Astar - Point The Blame Where It Belongs

[AV8OR]

I have no dog in this fight but BBB has a point. This isn't UPS' fault. Y'all should be protesting DHL, not UPS. I am even sympathetic to you guys but, UPS isn't your enemy.

First...DHL, isn't really the "enemy" per se..."DHL" had apparently begun to learn their lesson in the US and was making plans to make changes...DPWN..on the other hand...THEY are the problem. THAT is where the boneheadedness is coming from. SO technically, DPWN is who we are protesting. That being said...it is VERY difficult to "protest" DPWN because. A. they are across the pond. And B. Because the German media is loathe, scratch that, totally unwilling to print ANYTHING, paid ad or otherwise that is critical of DPWN. DPWN's money and influence trumps the concept of "free press" in Germany..period. Sooo...we are left with trying to poke our finger in the eye of this deal...anyway we can in the US...i.e. target the "players" as they are reported in the US media, and that means DHL and UPS. At the end of the day, at least for me, I don't have a problem with UPS or for that matter even DHL. But those are the two vehicle's being used by DPWN to circumvent our (ALPA's) contract. DPWN, via DHL, has flaunted US law in a number of ways for years. DPWN has no (0) integrity when it comes to abiding by contracts they sign, agreements they make, or abiding by US law and the judges that preside over them. They, again via DHL, violated our scope regarding ABX, Polar Air Cargo, and Northwest Airlines Cargo out of Alaska. Of the three, the only arbitration that ever made it to arbitration was the NWA violation. DHL A. Didn't show up at arbitration. B. Lost at arbitration. C. Ignored the arbitrator's ruling. D. Tried to (once again) to use the US court system to tie up their obligation to comply with the ruling. DPWN, via DHL, knowing their intentions to shift flying to UPS, used our contract negotiations, to eliminate what would have most likely been an obstacle in getting a deal done with UPS....so they lied to us and promised GROWTH, while at the same time making plans to eliminate us...that is called FRAUD. Now, thus far we have no idea whether or not UPS was aware of, or colluding with DPWN in their effort to once again, break their agreement(s) with ALPA, but hopefully we will find out if negotiated correspondence between UPS and DPWN hasn't been thoroughly shredded by now.

Either way, we (ALPA) are DONE letting DPWN absolutely crap all over our CBA and try and use the US court system at their whim and discretion to do it...sooo, we are at full court press in EVERY WAY POSSSIBLE to see that this deal is derailed one way or the other. Period. That means level and steady fire at ALL associated parties. UPS wants to on the one hand, aid DPWN in shifting ALL of the North American flying to their company, in what we believe is a total violation of what DPWN via DHL negotiated with ALPA just three months ago!! The comments by some of the UPS pilots on this board speak to the attitude of UPS.."You little pi$$ ants over there at AStar just just shut up and go away quietly. There's no way you can win. UPS always gets what it wants. Don't pi$$ off UPS or there's NO WAY you'll ever get a job here once we take over all of your flying. etc"" UPS wants to say..."Hey guys, it's just business..nothing personal." On the other hand, when we protest UPS in their role as a player here, then they get all pi$$y and take it personal. WHAT? Are we supposed to simply just sit idle and let DPWN once again lie and screw us while UPS takes our flying and say nothing in the hopes that UPS, of all companies, would maybe...maybe...grant us the priviledge of maybe an interview at UPS....yeah...right. Just like at ABX when we filed scope there...if the shoe was on the other foot at UPS...they'd be screamin bloody murder. But since it's just 525 pilots at little old AStar, the attitude by some is "Sorry dude..sux to be you. Now just pack up your career, dust off your resume and go away....quietly please....we don't want you to screw this up for US". Well, sorry UPS...IT"S JUST BUSINESS...remember? You had/have no intention of even winking in the direction of the pilots whose flying you will be taking. You NEVER have. And we know it. We've been handed a death sentence by DPWN and UPS...therefore, we have NOTHING TO LOSE. And for anyone to insinuate that we do/did have something to lose at UPS....please...spare me. History has demonstrated what UPS's MO is regarding pilots of an airline they help shut down.

So for all of you on this board that want to second guess and give advice to those of us at AStar fighting for our jobs...whatever is left of of em when the smoke clears on this thing, preciate it...but but it's not your fight....and trust me...I pray you never ever find yourself in one like it.

It may not work, but if we go down, we are going to by-God go down swinging...at everybody involved (sorry UPS). In light of some of the weak backed, limp wristedness of modern airline negotiations, I know that's a novel concept for some.

Peace out.

 

[shooter]

Oh, I know by posting this I will get AV80R (not AV8OR) out of the shadows since our last conversation when I said I understand how important it is that DHL workers fight this deal. And how I now understand why people protest the WTO meetings, fighting this deal is the "right thing to do", workers getting shafted by companies all for the bottom line etc. etc. etc. But this economics professor understands exactly what I have been saying (or, I understand what he is saying) and here 'goes:

http://www.timesgazette.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=155712

[FONT=ARIAL, SANS SERIF]8/4/2008 11:17:00 AM [/FONT][FONT=ARIAL, SANS SERIF]Email this article • Print this article [/FONT][FONT=ARIAL, SANS SERIF]Stand by workers in DHL battle[/FONT]

[FONT=ARIAL, SANS SERIF]By BILL HORNE[/FONT]
[FONT=ARIAL, SANS SERIF]SSCC Economics Professor[/FONT]

[FONT=ARIAL, SANS SERIF]Folks, I have been ranting, some would call it whining, against the World Trade Organization (WTO) for, well actually since close to its inception. And, now right here in our local communities people are beginning to wake up and take a stand.

The WTO pits country against country to see which country will allow companies to operate with the lowest or no tax obligations, and to see which country will pay the most in free government subsides - in other words, taxpayer's money.

The WTO also pits U.S. state against U.S. state, so if DHL moves to Louisville it will be Kentucky's gain and our loss - too bad for us. It also pits community against community, family against family and worker against worker. All of us are trying to outdo each other to see who can work the cheapest and the most hours.

We have become so good at underbidding each other for jobs that we now have 20 percent of our young families with children living below the poverty line. And, our families are working 540 hours per year more now than we did in just the past generation. That doesn't consider the number of hours that we are forced to work off the clock. Working "off the clock" means that employees are expected to donate time to the company. Of course, that is only true if they want to keep their jobs. This practice of giving companies time is becoming more common.

All over the world, workers are back-stabbing each other to entice companies to allow them to work on the cheap.

But not here. Not here in our communities. Our workers are taking a stand that is being heard all around the world.

I am referring to the fight that the Wilmington Air Park Employees are putting up against the German post office.

Folks, my wife and I have been attending most of the meetings that I am going to refer to as the DHL issue.

Most of the meetings have big-time government officials. And I believe that these officials really are trying to do their best.

However, we attended a DHL situation meeting recently that was organized by a worker.

What impressed us most about this particular meeting was that it was run in an orderly manner and these workers, many of them with tears in their eyes, are determined to not go down without a fight. And I don't mean a little fight.

For years, I have been telling my students that someday middle class workers will wake up. Well, I believe today is that day. Plant and companies have shut down and moved and just about every corner of our country and workers have taken little or no action.

But not the Air Park employees, and I use the term Air Park because there are so many companies that are directly affected and dozens if not hundreds more that are indirectly affected that they cannot all be named.

One worker stated that DHL under estimated our local workers. They thought that a bunch of rural workers would just roll over and play dead.

So much for that thought. Some of these workers have been picketing and protesting all over the country. And from what I have observed, these workers, if you don't know any of them, are everyday people just like you and me.

DHL is not the only target. UPS is also a target. The reason for this is that these two companies seem to be the last two companies in this industry and they are talking about joining ranks.

This DHL situation is similar in many respects to a natural disaster like a flood or fire or a hurricane. The difference though is that this pain is being inflicted by man on man.

One writer recently wrote, and I cannot remember where I read it, that to be a supervisor or manager in these large corporations is becoming more and more difficult. His thinking was that as managers they must force their employees to work harder and longer hours and in unsafe conditions. These same managers must take away pensions, health care, refuse to fix pollution problems, force workers to work off the clock, cut wages, take more and more time away from each employees family time, and take away personal dignity and pride of workmanship.

Folks, if these working people need help in their fight against DHL, let's step up to the plate and help them, because as Pogo would probably have said, "They are us." They really are us and our relatives and our friends and our neighbors and members of our community.

We live and work in a system that has produced the greatest society the world has ever known. We work in our own best interest. And, that will also be in the best interest of our society. However, it is now in our best interest to take a stand and to work together.

This huge company thought that it could run over its workers, just desert or throw them away like we would an old shoe. But, here in the heart of Ohio, the state that is the heart of it all they have a fight on their hands that just may wake up all American workers.

We are Americans first and I have observed that the workers fighting this fight have put aside community differences, religious, racial, political, age, and gender differences. Even the politicians are working together.

We hope for the best but we must prepare for the worst. If the employees of the Air Park companies lose this battle with DHL, and I believe that the odds are in their favor to win, the government can or will only do so much to help. This means that we must help each other, neighbor to neighbor, until we are all back on our feet again.[/FONT]

 

[flyinboxes]

BBB, you as a either a manglement type or lawyer for DHL or UPS should know, the USPS is not subject to anti-trust law and that argument is irrelevant to this case.
Guys, enough with feeding this guy information he has no business knowing. He is not one of us and I suggest we end this conversation.

 

[Publishers]

As stated elsewhere, the concept of anti trust is one which is by its nature predatory. When DHL gives up a market, I don't know how it can be expected to be made to compete.
In the end, Fedex and UPS make their money on the ground not in the air. For all of them, it is nusance. As this plan may make sense in cutting air cost, their ability to keep a satisfactory delivery and pick up operation going may be the biggest challenge.

 

[hvydriver]

As stated elsewhere, the concept of anti trust is one which is by its nature predatory. When DHL gives up a market, I don't know how it can be expected to be made to compete.
In the end, Fedex and UPS make their money on the ground not in the air. For all of them, it is nusance. As this plan may make sense in cutting air cost, their ability to keep a satisfactory delivery and pick up operation going may be the biggest challenge.

I agree with what you've said here, except for the part about DHL "giving up" on the US.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

If this DHL/UPS deal goes through, their only option would be for their package to go on a Brown plane or a Purple plane. No matter who they ship with, their ONLY air option will be priced from one of those two carriers.

Everything I've read about this deal so far indicates that DHL is planning, at least for the time being, to maintain their own billing and tracking systems. The only part that's being "outsourced" is the travel between cities. How does "the color of the plane" upon which the cargo travels control pricing?

Maybe you are right that it is only producing political pressure due to an election year. Or maybe they realize just how devastating it would be to other small businesses, the district tax base that would affect not just the households but the schools, police, fire and other community services. I would think that is why they are involved more than just to "save the jobs" campaign. Maybe I am wrong.

Neither candidate has pledged to do anything other than "look into it" which is political double-speak for "Ask me again after the election." This deal may be a loss of jobs at one particular company or within the region, but it's not a net loss of jobs. Somebody still has to fly it, sort it, then fly it again. It will be different "somebodies," that's all.

How is this situation any different than that faced by steelworkers in the 70's? The government couldn't "force" the steel companies (who were also losing billions to antiquated methods and foreign competition) to stay in business. So they gave the heads-of-households $158 per week and food stamps, while they retrained them to be backhoe operators and small-appliance repairmen.

 

[Cargoav8or]

Everything I've read about this deal so far indicates that DHL is planning, at least for the time being, to maintain their own billing and tracking systems. The only part that's being "outsourced" is the travel between cities. How does "the color of the plane" upon which the cargo travels control pricing?Neither candidate has pledged to do anything other than "look into it" which is political double-speak for "Ask me again after the election." This deal may be a loss of jobs at one particular company or within the region, but it's not a net loss of jobs. Somebody still has to fly it, sort it, then fly it again. It will be different "somebodies," that's all.

Come on Dan, is UPS going to hire 6k-7k somebodies to do the job? It is a net loss no matter how you cut it.

 

[abxdx]

I totally agree! Why don't you guys picket outside Dasburg's House. There is no reason he could not be out there trying to sell those DC8's on ACMI contracts. ATI is doing it.. It might not be a long term solution, but quit whining about UPS screwing up your LIFE. Blame the guy who has done nothing for you guys from day one! I would be a little mad if a guy came in and made a mountain of cash, then five years later said, "oh well they do not want us any more, your all screwed. We are shutting down as soon as they are done with us." He got his money.
Has he done anything to help the ASTAR employees. Has he met with politicians. Nope just sits in his mansion counting money.............

All you guys are doing, is alienating yourselves from the rest of the industry by blaming some comany that was offered a billion dollars for thier services. If you owned an airline and DHL came to you, don't dare tell me you would turn them down on principle.....

You Astar guys have blamed DHL and UPS for your misfortune and picketed both companies. A few questions:

1. Why haven't you picketed YOUR employer (Astar) for becoming wholly reliant on a single contract for its viability?

2. Since 2003, when Astar became a separate contractor entity with a single contract for its survival, didn't any of you think to yourselves, "Gee self, I have an awful lot of eggs in one basket and if that basket fails I'll be in a world of hurt!"


I understand most of you did not SEEK out this contractor situation you found yourselves "evolved" into. Nevertheless, that's been your status for at least 5 years... COMPLETELY dependent on a single contract for your company's survival. Didn't this raise any warning flags? What made you feel secure enough to stay at Astar these past 5 years? Was it the aging, fuel-inefficient fleet of 30-40 year-old aircraft you were operating with no plan for replacement? Perhaps it was the dwindling volume, erosion of market share and ever increasing losses DHL was ringing up each of the past 5 years that gave you the warm fuzzy that life would continue uninterrupted?

IMO, you blame DHL and UPS... when you ought to be "blaming" Astar and to a lesser degree the mirror for the situation you're in.


BBB

(Used to be sympathetic till you picketed UPS.)

 

[hvydriver]

I totally agree! Why don't you guys picket outside Dasburg's House. There is no reason he could not be out there trying to sell those DC8's on ACMI contracts. ATI is doing it.. It might not be a long term solution, but quit whining about UPS screwing up your LIFE. Blame the guy who has done nothing for you guys from day one! I would be a little mad if a guy came in and made a mountain of cash, then five years later said, "oh well they do not want us any more, your all screwed. We are shutting down as soon as they are done with us." He got his money.
Has he done anything to help the ASTAR employees. Has he met with politicians. Nope just sits in his mansion counting money.............

All you guys are doing, is alienating yourselves from the rest of the industry by blaming some comany that was offered a billion dollars for thier services. If you owned an airline and DHL came to you, don't dare tell me you would turn them down on principle.....

Could you possibly suck up any harder? An anti-trust issue requires two to tango. You can't just go after DHL without including UPS. It's not just the pilots from ABX/Astar. It's the entire ILN hub facility. If you're willing to sit around and let the others do the heavy lifting, that's fine. We're just not going to sit back and do nothing while 10k jobs disappear. I wouldn't be holding your breath about ABX's chances post DHL either. Graber has said there will be approx. 17 B767s left with associated crews. How many dispatchers do you suppose that will take to run dx? (not trying to flame here other ABX guys, I just can't believe this guy is serious about doing nothing while jobs evaporate.)

 

[abxdx]

I did not say do nothing! I said why don't you picket your own management for doing nothing. Please explain to me what Dasburg is doing to help fight for your job. You know, I am not sure what will happen when DHL is gone, but I am not going to whine about other companies only doing what is best for thier employees. It is over! Even if we win the antitrust suit, what will be left? 1% of the market. Channel your energies into persuading your boss to find alternatives to keep his employees working...