"ATC explain yourself, over"

[GravityHater]

Is there a pragmatic reason a pilot would need to know how many a/c between him and the runway?
perfect VMC today with light traffic, no priority requested, and he says, "What sequence am I to the airport?"
Maybe there is a functional reason of which I am unaware, but it did sound from his tone to ask, "Why am *I* (as opposed to the other guys) being delayed?
So approach had to stop their job and sheepishly explain all the traffic on their scope, what he was planning and why he was # 5 or whatever.
Hope I heard it wrong.

 

[Hold West]

Is there a pragmatic reason a pilot would need to know how many a/c between him and the runway?
perfect VMC today with light traffic, no priority requested, and he says, "What sequence am I to the airport?"
Maybe there is a functional reason of which I am unaware, but it did sound from his tone to ask, "Why am *I* (as opposed to the other guys) being delayed?
So approach had to stop their job and sheepishly explain all the traffic on their scope, what he was planning and why he was # 5 or whatever.
Hope I heard it wrong.

That question pops up on frequency all the time.

I don't mind someone asking what to expect - if I'm cranking them around and slowing them, etc. Then again I'm not O'Hare approach, where that would be kind of a stupid question.

I do try, if it's a little busy, to tell someone what to expect - "United 37 heavy, reduce speed to 210, you're no. 4 following the second 737 ahead and to your right." Forestalls a lot of questions.

I do find the "What's my sequence" question to be fairly pointless. What will anyone do with the answer? "You're number 6." What's that tell you? I tend to just pick a random number out of the air - well, plus or minus three, I'm usually correct.

If someone wants an explanation of every airplane on my scope, call after you land, 'cause I'm not wasting everyone's time to give it to you over the frequency.

 

[cargoflyr69]

Do you know what kind of plane he was flying? Just a guess, but if it was a high performance (fast) single or twin maybe it would be good to know your sequence so you can plan a decent profile and slow and configure soon enough so you dont run down the 4 J-3 cubs that are ahead of you in the pattern...

 

[Groucho]

Gravity Hater,

Three is a very good reason to try to figure out where you are in the sequence when you are flying a jet. Yes, you can stooge around all day in a dirty flap configuration, or clean and fast, or anything in between. With fuel prices the way they are crews are trying to keep the airplane as clean as possible for as long as possible.

This practice can interfere with a stabilized approach if you push it too far. Knowing how long the final is and where you are in the stack allows a pilot to stay in the best place for fuel economy.

A high downwind in CLT, arriving from the North and landing 36R with no traffic means you had better get slow and dirty to avoid a long final. In IFR conditions with a 20 mile final and spacing in trail you fly ATC assigned and configure accordingly.

It is a good operating practice and ATC will need to get used to it. Just letting a pilot know his sequence for both takeoff, single engine taxi out, and landing descent profile can go a long way for fuel savings.

 

[awacs941]

Maybe he wanted to make sure that he all all of the planes ahead of him insight as to prevent him from overtaking the traffic he was following.

 

[Groucho]

I do find the "What's my sequence" question to be fairly pointless. What will anyone do with the answer? "You're number 6." What's that tell you? I tend to just pick a random number out of the air - well, plus or minus three, I'm usually correct.

Hold West,

You need to come ride my jump seat. "What's my sequence" both outbound and inbound is going to be very common. I know you may not like it but get used to it. It allows us to plan a min-fuel burn arrival. There is talk at my airline about putting in the FOM and emphasizing it in training. BTW putting it in the FOM with an FAA sign off makes it part of the approved operating procedure.

"What does it tell me?" It tells me how to configure and how fast to fly if I am not already assigned a speed.

 

[OpenClimb]

Groucho's answer is right on the mark.

I can fly at 210Kts clean in an Airbus or I can do it Flaps1. If I'm going to fly a 5 mile final, I'll probably select Flaps1 in anticipation of further descent. If the final is going to be 20+ miles long, I'll hang out in the clean configuration to save a little fuel.

Depending on how long we've been on frequency or how familiar we are with a particular airport, there is a chance we'll be able to figure out what's going on just by listening to the chatter. The real problem comes when we're away from a hub and we aren't aware of the standard practices of the local ATC. Close parallel approaches make it more difficult to determine your sequence by using the TCAS system, too.

Most of the time it's a valid question.

Hope this helps.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Gravity Hater,

Three is a very good reason to try to figure out where you are in the sequence when you are flying a jet. Yes, you can stooge around all day in a dirty flap configuration, or clean and fast, or anything in between. With fuel prices the way they are crews are trying to keep the airplane as clean as possible for as long as possible.

This practice can interfere with a stabilized approach if you push it too far. Knowing how long the final is and where you are in the stack allows a pilot to stay in the best place for fuel economy.

A high downwind in CLT, arriving from the North and landing 36R with no traffic means you had better get slow and dirty to avoid a long final. In IFR conditions with a 20 mile final and spacing in trail you fly ATC assigned and configure accordingly.

It is a good operating practice and ATC will need to get used to it. Just letting a pilot know his sequence for both takeoff, single engine taxi out, and landing descent profile can go a long way for fuel savings.

Excellent response Groucho. I'm shocked this comes as a surprise to anyone, let alone a controller.

I can't wait for the rest of the aviation world to get on board the ADS-B bandwagon. Providing the other aircraft are also ADS-B equipped, you can select any target you wish and quickly ascertain his position, airspeed, altitude, trend vector both laterally and vertically, and most importantly your distance from him and your closure rate in kts ... makes following someone and maintaining an ideal separation a snap. In short, you see a snapshot of what a controller sees and the abundance of information at your fingertips allows for a far more efficient approach (in terms of fuel and spacing) if you are successful in cutting the ATC leash (via a visual.) I was reluctant at first, but I'm a believer now. To their credit, UPS is equipping all their aircraft with ADS-B and is at the forefront of the charge for this important technology.

Additionally, UPS has been successfully experimenting with VNAV/LNAV arrival procedures which allow for an uninterrupted idle descent from cruise altitude till approximately the FAF. Fuel savings, noise abatement, and overall efficiency (pack the most arrivals/hr) are all way up with these arrival procedures. Funny how everything seems to go smoother when ATC's role is substantially diminished.

BBB

 

[Big Duke Six]

Groucho and OpenClimb, great answers. Open stated:

Close parallel approaches make it more difficult to determine your sequence by using the TCAS system, too.

One little trick is to insert the parallel runway in your secondary, then when you're on downwind press the secondary button on your MCDU. It will show the final path of your runway (in green) and the final for the parallel runway (in white) on your ND, and it will be more apparent then as to who is going where. I occasionally use it to get a snapshot for planning purposes, then go right back to your primary on the ND as soon as you have the big picture.

 

[Hold West]

Y'all ain't listening.

I said, your sequence number is meaningless. It is. "You're number 6" when you still have 40 miles to fly to the airport and the other traffic is fast means nothing. "You're number 2" when you're on a 10 mile straight in and the traffic ahead is a C152 is still meaningless.

What is meaningful is for me to tell you what to expect, if it's out of the ordinary. That's what I try to communicate, and do fairly well, since I don't get the "what's my sequence" question very often. I'll say again, it makes much more sense to tell you to, for example, "expect a base leg 10 south of the airport, you'll be following a 717, I'll point him out when you get closer". If all you want is "You're number 3", well then so be it. A stupid answer to a stupid question.

 

[Hold West]

You need to come ride my jump seat. "What's my sequence" both outbound and inbound is going to be very common. I know you may not like it but get used to it. It allows us to plan a min-fuel burn arrival. There is talk at my airline about putting in the FOM and emphasizing it in training. BTW putting it in the FOM with an FAA sign off makes it part of the approved operating procedure.

"What does it tell me?" It tells me how to configure and how fast to fly if I am not already assigned a speed.

I'd love to come sit in your jump seat - the FAA won't let me, hasn't since 9/11, and I don't think we ever will again. Too bad, I learned something everytime I went, and we have a whole crop of new controllers now that never have and never will have that experience, and I think it will show more and more as time passes. But I digress.

"Going to be very common"? I've been hearing that same question for 22 years now. Still as pointless now as it was then. If it goes in your FOM it will become even more pointless. Guys will just start telling everyone that checks in "you're number 7".

What I am saying, and listen up, is that it is my job to tell you what to expect in a meaningful fashion to allow you to make your plan. Just "You're number 7" does not accomplish that, and contains no useful information. What is useful, and this is what I get from jumpseat rides long ago, is information like "expect a turn on the localizer at about 12 miles, you'll be following a Caravan". Do you care about the 2 737s and the Dash 8 landing ahead of the Caravan? I'll bet you are more interested in how many flying miles you can plan on to the airport, and if you're following fast or slow traffic. I guess if you all prefer, I could just say "you're number 5" in the above situation, but again, please tell me how less information is an advantage.

 

[Hold West]

Funny how everything seems to go smoother when ATC's role is substantially diminished.

I'm praying for that day to come as much as you are. In fact, I can't wait until I can just lean back when there's about six of you all diving for the end of the runway at the same time, and just say, good luck! Then watch the s-turns, 360s and go arounds.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm praying for that day to come as much as you are. In fact, I can't wait until I can just lean back when there's about six of you all diving for the end of the runway at the same time, and just say, good luck! Then watch the s-turns, 360s and go arounds.

Exactly.....cats and dogs living together....mass insanity!

 

[Flyerjosh]

Generally, the only time that i'm really curious to know my sequence is when I'm waiting in line for taxi (gate hold/deice control) or departure/takeoff (especially when the sequence isn't obvious due to different fixes like in ORD). This info I can use to plan second engine startup, engine shutdown, and passenger briefings.

 

[rjacobs]

In the jet environment the only time I give a rats ass is if I am number 2 and need to look for the traffic so I can take a visual instead of getting vector out another mile or two and then cleared for the approach. But at the same time, I was told last week "your number 1 for the airport, reduce speed to 210 kts." Then he was telling everybody behind me do not exceed 210 for spacing, 200 for spacing, etc... I was like WTFO let me do 240 and then you dont have to slow down the next 10 airplanes for spacing since im number one. That just made no sense to me.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

I'm praying for that day to come as much as you are. In fact, I can't wait until I can just lean back when there's about six of you all diving for the end of the runway at the same time, and just say, good luck! Then watch the s-turns, 360s and go arounds.

Hold,

You seem like a pretty good guy, but you flatter yourself that efficient arrival operations could not be conducted with far less intrusion by Air Traffic Coordinators. In the USAF it was not uncommon to have 14 T-38's flown by STUDENT pilots (all doing 300 kts) in the overhead and extended pattern to the same runway simultaneously ... and all being minimally "de-conflicted" by another (gasp!) pilot ... not an ATC "specialist".

You do realize there are many aircraft operating across oceans and in various parts of the world that DO NOT communicate with ANYONE (including the tanker(s) they're rendezvousing with)... let alone an FAA certified ATC specialist and yet they successfully complete their missions "quietly" every day.

As I mentioned in my previous post, someone (a UPS pilot ... gasp! ) began to think ever so slightly "out of the box" and came up with a continuous idle VNAV/LNAV arrival into SDF from cruise altitude to the FAF. Bottom line, more aircraft arrive within a shorter time frame, burn less fuel, and produce less noise than previous ATC "specialist" directed speed up, slow down, extended 30 mi. finals.

I agree with you that I can't wait for the day you all are significantly removed from the coordination picture! Psst, it's called "free flight" (thanks to ADS-B) and it's coming. Perhaps you've read about it?

Hold, you seem like one of the good guys in ATC so my rant is not aimed at you personally. Just as UAV/UCAV is shaping modern warfare, so too will computers and high-speed datalink re-shape the rules and procedures we clumsily follow in the skies today. (Like it or not, BOTH of our hands-on duties are going to be substantially diminished in the future.)

BBB

 

[firstthird]

The main time I've seen guys on approach (here at SWA) ask is when we are close/high to the airport. We want to know if ATC has a reason to have us at 8000 feet as we pass overhead the runway going the wrong way, maybe because there is a bunch of traffic in front of us. Whereas if we are overhead at 8000 and are number one, we can start throwing down the gear and plan ourselves a visual to the runway.

It is called situational awareness and when either pilots or controllers play "I have a secret" we all end up with less of a picture than we want. (see thread about declaring an emergency. Controllers probably would prefer us to declare an emergency if we want emergency handling. Well, pilots want to be able to plan min fuel/min time approaches and we can't do that if we are kept in the dark about our sequence)

 

[FL420]

What is meaningful is for me to tell you what to expect

Maybe "what's my sequence" is pilot shorthand for "tell me what to expect." On the very rare occasions I use it, that's the information I'm looking for.

I may see a lot of airplanes out in front of me, see them on the TCAS and hear them on the radio. All this information contributes to my SA and leads me to form expectations as to when and where to start configuring my aircraft. What I need to know is if those expectations coincide with the controllers. On the one hand I am trying to save fuel and give the PAX a smooth ride. OTOH, I am trying to be prepared, speed and configuration-wise, in case I get "slam dunked." It happens much more often than it should and can scare the PAX and raise the risk factor when it happens.

if it's out of the ordinary.

Controllers work the same airspace, airport(s) and procedures every day, day after day. Pilots, OTOH, work different airports and procedures all over the country and sometimes, all over the world. What's ordinary to you is rarely ordinary to us.

 

[flx757]

I agree with you that I can't wait for the day you all are significantly removed from the coordination picture! Psst, it's called "free flight" (thanks to ADS-B) and it's coming. Perhaps you've read about it?


BBB

"Free flight". Yeah, I've read about it. Beginning at least 15 years ago. They said "it's coming". I'm still waiting. And I bet I'll be waiting long after I've left this business.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Since we're on a similar topic....some folks seem to feel that they should always be able to depart #1, climb straight to cruise altitude, fly their exact routing at normal speed, descend and land #1 without any sort of delay. It seems that they feel as though it is the ATCer's job to make sure that their flight turns out as I described above. I have flown with these types before, and their constant b!tching about delays gets on my nerves a hell of a lot more than the delays themselves. If you're one of these that gets all pissy because there are 12 airplanes in front of you to land at a major airport, calm the hell down already. It gets old. Okay, vent over.

As for the topic, one may ask for the sequence just for planning and situational awareness purposes. I have asked that myself in the past.