. I know of at least 1 in the right seat and have heard of at least a few in the left. A lot more in the "waiting to hear" catagory. And I'm in the 9

I guess I am talking about the ones who have already quit when you say "lost". It equals 1 767 captain as far as turning in their paperwork, and he was not an instructor. 1 or 2 767 FOs have also left but not any huge number.