Asa/xjt<---------

[Nevets]

Man I can't stand stupidity. Where in the hell did you get replacing 3 200s with 700/900 equals one less 200 needed? I clearly stated on a one for one basis. If XJT has 200 E145s outsourced by CAL that is 200 planes worth of flying that is gone and not coming back. Let management use whatever size(51-76) regional aircraft they want on those 200 planes and let mainline pilots take a pay increase for increasing regional revenue. Before you know it profits will be up and the widebody orders will start rolling in.

But if you guys want to keep being short sighted and fighting over mainline pilots flying to College Station and not focusing on increasing routes to Dubai, Shanghai and other places where the yield is high enough to pay the pilot very well, so be it.
Is Lee Monk truly the only one around here that has some sense?

Why can't you have all this branded flying done by pilots on the mainline seniority list with current work rules and compensation that exist at the regionals?

 

[Medeco]

Back to the OP please! Argue about scope and such somewhere else. Thanks!

ASA will HIRE 1000, yes 1,000 pilots by the end of 2012.

Not that far fetched.

 

[johnpeace]

There are a few factors at play here:
- commercial pilot candidates/certificate issuance at record lows
- large scale attrition from the tops of the largest airline's seniority lists
- higher experience requirements for new regional airline pilots
- tighter rest rules requiring higher staffing levels at the airlines

These are probably going to work together to change the landscape for regional airlines and their pilots. They are soon going to be unable to hire enough to keep up with attrition, there simply aren't enough candidates of ANY experience level. A qualified pilot is going to soon be the most valuable commodity a regional airline retains.

It will be interesting to see where it all winds up, but my intuition is telling me that these factors are going to produce a reality that is better for all of us.

 

[777forever]

Why can't you have all this branded flying done by pilots on the mainline seniority list with current work rules and compensation that exist at the regionals?

Because management would first have to allow all the regional contracts to expire(at least 10 years). Massive amount of hiring for pilots, flight attendants, mechanics etc etc would then have to take place sometime within that time period. Mainline would have to purchase 100s of RJs. This would all come to a tremendous cost to management. If management even considered this, pilots would lose a tremendous amount of leverage. They'd be looking at a pay freeze(if not pay cut) for at least 10 years to make up the tremendous cost. All this cost will have absolutely no benefit to anyone but the pilots.

Return of all scope to mainline is one of management's "religious issues", meaning they will let the pilot strike to their heart's content and not budge until they come to the table and put a realistic proposal on the table.

 

[CX880]

You want analytical ok. For every (3) 200 you replace with 700/900s you really do away with the need for one more 200. That’s around 6 pilot jobs that could have been created but instead those people will be on the streets.
Isn’t it ironic that your screen name is 777forever when everything that you propose is for stagnation. It’s also ironic how many people like you change your opinion once they finally do get a job at the majors. Do you really think that you will say, “they are just thinking analytically”, if you were junior at the majors and they gave us scope for the C-Series. Then you, just like many thousand before would be on the street begging for your CRJ200 FO spot back.
I propose that 777forever should have to change his name to CRJ200FOforever. Lets put it to a vote… All in favor say aye.

aye. It's obvious he has no idea what he's talking about. It's true that it's a lost cause because the contracts are set in stone but it's the principle that matters. More 777s and less CRJ7s and 9s I say. Our job is not to make management prosperous, our job is to fly a plane and get paid for it righteously.

 

[JumpersAway]

Why can't you have all this branded flying done by pilots on the mainline seniority list with current work rules and compensation that exist at the regionals?

Because no matter how you package it up, our bretheren at the major airlines will ALWAYS look down upon the regional pilots as underqualified. They want to retain the interview process to "weed out the bad apples". This will NEVER happen. However, they would gladly arrange a flow down-errrr.......I mean flow agreement with you. How many airlines have tried this and failed. I think ExpressJet has unique experience with this. Correct?

Also, who is going to burn negotiating capital on this? The pilots at the majors don't want to bargain for YOUR job- they simply don't care.

Right now, the faulted logic is that if the regionals negotiate higher pay, the aircraft (70) seaters will flow back to mainline. This scenario couldn't be farther from the truth and reality. As regionals up the pay and the aircraft become more expensive to opperate at the regional level, other regionals are created to fill in the regional feed at a lower operating cost. Look at Compass, GoJet, and Mid Atlantic. These are perfect examples of airlines that were created to "fit the need for cheeper feed".

As much as people disagree and can't stand JoeMerchant, he his right in saying "Brand Scope" is the only true way to halt the "whipsaw".

 

[nimtz]

Man I can't stand stupidity. Where in the hell did you get replacing 3 200s with 700/900 equals one less 200 needed? I clearly stated on a one for one basis. If XJT has 200 E145s outsourced by CAL that is 200 planes worth of flying that is gone and not coming back. Let management use whatever size(51-76) regional aircraft they want on those 200 planes and let mainline pilots take a pay increase for increasing regional revenue. Before you know it profits will be up and the widebody orders will start rolling in.

But if you guys want to keep being short sighted and fighting over mainline pilots flying to College Station and not focusing on increasing routes to Dubai, Shanghai and other places where the yield is high enough to pay the pilot very well, so be it.
Is Lee Monk truly the only one around here that has some sense?

Ask the UAL guys how well it worked allowing RJ's in based on management's promise of more 777's back in the late 90's.

 

[777forever]

Ask the UAL guys how well it worked allowing RJ's in based on management's promise of more 777's back in the late 90's.

1st off, UAL has more 777s and 747s than any other Legacy.2nd, United got an absolutely wonderful pilot contract shortly after that. Than a little thing called 9-11 happened iI would think(sarcasm) hurt United's ability to order widebody aircraft.

 

[Medeco]

You guys dont read very well...

 

[nimtz]

1st off, UAL has more 777s and 747s than any other Legacy.2nd, United got an absolutely wonderful pilot contract shortly after that. Than a little thing called 9-11 happened iI would think(sarcasm) hurt United's ability to order widebody aircraft.

So that makes your argument right? I'm terribly sorry that the vast majority of line pilots continue to find your 'Lee Moak Theory' to be completely bunk. If management wants to fly longhauls they will buy the airplanes. Bending over on scope will not quicken that process...

 

[777forever]

So that makes your argument right? I'm terribly sorry that the vast majority of line pilots continue to find your 'Lee Moak Theory' to be completely bunk. If management wants to fly longhauls they will buy the airplanes. Bending over on scope will not quicken that process...

Ok throw my arguement out the window. Let's get out of lala land utopia where we are debating unrealistic stuff like mainline taking all the flying. Fact is:

THE 700/900, E170, AND E175 WILL NEVER GO TO MAINLINE. THIS IS A RELIGIOUS ISSUE. MANAGEMENT WILL LET YOU STRIKE TO YOUR HEARTS CONTENT AND NOT BUDGE!

IF YOU STILL WON'T ACCEPT REALITY WHEN THE ARBITRAITOR LAUGHS AT THE PILOTS AND RULES IN FAVOR OF UAL/CAL THAT SHOULD BE A WAKE-UP CALL!

ALL OF YOUR LEGACY COMPETITORS HAVE A HIGHER SEAT SCOPE CLAUSE. YOUR COMPETITORS IN EUROPE HAVE E190s AND F100s OUTSOURCED. THE FIGHT TO RECLAIM LOST SCOPE IS FRUITLESS.

REALISTIC PROPOSAL:
UP THE SEAT SCOPE TO 76 BUT FREEZE CURRENT NUMBER OF REGIONAL AIRCRAFT. ALLOW A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF EXTRA RJ TO BE ADDED PER EACH NEW WIDEBODY THAT IS DELIVERED.
EXTRA PAY INCREASE FOR ADDITIONAL REVENUE FROM UPPING SCOPE CLAUSE.

 

[DYLIN]

REALISTIC PROPOSAL:
UP THE SEAT SCOPE TO 76 BUT FREEZE CURRENT NUMBER OF REGIONAL AIRCRAFT. ALLOW A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF EXTRA RJ TO BE ADDED PER EACH NEW WIDEBODY THAT IS DELIVERED.
EXTRA PAY INCREASE FOR ADDITIONAL REVENUE FROM UPPING SCOPE CLAUSE.

If even you think that a reversal of scope would not happen, then why on earth would you propose to loosen scope even more?

That's what you've written here -- in obnoxious capital letters, no less. Like you're yelling at everyone on here, despite your overall inexperience in this industry.

 

[Jetjockey]

Ok throw my arguement out the window. Let's get out of lala land utopia where we are debating unrealistic stuff like mainline taking all the flying. Fact is:

THE 700/900, E170, AND E175 WILL NEVER GO TO MAINLINE. THIS IS A RELIGIOUS ISSUE. MANAGEMENT WILL LET YOU STRIKE TO YOUR HEARTS CONTENT AND NOT BUDGE!

IF YOU STILL WON'T ACCEPT REALITY WHEN THE ARBITRAITOR LAUGHS AT THE PILOTS AND RULES IN FAVOR OF UAL/CAL THAT SHOULD BE A WAKE-UP CALL!

ALL OF YOUR LEGACY COMPETITORS HAVE A HIGHER SEAT SCOPE CLAUSE. YOUR COMPETITORS IN EUROPE HAVE E190s AND F100s OUTSOURCED. THE FIGHT TO RECLAIM LOST SCOPE IS FRUITLESS.

REALISTIC PROPOSAL:
UP THE SEAT SCOPE TO 76 BUT FREEZE CURRENT NUMBER OF REGIONAL AIRCRAFT. ALLOW A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF EXTRA RJ TO BE ADDED PER EACH NEW WIDEBODY THAT IS DELIVERED.
EXTRA PAY INCREASE FOR ADDITIONAL REVENUE FROM UPPING SCOPE CLAUSE.

CRJFOFOREVER is a more appropriate screen name for you. Maybe it's not too late to change it. It's amazing you know so much after so little time in the industry.

 

[COOPERVANE]

CRJFOFOREVER is a more appropriate screen name for you. Maybe it's not too late to change it. It's amazing you know so much after so little time in the industry.

He's got everything figured out.


Weird how nobody else sees his brilliance.............but him.

 

[777forever]

If even you think that a reversal of scope would not happen, then why on earth would you propose to loosen scope even more?

That's what you've written here -- in obnoxious capital letters, no less. Like you're yelling at everyone on here, despite your overall inexperience in this industry.

Loosening scope? I'm not suggesting adding the cseries or any other large RJ. I'm suggesting that UAL/CAL pilots will have to allow management to match their competitor's regional aircraft sizes. What I'm proposing includes only swaps of smaller 50 seaters for larger ones. There is no net gain of aircraft.

There's no need for huge about of experience here. It's call understanding contract negotiations, being able to analyze, and reason. A little common sense helps too. Talk to any one with contract neg experience and ask there opinion. Give Lee Mook a ring or toss him an email. Or better yet, go take a business class for too.

If you folks think UAL/CAL will keep CAL scope or reduce it, AND secure a decent pay raise, I would love some of that Ganja you smoking

 

[nimtz]

Loosening scope? I'm not suggesting adding the cseries or any other large RJ. I'm suggesting that UAL/CAL pilots will have to allow management to match their competitor's regional aircraft sizes. What I'm proposing includes only swaps of smaller 50 seaters for larger ones. There is no net gain of aircraft.

There's no need for huge about of experience here. It's call understanding contract negotiations, being able to analyze, and reason. A little common sense helps too. Talk to any one with contract neg experience and ask there opinion. Give Lee Mook a ring or toss him an email. Or better yet, go take a business class for too.

If you folks think UAL/CAL will keep CAL scope or reduce it, AND secure a decent pay raise, I would love some of that Ganja you smoking

You lecture me like a student about negotiation yet you lay out the exact case that you would cave for?!? Thanks for the advise neophyte, but just like Obama once said; "I got this"...

 

[COOPERVANE]

You lecture me like a student about negotiation yet you lay out the exact case that you would cave for?!? Thanks for the advise neophyte, but just like Obama once said; "I got this"...

Yeah man.....take a class!!! You shoulda gone to riddle....you'd know how this airline stuff works.

 

[rumorhasit]

No smokin' at all... I heard it from an XJT guy at Hoot County late one night...

Growths.... now that's something we got!!!!

Sooo what yor saying is your boyfriend is a grower not a shower!!!!

 

[Plainsman]

Well its nice to know scheduling still sucks dunkey dung!

 

[Abernathy]

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