"ATC explain yourself, over"

[GravityHater]

Is there a pragmatic reason a pilot would need to know how many a/c between him and the runway?
perfect VMC today with light traffic, no priority requested, and he says, "What sequence am I to the airport?"
Maybe there is a functional reason of which I am unaware, but it did sound from his tone to ask, "Why am *I* (as opposed to the other guys) being delayed?
So approach had to stop their job and sheepishly explain all the traffic on their scope, what he was planning and why he was # 5 or whatever.
Hope I heard it wrong.

 

[Hold West]

Is there a pragmatic reason a pilot would need to know how many a/c between him and the runway?
perfect VMC today with light traffic, no priority requested, and he says, "What sequence am I to the airport?"
Maybe there is a functional reason of which I am unaware, but it did sound from his tone to ask, "Why am *I* (as opposed to the other guys) being delayed?
So approach had to stop their job and sheepishly explain all the traffic on their scope, what he was planning and why he was # 5 or whatever.
Hope I heard it wrong.

That question pops up on frequency all the time.

I don't mind someone asking what to expect - if I'm cranking them around and slowing them, etc. Then again I'm not O'Hare approach, where that would be kind of a stupid question.

I do try, if it's a little busy, to tell someone what to expect - "United 37 heavy, reduce speed to 210, you're no. 4 following the second 737 ahead and to your right." Forestalls a lot of questions.

I do find the "What's my sequence" question to be fairly pointless. What will anyone do with the answer? "You're number 6." What's that tell you? I tend to just pick a random number out of the air - well, plus or minus three, I'm usually correct.

If someone wants an explanation of every airplane on my scope, call after you land, 'cause I'm not wasting everyone's time to give it to you over the frequency.

 

[cargoflyr69]

Do you know what kind of plane he was flying? Just a guess, but if it was a high performance (fast) single or twin maybe it would be good to know your sequence so you can plan a decent profile and slow and configure soon enough so you dont run down the 4 J-3 cubs that are ahead of you in the pattern...

 

[Groucho]

Gravity Hater,

Three is a very good reason to try to figure out where you are in the sequence when you are flying a jet. Yes, you can stooge around all day in a dirty flap configuration, or clean and fast, or anything in between. With fuel prices the way they are crews are trying to keep the airplane as clean as possible for as long as possible.

This practice can interfere with a stabilized approach if you push it too far. Knowing how long the final is and where you are in the stack allows a pilot to stay in the best place for fuel economy.

A high downwind in CLT, arriving from the North and landing 36R with no traffic means you had better get slow and dirty to avoid a long final. In IFR conditions with a 20 mile final and spacing in trail you fly ATC assigned and configure accordingly.

It is a good operating practice and ATC will need to get used to it. Just letting a pilot know his sequence for both takeoff, single engine taxi out, and landing descent profile can go a long way for fuel savings.

 

[awacs941]

Maybe he wanted to make sure that he all all of the planes ahead of him insight as to prevent him from overtaking the traffic he was following.

 

[Groucho]

I do find the "What's my sequence" question to be fairly pointless. What will anyone do with the answer? "You're number 6." What's that tell you? I tend to just pick a random number out of the air - well, plus or minus three, I'm usually correct.

Hold West,

You need to come ride my jump seat. "What's my sequence" both outbound and inbound is going to be very common. I know you may not like it but get used to it. It allows us to plan a min-fuel burn arrival. There is talk at my airline about putting in the FOM and emphasizing it in training. BTW putting it in the FOM with an FAA sign off makes it part of the approved operating procedure.

"What does it tell me?" It tells me how to configure and how fast to fly if I am not already assigned a speed.

 

[OpenClimb]

Groucho's answer is right on the mark.

I can fly at 210Kts clean in an Airbus or I can do it Flaps1. If I'm going to fly a 5 mile final, I'll probably select Flaps1 in anticipation of further descent. If the final is going to be 20+ miles long, I'll hang out in the clean configuration to save a little fuel.

Depending on how long we've been on frequency or how familiar we are with a particular airport, there is a chance we'll be able to figure out what's going on just by listening to the chatter. The real problem comes when we're away from a hub and we aren't aware of the standard practices of the local ATC. Close parallel approaches make it more difficult to determine your sequence by using the TCAS system, too.

Most of the time it's a valid question.

Hope this helps.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Gravity Hater,

Three is a very good reason to try to figure out where you are in the sequence when you are flying a jet. Yes, you can stooge around all day in a dirty flap configuration, or clean and fast, or anything in between. With fuel prices the way they are crews are trying to keep the airplane as clean as possible for as long as possible.

This practice can interfere with a stabilized approach if you push it too far. Knowing how long the final is and where you are in the stack allows a pilot to stay in the best place for fuel economy.

A high downwind in CLT, arriving from the North and landing 36R with no traffic means you had better get slow and dirty to avoid a long final. In IFR conditions with a 20 mile final and spacing in trail you fly ATC assigned and configure accordingly.

It is a good operating practice and ATC will need to get used to it. Just letting a pilot know his sequence for both takeoff, single engine taxi out, and landing descent profile can go a long way for fuel savings.

Excellent response Groucho. I'm shocked this comes as a surprise to anyone, let alone a controller.

I can't wait for the rest of the aviation world to get on board the ADS-B bandwagon. Providing the other aircraft are also ADS-B equipped, you can select any target you wish and quickly ascertain his position, airspeed, altitude, trend vector both laterally and vertically, and most importantly your distance from him and your closure rate in kts ... makes following someone and maintaining an ideal separation a snap. In short, you see a snapshot of what a controller sees and the abundance of information at your fingertips allows for a far more efficient approach (in terms of fuel and spacing) if you are successful in cutting the ATC leash (via a visual.) I was reluctant at first, but I'm a believer now. To their credit, UPS is equipping all their aircraft with ADS-B and is at the forefront of the charge for this important technology.

Additionally, UPS has been successfully experimenting with VNAV/LNAV arrival procedures which allow for an uninterrupted idle descent from cruise altitude till approximately the FAF. Fuel savings, noise abatement, and overall efficiency (pack the most arrivals/hr) are all way up with these arrival procedures. Funny how everything seems to go smoother when ATC's role is substantially diminished.

BBB

 

[Big Duke Six]

Groucho and OpenClimb, great answers. Open stated:

Close parallel approaches make it more difficult to determine your sequence by using the TCAS system, too.

One little trick is to insert the parallel runway in your secondary, then when you're on downwind press the secondary button on your MCDU. It will show the final path of your runway (in green) and the final for the parallel runway (in white) on your ND, and it will be more apparent then as to who is going where. I occasionally use it to get a snapshot for planning purposes, then go right back to your primary on the ND as soon as you have the big picture.

 

[Hold West]

Y'all ain't listening.

I said, your sequence number is meaningless. It is. "You're number 6" when you still have 40 miles to fly to the airport and the other traffic is fast means nothing. "You're number 2" when you're on a 10 mile straight in and the traffic ahead is a C152 is still meaningless.

What is meaningful is for me to tell you what to expect, if it's out of the ordinary. That's what I try to communicate, and do fairly well, since I don't get the "what's my sequence" question very often. I'll say again, it makes much more sense to tell you to, for example, "expect a base leg 10 south of the airport, you'll be following a 717, I'll point him out when you get closer". If all you want is "You're number 3", well then so be it. A stupid answer to a stupid question.