AT ALPA high road

[NuGuy]

Well, you sort of understand the process but draw the complete wrong conclusion.

1. The MEC appoints the NC and gives them the goals for the negotiation.
2. The NC negotiates the best deal they can. The MEC (hopefully!) stays out of the negotiations completely.
3. The NC brings back the results of the negotiation to the MEC.
4. The MEC then decides if the results of the negotiation should be sent to the pilot group for ratification. If they like it, they send it with a positive recommendation. If its OK they send it with a neutral recommendation. If its a POS they don't send it out to the membership.

An MEC should never send something to the rank and file with a negative recommendation. That's passing the buck to the membership instead of doing your job as an MEC.

Disagree on this slightly.

The absolute WORST is when an MEC passes something along with either no or a neutral recommendation. That is a complete abdication of leadership, especially that despite road shows and bullet points, the membership very rarely gets to see all of the details (negotiator's notes, behind-the-scenes data, etc).

With that said, IMHO, the AT MEC did exactly what they were supposed to do. They reviewed a proposed agreement, weighed it carefully, looked at all the nit-noid details and then made a decision. This has happened plenty of times in airline negotiating history. It's not bad faith negotiating, it's looking at the total agreement, adding up the bottom line, and making a decision.

The fact that they went to GREAT lengths to poll their membership, and even went so far as keeping recorded logs of that polling, tells me they did their homework, checked the boxes and made the right call. This process was ALL included in the process agreement.

Now they're moving to the next step impassionatly as another step in the process. A process that was clearly outlined and included this very eventuality. A process, I might add, that was agreed to by everyone involved.


I don't see any responsible party saying "well, yea, that's what we agreed to, but we didn't really think it'd get this far, so, um, yea, we're going to welch on that."

Nu

 

[GoodTimes]

You guys make it sound like the AAI MEC was completely out of the loop during the entire negotiating process. Hard to believe. Especially hard to believe considering they went back to the table after SWAPA had approved the AIP. Regardless, it's the perception that counts at this point. Simply stated, it looks bad.

 

[JT12345]

Sacha,

The way I see it is the AT F/Os should have had some better seniority and the the senior SWA F/Os should get any capt seat that their seniority can hold. I think this would have been fair for both sides. Screw all this protecting the capts and base protection crap. If you are at AT and you want more seniority, then you should be willing to walk away from your capt seat if you cant hold it. Also, maybe throw in some upgrades for the SWA guys that come from SWA retirements. Do you think that this is reasonable?

That is what this was about. Well it did not work out. So we try a different route towards happiness and a positive outcome.

A valid point, and I would like the SWA guys to chime in on this?

Would they take the CA seats for a deal or do it the hard way and try to compel their boss to liquidate us and get the seats that way... the long and hard way. The risky way. Will GK do this. Unknowns.

And you can't upgrade a few hundred Captains overnight. That would destroy SWA. Our AAI guys still get paid like a AT Captain that the SWA guys brag about on here, and seniority is fair. We enter as equals with the seniority, the respect and quality of life that our years of service, and sacrifice at AAI warrants.

You see I think there are still ways to negotiate this if you get over the previous agreement, and move on. There are so many ways for this to happen by SWAPA/GK and ALPA or even the arbitrator. The sky is not falling. This is what is on every ones minds, so lets get it out there.

 

[Fubijaakr]

We enter as equals with the seniority, the respect and quality of life that our years of service, and sacrifice at AAI warrants.

Exactly. And that's the argument that will hold the most water with the arbitrator.

Not "Hired, not acquired."
Not "I bought a type rating to get interviewed."
Not "You guys are getting a pay raise."
Not even "I have a bigger watch and a flag tie."

Even the DUMBEST arbitrator can recognize a seniority grab when he sees it. NO WINDFALLS is the key to Bond/McCaskill. That's all that matters.

P.S. Pay doesn't count. Its a SENIORITY list integration, not a PAYCHECK integration.

 

[GoodTimes]

Gotta reconcile the age and retirement issues.

Better AAI seniority is akin to a seniority grab 10, 15, 20 years down the road.

Even the DUMBEST arbitrator can recognize that.

 

[scoreboardII]

Disagree on this slightly.

The absolute WORST is when an MEC passes something along with either no or a neutral recommendation. That is a complete abdication of leadership,
Nu

Your statement lacks a basis in fact.

Leadership is not defined as "taking away the members right to vote".

True leadership would have been to send it out with their no vote recommendation and rationale why, per the request of the CEO.

True leadership would have seen value in both complying with the desire of your new boss, and still provide the membership guidance.

What the MEC did was unconscionable and an abdication of their duty to the membership and the company they now work for.

What the MEC did was dictatorial, not leadership.

 

[scoreboardII]

P.S. Pay doesn't count. Its a SENIORITY list integration, not a PAYCHECK integration.

This is the dumbest statement seen on FI.

It's all about the pay.

Look at every award: paycheck, meet seniority list position. There is no way a bankrupt F9 Airbus CA could be placed that high on a list if it wasn't for a few reasons, one: pay, two: mainline aircraft.

In your small world of NWA/Delta or CO/UAL, sure, thats all relative based on pay.

30-50% increase FL to SWA? Thats a windfall. End game age differences at retirement? Thats a windfall. All balanced by seniority award. I won't even go into how the 717 is an RJ.

Your arguments grow stale.

 

[Andy]

The absolute WORST is when an MEC passes something along with either no or a neutral recommendation. That is a complete abdication of leadership, especially that despite road shows and bullet points, the membership very rarely gets to see all of the details (negotiator's notes, behind-the-scenes data, etc).

Please. This is nothing more than a negotiating strategy to double check and see if there was anything else left on the table. I don't think that it was the proper strategy in this instance. Time will tell.

 

[SWA/FO]

Even the DUMBEST arbitrator can recognize a seniority grab when he sees it. NO WINDFALLS is the key to Bond/McCaskill. That's all that matters.

Even the DUMBEST aviator can see a lost opportunity. Wonder if there is a second chance?

 

[Muppets]

Even the DUMBEST aviator can see a lost opportunity. Wonder if there is a second chance?

I wonder that too SWA/FO. With a family at home, I would be lying if I said Ive been sleeping well.

 

[Sacha]

I wonder that too SWA/FO. With a family at home, I would be lying if I said Ive been sleeping well.

Well First Officer Muppet, with 4 years seniority and given the stupidity of your union, you shouldn't be sleeping well. Where you end up on the list is a moot point. It's at the bottom. Even if the arbitrator is sleeping with every F/A at your airline it won't matter. You are in grave danger of seeing a 140,000/yr flying job disappear when aircraft on your side start disappearing. We will all see how it shakes out, but if the hardball, middle finger in the face of Gary by your union BS continues, you'll be the first to go.

 

[Muppets]

Well First Officer Muppet, with 4 years seniority and given the stupidity of your union, you shouldn't be sleeping well. Where you end up on the list is a moot point. It's at the bottom. Even if the arbitrator is sleeping with every F/A at your airline it won't matter. You are in grave danger of seeing a 140,000/yr flying job disappear when aircraft on your side start disappearing. We will all see how it shakes out, but if the hardball, middle finger in the face of Gary by your union BS continues, you'll be the first to go.

God, you are a wealth of information. I look forward to discussing all of this with you in person.

 

[redflyer65]

I wonder that too SWA/FO. With a family at home, I would be lying if I said Ive been sleeping well.

Muppets,

We on this side understand there is a human component. Will you please call your LEC and MEC and tell them to work toward a negotiated agreement with SWAPA.

Let me say, we are not affraid of arbitration, but I don't think Gary wants to go there. If this doesn't come out of negotiation, I hate to say it but it will definetly force Gary's hand. I'm not threating here, but just making some statements with regard to were I think Gary might take this deal.

Thanks for your candor.

 

[Sacha]

God, you are a wealth of information. I look forward to discussing all of this with you in person.

Are you threatening an Old Man Mr. Muppets? That's what it sounds like to me.

 

[chase]

I wonder that too SWA/FO. With a family at home, I would be lying if I said Ive been sleeping well.

I've had several of my AAI friends tell me the same thing. I wish the AAI MEC had chosen a different path for your members, it sounds like that is a similar wish among others at AAI now.

To accomplish a negotiated settlement vs. arbitrated (not desired by any party), SWA has reached out and asked for an extension. We know what ALPA has said but there is time between now and when AAI & SWA pilots meet in Sept for action on the part of AAI pilots to let their wishes be known and alter the course your current leaders have chosen.

SWA pilots can't make the changes necessary within AAI ALPA and some might argue there is not time nor the horsepower to overcome the internal union obstructions in making a change to the decision to not extend pilot to pilot negotiations. I hope that is not the case but your fate is in your own hands.

IMHO, AAI pilots best chance at getting a resolution/new SLI AIP (less than SL9 obviously) is to use the time between now and those dates to affect internal change at your union to get the ship back on course.

I don't wish any of the AAI pilots to have the angst they have in their lives right now....I've never been in a position of a furlough, possible job loss or a loss of seniority such as all of your members are facing. I won't insult anyone by saying I know how you feel, I don't.

My hope is that AAI pilots will join SWA as soon as possible and understand the fate of doing so lies solely in your hands at this point. Allowing an arbitrator to decide will move it out of your hands and you will no longer have 100% guarantees of the future.

The same fork in the road occurred previously when the MEC decided for the AAI pilots to not accept the AIP; please don't have buyer's remorse for the second time by not taking the offer that GK has made for an extension in hopes of finding a negotiated settlement.

ALPA is doing you a disservice IMHO, read the two different versions of how the offer to extend discussions by SWA was reported by ALPA vs. SWAPA and then SWA. If two parties report it the same way and the third doesn't, who is "spinning" the facts? If they will spin the facts over such a small issue, imagine their willingness to spin facts on bigger issues.

If you believe this is fear mongering, that is not my intent; it simply stating the case in as simple of terms as possible in hopes to return some peace to your life and to your family.

Joining the SWA team will be a life changing and positive event for you all (most I should say, some can't be made happy regardless), we can all make the airline the strongest out there but your fate is back in your own hands, don't let it slip away again.

Best of luck to both pilot groups,