ATC and Wx Below Mins

[Way2Broke]

Does ATC have to tell you if the field has gone below mins? ATC has always been very helpful to me when trying to "get in" somewhere, but I was wondering what they are required to do when the wx dops.

 

[GravityHater]

I don''t think so, how would they even know the mins for your particular airplane. I think they just report any significant changes.

 

[Vector4fun]

Yes we do, as soon as possible. Sometimes "possible" just happens to be right after you pass the FAF inbound......​

Controller's Handbook, 7110.65



4-7-10. APPROACH INFORMATION

a. Both en route and terminal approach control sectors shall provide current approach information to aircraft destined to airports for which they provide approach control services. This information shall be provided on initial contact or as soon as possible thereafter. Approach information contained in the ATIS broadcast may be omitted if the pilot states the appropriate ATIS code. For pilots destined to an airport without ATIS, items 3-5 below may be omitted after the pilot advises receipt of the automated weather; otherwise, issue approach information by including the following:

​

1. Approach clearance or type approach to be expected if two or more approaches are published and the clearance limit does not indicate which will be used.
2. Runway if different from that to which the instrument approach is made.
3. Surface wind.
4. Ceiling and visibility if the reported ceiling at the airport of intended landing is below 1,000 feet or below the highest circling minimum, whichever is greater, or the visibility is less than 3 miles.
​

​

5. Altimeter setting for the airport of intended landing.
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-[/SIZE][SIZE=-2]
FAAO 7110.65, Chapter 2, Section 7, Altimeter Settings.[/SIZE]
​

​

b. Upon pilot request, controllers shall inform pilots of the frequency where automated weather data may be obtained and, if appropriate, that airport weather is not available.
PHRASEOLOGY-
(Airport) AWOS/ASOS WEATHER AVAILABLE ON (frequency).
​

​

1. ASOS/AWOS shall be set to provide one minute weather at uncontrolled airports that are without ground-to-air weather broadcast capability by a CWO, NWS or FSS observer.
2. Controllers will consider the long-line disseminated weather from an automated weather system at an uncontrolled airport as trend information only and shall rely on the pilot for the current weather information for that airport.
3. Controllers shall issue the last long-line disseminated weather to the pilot if the pilot is unable to receive the ASOS/AWOS broadcast.
NOTE-
Aircraft destined to uncontrolled airports, which have automated weather data with broadcast capability, should monitor the ASOS/AWOS frequency to ascertain the current weather at the airport. The pilot should advise the controller when he/she has received the broadcast weather and state his/her intentions.
​

​

c. Issue any known changes classified as special weather observations as soon as possible. Special weather observations need not be issued after they are included in the ATIS broadcast and the pilot states the appropriate ATIS code.

d. Advise pilots when the ILS/MLS on the runway in use is not operational if that ILS/MLS is on the same frequency as an operational ILS/MLS serving another runway.

EXAMPLE-
"Expect visual approach runway two five right, runway two five right I-L-S not operational."

[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-[/SIZE][SIZE=-2]
FAAO 7110.65, Altimeter Setting Issuance Below Lowest Usable FL, Para 2-7-2.
FAAO 7110.65, Approach Information, Para 5-10-2.
14 CFR Section 91.129 Operations in Class D Airspace, Subpara (d)(2).[/SIZE]

e. TERMINAL: If multiple runway transitions are depicted on a STAR procedure, advise pilots of the runway assignment on initial contact or as soon as possible thereafter.
​

​

Also:

2-8-2. ARRIVAL/DEPARTURE RUNWAY VISIBILITY​

a. Issue current touchdown RVR/RVV for the runway(s) in use: ​

1. When prevailing visibility is 1 mile or less regardless of the value indicated.
2. When RVR/RVV indicates a reportable value regardless of the prevailing visibility.
NOTE-
Reportable values are: RVR 6,000 feet or less; RVV 11/2 miles or less.
3. When it is determined from a reliable source that the indicated RVR value differs by more than 400 feet from the actual conditions within the area of the transmissometer, the RVR data is not acceptable and shall not be reported.
NOTE-
A reliable source is considered to be a certified weather observer, automated weather observing system, air traffic controller, flight service specialist, or pilot. ​

4. When the observer has reliable reports, or has otherwise determined that the instrument values are not representative of the associated runway, the data shall not be used. ​

b. Issue both mid-point and roll-out RVR when the value of either is less than
2,000 feet and the touchdown RVR is greater than the mid-point or roll-out RVR.
c. Local control shall issue the current RVR/RVV to each aircraft prior to landing or departure in accordance with subparas a and b. ​

 

[apdsm]

ATC is required to issue weather as in the previous post. As far as letting you know it is below mins, well, they do not know the mins. Different operators have different mins and there are other factors; e.g. MEL's.

 

[SCT]

We were leaving Santa Monica one early foggy morning and ATC helped us out. The RVR was just under our 135 take off mini. We had the paxs loaded and I advised the ground controller to call us back when the RVR went up. He asked us what we needed and then said by the time we taxi to the end it would be above what we needed! Cool guy.

Vector4fun, does his happen very often?

 

[casper1nine]

i've seen that happen with the density altitude at D.F. mexico city once or twice.....

-casper

 

[Vector4fun]

Vector4fun, does his happen very often?

Ummm, since our ASOS and RVR readings are recorded by computer nowadays, *I* am not going to put my butt too far out on a limb by fibbing about the RVR. I'm usually happy to call Ops or a crew at the gate though, to let them know the vis is improving, might want to crank up at least one...

Years and years ago, when FSS was still around at all sorts of smaller fields, we'd sometimes call over and get them to take a five minute "special", especially if it was the last flight of the day. That may still happen at places with human observers, but I wouldn't know anything about that.....

 

[Way2Broke]

Below mins was not a good way to put it I guess. Thank you very much for your help Vectors.

 

[NoPax]

ATC Help

Great info.

Once overheard a phone conversation one time that went like this

Pilot ' Hi, this is XXX###, how's the weather....[pause] oh, ok...well our ETD is in 30 minutes, and we'll need 1800RVR..[pause]..thanks, see you later'

At an airport I've been to, they'll turn the lights up all the way for you, until it registers a better RVR. [step 5 i think]

I was going into an airport one time served by SWA. Expecting to hold for the weather to improve - 500 RVR fog. The winds were a 90 degree crosswind at 12 knots, so conditions were improving. SWA checks on (#2 for the approach) and tells the controller that they'll have to hold till the 'weather goes up to 1800 RVR...oh, and we'll need a 10kt wind out of the west with that also, thanks'

 

[501261]

We were leaving Santa Monica one early foggy morning and ATC helped us out. The RVR was just under our 135 take off mini. We had the paxs loaded and I advised the ground controller to call us back when the RVR went up. He asked us what we needed and then said by the time we taxi to the end it would be above what we needed! Cool guy.

Ummm, since our ASOS and RVR readings are recorded by computer nowadays, *I* am not going to put my butt too far out on a limb by fibbing about the RVR. I'm usually happy to call Ops or a crew at the gate though, to let them know the vis is improving, might want to crank up at least one

Well, since SMO doesn't have RVR, it shouldn't have been too difficult to bring he vis up .

 

[SCT]

501,

I thought it was the SMO airport. It's been awhile. Is SuperMarine at SMO? It might have been the ATIS vis. report......anyways it was a funny moment!

SCT

 

[Mr Wu]

The RVR was just under our 135 take off mini. We had the paxs loaded and I advised the ground controller to call us back when the RVR went up. He asked us what we needed and then said by the time we taxi to the end it would be above what we needed! Cool guy.

Teacher, teacher!! You forgot to give us homework.

Dumbass!!

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Well, we tell you its below mins by the ATIS. Current WX reported below mins, we report it, as we are required. Certain criteria, I.E. WX goes from 1 mile to 1/4 or from 1/4 to 1 mile...Speci. So, we don't say hey EJA242, WX below mins, its just on the atis what the WX is. If you want to shoot an approach to my airport at we have vis M1/4, VV001 and RVR of 0600. Come on in, I don't read the RVR until your past the marker, thats for you 135 boys! Trying to get you in

 

[minitour]

Does ATC ever give a higher intercept altitude for an ILS than normal if weather is "iffy"...just to get you inside the "FAF" before weather goes down again? Say 4000 instead of 3000? How does that work?

-mini

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

mmmm....i work the tower, wish i worked the TRACON or the ARTCC but what would be the point of a higher alt??? If your IMC, the Wx at the field is IMC....ive flown many many approaches to mins...what would be the point of a higher altitude on a vector for the ILS, your gonna have to punch through the S... regardles. I would have to say no. In my exp....as an ex corp pilot, throw together a few years in the radar sim in college, and 2 years as a tower puke...bring you in as published, try the approach and if you don't get it at the DH....we will see you next time around!

 

[minitour]

what would be the point of a higher altitude on a vector for the ILS,

Because the FAF on an ILS is GS intercept...so once you intercept you're inside the FAF...and can continue the approach if weather pops below minimums (unless you're 91...then you can try it anyway).

...just curious if that applied to the ATC side of things as well.

-mini

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Well, there is a gray area with what you just said, GS intercept is the FAF. That has been argued since the day I started my instrument. Whos says under part 91 you cant attempt the approach anyways, and well, 121 and 135 not too much knowledge there as I only flew part135 a short deal, and well....I don't want to get into the sketchy ordeal. The Key is RVR, because ive had less then 100ft on OVC, and less the 1/4 mile....RVR 2400.....lets do it. It should make no difference what alt you intercept the ILS at, the WX at the airport is going to make no diff....hence why I ask for a report at the OM......wait 5 seconds...oh by the way RWY32 RVR006......your gonna make an atempt anyways....I don't understand that 135 driver stuck in ahold for 45 mins, a CE550 makes it in with current wx...part91, a GV makes it in 91, a 135 kingair in the hold....vectored for the ILS, outside the marker, what is the RVR??? ....dont ask me that or you going back to PYE to hold for another 30 mins....ill read it to you when i feel the time is right, as it is my job and im required to when less the 6000ft or less then 1sm

 

[FlyboyPhil]

FAF is GS intercept at the published altitude, or at a lower altitude if authorized by ATC... so intercepting it 25 miles out doesn't mean you are at the FAF.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Well, im not gonna argue a FAF for an ILS....that is not relavent in this case.....the comment was made, will a controller clear you at a higher alit.....what difference does it make what alt. your cleared for the ILS, the WX at the field is not gonna change.

 

[Ill Mitch]

I remember back in the good ol' days when CNO would look to the left and the vis would be a mile and a half...then look to the right and the vis would be a mile and half. They would then add the two together and call it three miles.

 

[rubicon789]

Do freight dogs have mins? :nuts:
Don't ask ATC for weather till after you cross the FAF, then you can legally shoot the approach no matter what the WX.

 

[A Squared]

Well, im not gonna argue a FAF for an ILS....that is not relavent in this case.....

Actually, it is relevant, that's the issue at hand. Mini was suggesting that there would be a benefit to giving an higher intercept altitude bacause you would intercept the g/s sooner, therefore be inside the FAF sooner, in case wx deteriorates.

The only problem with that theory is that, as Flyboyphil pointed out, it's not considered the FAF unless you're at the gs intercept altitude specified on the IAP.

 

[minitour]

Actually, it is relevant, that's the issue at hand. Mini was suggesting that there would be a benefit to giving an higher intercept altitude bacause you would intercept the g/s sooner, therefore be inside the FAF sooner, in case wx deteriorates.

The only problem with that theory is that, as Flyboyphil pointed out, it's not considered the FAF unless you're at the gs intercept altitude specified on the IAP.

That's the part I was missing...which clears it all up.

Thanks!

-mini

 

[Gemboy75]

I don't believe you can land regardless of inside or ouside the FAF part 91 or otherwise.

We all know the requirements to leave DH or MDA and required flight visibility is listed.

AD 97-1A states that RVR is controlling to flight visibility and therefore regardless of your position on the approach if you land and you were notified that RVR was below your mins for your specific catagory of approach, well the way I read it you've just violated an FAR.

Just joined up glad to see ATC folk use this page!

 

[minitour]

I don't believe you can land regardless of inside or ouside the FAF part 91 or otherwise.

Land, no...you've got to have the visibility required by the approach.

But to shoot the approach is where the weather can get you pt 121 or 135.

Part 91, if it's 0/0 you can shoot the ILS all you want...but if you don't have the required vis. you can't land.

Pt 135/121, you can't start the approach if it's below minimums (vis/rvr) but...if you've started the approach and passed the FAF before weather goes below minimums, you can continue...and land if you've got the required visibility at landing.

-mini

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

well, the controller is required to tell you RVR for the rwy if it is reported at less the 6000 on the RVR meeter or vis is less then 1mile....why not just call up tower on the approach and then tell them you don't want to hear what RVR is until your established......they will comply, they don't care, as long as the read it before you hit the pavement

 

[rubicon789]

why not just call up tower on the approach and then tell them you don't want to hear what RVR is until your established

Why say more than you need to?