ASA training dept. rumor

[79%N1]

Just the g.l./o.y.s. comment.
The other stuff was just cynicism dude.
No but really, if your a lifer here you're screwed.
Yes, I am concerned about my family and if you're not, you're a fool.
You know, just like the lifers at asa who voted for that sh!t of being notified of a re-assignment via voice mail, pbs etc....
I stand by all of my negative asa, inc. posts
So don't agree with me either, LIFER!

Who the Fu(k said I'm a lifer? I work here now though, and its the only job I have. My app is in at about the only places I want to work, and they ain't called yet. In fact, not many calls going out lately or even in the last ten years. So, go assume elsewhere.....

 

[Nevets]

Nevets, you can draw all the stupid pictures you want, but some of us don't want to treat our company like the car dealership we are trying to get a great deal with...As has been said before me, I don't want to hurt my company.

The difference between you and I is that I plan on staying here and I like the fact that my company has a lot of money in the bank. That gives us options that other companies don't have. I'm not trying to "stick it to the man" as are you...

Another difference between us and you is that many of us are very greatful that Skywest bought us. Delta owned us and Comair....guess which one is better off?

Don't take this the wrong way...but you can take your bad attitude and stick it where the sun don't shine....with all due respect that is...;>}

Why is it some of you people just don't get it?! I'm not taking about rape here. I'm talking about professional negotiations. You simply don't go into negotiations with your attitude. It's a give and take depending on leverage and the health of the company. Skywest Inc has proven itself not to be stupid enough to agree to a contract which will harm them. Let them do their job and our negotiators will do theirs to get us the best deal possible. How much simple must I say it for you to understand those basic concepts?

Anyways, Skywest is better off for having bought XJT.

 

[www.]

Why is it some of you people just don't get it?! I'm not taking about rape here. I'm talking about professional negotiations. You simply don't go into negotiations with your attitude. It's a give and take depending on leverage and the health of the company. Skywest Inc has proven itself not to be stupid enough to agree to a contract which will harm them. Let them do their job and our negotiators will do theirs to get us the best deal possible. How much simple must I say it for you to understand those basic concepts?

Anyways, Skywest is better off for having bought XJT.

How long have you been doing negotiations for?

 

[Medeco]

Why is it some of you people just don't get it?! I'm not taking about rape here. I'm talking about professional negotiations. You simply don't go into negotiations with your attitude. It's a give and take depending on leverage and the health of the company. Skywest Inc has proven itself not to be stupid enough to agree to a contract which will harm them. Let them do their job and our negotiators will do theirs to get us the best deal possible. How much simple must I say it for you to understand those basic concepts?

Anyways, Skywest is better off for having bought XJT.

Well, thats not entirely correct.

My best example, Vacation low on ASA PBS is burning the budget and the company cant get rid of it fast enough. They are regretting this one big.

 

[79%N1]

So just think how much they'll love the XJT vacation rules and their line improvement where they all trade their 13 day off lines for 20 days off with full weekends and late duty ins! That's gonna go over real well!

 

[Nevets]

Well, thats not entirely correct.

My best example, Vacation low on ASA PBS is burning the budget and the company cant get rid of it fast enough. They are regretting this one big.

Neither vacation rules are going to bankrupt this company. The point is that they will not agree to anything that they dont want to agree to. They learn just as we do.

So just think how much they'll love the XJT vacation rules and their line improvement where they all trade their 13 day off lines for 20 days off with full weekends and late duty ins! That's gonna go over real well!

The flying gets covered by the same amount of pilots.

 

[Meiguy]

Well, thats not entirely correct.

My best example, Vacation low on ASA PBS is burning the budget and the company cant get rid of it fast enough. They are regretting this one big.

Thats what everyone keeps saying but didn't guys get the same amount of days off and credit with trip dropping via line bidding? Seems like when the company is in an overstaffed situation it wouldn't really matter to them.

 

[centralpilot]

Thats what everyone keeps saying but didn't guys get the same amount of days off and credit with trip dropping via line bidding? Seems like when the company is in an overstaffed situation it wouldn't really matter to them.

I'm getting significantly more time off in a vacation month and still get full MMG. That is a major improvement over contract 2007, which crippled touching trip drops with MMG proration. I'm sure that costs more money.

Even when overstaffed the company would prefer vacation pilots to fly more to lower everyone else's line value, thus reducing total payroll.

Too bad. For all the mistakes pilots have made in contract language, it is nice to have one company mistake in our favor.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Too bad. For all the mistakes pilots have made in contract language, it is nice to have one company mistake in our favor.

My sentiments exactly. When they exploit a loophole we failed to see they say "sorry, we are just complying with the CBA YOU all signed" We have NO leverage to close the loophole till the next contract so we are screwed.

Now that THEY failed to see the vacation low loophole they are crying about closing it ASAP.

TOO BAD!!!

 

[Abernathy]

My sentiments exactly. When they exploit a loophole we failed to see they say "sorry, we are just complying with the CBA YOU all signed" We have NO leverage to close the loophole till the next contract so we are screwed.

Now that THEY failed to see the vacation low loophole they are crying about closing it ASAP.

TOO BAD!!!

We'll give them vacation low back if they cap 4 days at 25% MAX and agree to at least 60% 3-on 4-off scheds!!

 

[enuffalready]

My sentiments exactly. When they exploit a loophole we failed to see they say "sorry, we are just complying with the CBA YOU all signed" We have NO leverage to close the loophole till the next contract so we are screwed.

Now that THEY failed to see the vacation low loophole they are crying about closing it ASAP.

TOO BAD!!!

agree.... there have been countless loopholes in the 11+ years that I have been here that they told us exactly that.... " sorry, we are complying and under no obligation to change it"

 

[wms]

Doesn't matter. We'll be line bidding with the jcba. PS with PBS vaca you work two trips, same as when we did with line bidding. The company wanted to eliminate extending vaca and missed this point in the contract.

 

[centralpilot]

PS with PBS vaca you work two trips, same as when we did with line bidding. The company wanted to eliminate extending vaca and missed this point in the contract.

Not necessarily. I usually had to work 3 trips under line bidding because:

A. Lines that had other off days I wanted didn't conflict with vacation correctly. (e.g. weekday trips)

B. Company built nearly every line with 5 trips (including carry over trips)

C. The lines that didn't have 5 trips had integration days, which invariably became another trip.


My vacation months have been much better with PBS. More days off and more off in a row. Fact.

 

[goahead]

We'll give them vacation low back if they cap 4 days at 25% MAX and agree to at least 60% 3-on 4-off scheds!!

Agree

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why is it some of you people just don't get it?! I'm not taking about rape here. I'm talking about professional negotiations.

I was on ASA's negotiating committee for contract '98. I attended the George Meany negotiating training. What experience do you have besides buying cars and such?

You simply don't go into negotiations with your attitude. It's a give and take depending on leverage and the health of the company. Skywest Inc has proven itself not to be stupid enough to agree to a contract which will harm them. Let them do their job and our negotiators will do theirs to get us the best deal possible. How much simple must I say it for you to understand those basic concepts?

Since I helped negotiate contract '98, the net profit margin of ASA has gone from around 15% to near 0. Since then, the economics of the 50 seater have gone from good to nobody can get rid of them fast enough. I don't need a lecture from you. You don't even want ASA/XJT to really survive. You think if we go away, mainline will take over all this flying and you will magically become a "real pilot"....I hate to break it to you, but if we go away, it won't be mainline that takes over our flying..

 

[JoeMerchant]

Thats what everyone keeps saying but didn't guys get the same amount of days off and credit with trip dropping via line bidding? Seems like when the company is in an overstaffed situation it wouldn't really matter to them.

We gave up getting paid for trip dropping in our last contract...We could do it, but we lost the pay. Now I get even more vacation and get paid too...It was an improvement over our last contract.

 

[ace6453]

Well, thats not entirely correct.

My best example, Vacation low on ASA PBS is burning the budget and the company cant get rid of it fast enough. They are regretting this one big.

Vacation low is just killing the budget and profits, it has nothing to do with inept middle management, stupid scheduling/planning practices or 3 name changes in 3 years.

 

[Plainsman]

I sure wish they would get rid of SH.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Killing the budgets and profits because of a some extra trips in open time? Nice try.

How 'bout the 350 cancelled flights over the weekend we won't get paid for, not to mention the inept middle management of crew scheduling and planning that results in inefficient trips, cancelled flights, understaffing...

Oh, here's one- How about the condition of the airplanes? The cockpit is covered in dirt, dust and crud...critical switches like rudder trim breaking because of it (the spilled drinks were like three instances), pencil whipping write ups over and over and over until the airplane finally goes AOG in the middle of nowhere or has to divert, etc, etc...

All ASA management choices. Sorry. Try again.

 

[sunlitpath]

When the dust finally settles, I think many of you will find the Skywest/ASA management team to be very acceptable. All management teams encounter operational and organizational challenges. When evaluated honestly and objectively , using profitability and viabilty as metrics, their performance is quite good in this difficult environment. Attempting to beat them down with ill placed, tired rhetoric will not achieve much of anything. By all means we must negotiate for fair QOL and compensation, but don't expect them to give away the farm; particularly when the farm isn't producing much in the current drought conditions. I encourage anyone who has questions about operational issues to simply ask SH or BH for clarification. They have answered every question I have ever asked.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

When the dust finally settles, I think many of you will find the Skywest/ASA management team to be very acceptable. All management teams encounter operational and organizational challenges. When evaluated honestly and objectively , using profitability and viabilty as metrics, their performance is quite good in this difficult environment. Attempting to beat them down with ill placed, tired rhetoric will not achieve much of anything. By all means we must negotiate for fair QOL and compensation, but don't expect them to give away the farm; particularly when the farm isn't producing much in the current drought conditions. I encourage anyone who has questions about operational issues to simply ask SH or BH for clarification. They have answered every question I have ever asked.

Wow. Someone gets it...

 

[Thebadcat1313]

When the dust finally settles, I think many of you will find the Skywest/ASA management team to be very acceptable. All management teams encounter operational and organizational challenges. When evaluated honestly and objectively , using profitability and viabilty as metrics, their performance is quite good in this difficult environment. Attempting to beat them down with ill placed, tired rhetoric will not achieve much of anything. By all means we must negotiate for fair QOL and compensation, but don't expect them to give away the farm; particularly when the farm isn't producing much in the current drought conditions. I encourage anyone who has questions about operational issues to simply ask SH or BH for clarification. They have answered every question I have ever asked.

Nice to see an adult comment vs. all the kids.

 

[ratherbeflyen]

1. The XJT side doesn't want the ASA PBS system. ASA does. That is causing a lot of the conflict.

2. The XJT side seems to really want to fight just for the sake of fighting. The XJT side doesn't want to acknowledge the fact that we do have to remain competitive. The ASA side isn't advocating paycuts, but is setting it's sites a little lower.

3. The instructor section list integration didn't go well between the two sides.

I checked with my in the know crowd about what happened last week. I can't comment about this week. It sounds like most of it is being blow out of proportion on here.

1. I'll concede that the vast majority will NOT take the ASA pbs as it stands, including myself even though it would get me off reserve. The only way I'd agree to pbs is if the minimum days per month went up and vacation touch/drop still applied.

2. I haven't heard anything on this subject and can't comment either way.

3. As far as I'm concerned the only way any pilot should be able to go hold a long term off line position is to resign their seniority number. Do you want to be a pilot or do you want to be an accountant? Go pick ONE. I also think that every flight instructor should have to fly a minimum of 10-20 hours per month. I really don't know how your supposed to be an expert instructor on an airplane that you turned 60 before the thing was invented. Having said that, I am absolutely positive that there are instructors that are only instructors because of their discontent for the line and will fight anyone and everyone to keep the status quo and their current pay.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I checked with my in the know crowd about what happened last week. I can't comment about this week. It sounds like most of it is being blow out of proportion on here.

1. I'll concede that the vast majority will NOT take the ASA pbs as it stands, including myself even though it would get me off reserve. The only way I'd agree to pbs is if the minimum days per month went up and vacation touch/drop still applied.

2. I haven't heard anything on this subject and can't comment either way.

3. As far as I'm concerned the only way any pilot should be able to go hold a long term off line position is to resign their seniority number. Do you want to be a pilot or do you want to be an accountant? Go pick ONE. I also think that every flight instructor should have to fly a minimum of 10-20 hours per month. I really don't know how your supposed to be an expert instructor on an airplane that you turned 60 before the thing was invented. Having said that, I am absolutely positive that there are instructors that are only instructors because of their discontent for the line and will fight anyone and everyone to keep the status quo and their current pay.

Do you have guys working as accountants and keeping seniority? That's a little odd. Within the company, or external?

I think our instructors have a month of line flying per year at ASA.

 

[Data]

When the dust finally settles, I think many of you will find the Skywest/ASA management team to be very acceptable. All management teams encounter operational and organizational challenges. When evaluated honestly and objectively , using profitability and viabilty as metrics, their performance is quite good in this difficult environment. Attempting to beat them down with ill placed, tired rhetoric will not achieve much of anything. By all means we must negotiate for fair QOL and compensation, but don't expect them to give away the farm; particularly when the farm isn't producing much in the current drought conditions. I encourage anyone who has questions about operational issues to simply ask SH or BH for clarification. They have answered every question I have ever asked.

Hey, this is FI, logical, well written posts do not belong here. Let's get back to mindless dolts bemoaning how evil Scott and Charlie are, those guys are much more entertaining!

 

[ratherbeflyen]

Do you have guys working as accountants and keeping seniority? That's a little odd. Within the company, or external?

I think our instructors have a month of line flying per year at ASA.

Accountants may have been a little facetious, but there are pilots in company management positions holding a seniority number. Doesn't the CEO have a line pilot number?

 

[CFI2766]

When the dust finally settles, I think many of you will find the Skywest/ASA management team to be very acceptable. All management teams encounter operational and organizational challenges. When evaluated honestly and objectively , using profitability and viabilty as metrics, their performance is quite good in this difficult environment. Attempting to beat them down with ill placed, tired rhetoric will not achieve much of anything. By all means we must negotiate for fair QOL and compensation, but don't expect them to give away the farm; particularly when the farm isn't producing much in the current drought conditions. I encourage anyone who has questions about operational issues to simply ask SH or BH for clarification. They have answered every question I have ever asked.

Two points:

1. Most sane people agree with this statement. However, most sane people also disagree strongly that the only 'metrics' that matter are profitability and viability.

By this logic, why not enact an immediate reduction in benefits in the name of 'profitability' and 'viability'? Why not enact an immediate increase in productivity by decreasing the amount of time employees are given for a vacation? This too would enhance 'profitability' and 'viability', right? Why not select the bid runs every month that produce the best numbers on the management summary, regardless of the quality of life for the pilots that the resultant schedules would produce? This too would enhance 'profitability'...


2. From one ASA pilot's viewpoint, the current management team is clearly head and shoulders above anything that has previously existed in the past at ASA, especially when evaluated in a 'rate-reset' environment. However, we've now encountered two consecutive summers where pilot staffing was grossly inadequate. There are numerous stories of aircraft that are simply not receiving the maintenance attention that they require. Though there is an ostensibly friendly slant to the internal communications (with the blatant exception of '...It doesn't matter how we got here..'), we've received far too many 'Thank You For All That You Do' statements and far too few resources to accomplish the mission of reliably moving people and cargo in a scheduled airline environment.

The lesson that is seemingly not being learned here is that there needs to be a genuine focus on what needs to happen out on the flight line to get the job done. The realities of the last two years indicate that the current management team is all too content to view things through the distantly-removed prism of repeated name changes, superfluous Acepaloozas, and uniform changes that are a 'top priority.'

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Two points:
Though there is an ostensibly friendly slant to the internal communications (with the blatant exception of '...It doesn't matter how we got here..'),

Since I know that you know Scott personally, I'm going to throw the BS flag on this one. While it was certainly a not thought through statement, it was not blatantly unfriendly. I get that people like to harp on that phrase, and it's a good populist motivating sound bite, but don't go inflaming it saying it was unfriendly. It was just a quick, desperate sentence intending to accept responsibility, and motivate people to look past the blame to cover the flying for the weekend. (Admittedly, the opposite result happened...)

There's enough ammunition out there that you don't have to go misrepresenting things.

 

[CFI2766]

Since I know that you know Scott personally, I'm going to throw the BS flag on this one. While it was certainly a not thought through statement, it was not blatantly unfriendly. I get that people like to harp on that phrase, and it's a good populist motivating sound bite, but don't go inflaming it saying it was unfriendly. It was just a quick, desperate sentence intending to accept responsibility, and motivate people to look past the blame to cover the flying for the weekend. (Admittedly, the opposite result happened...)

There's enough ammunition out there that you don't have to go misrepresenting things.

Disappointing...I know Scott about as personally as you do: He's my boss's boss. Let's not 'misrepresent' that he and I share a special bond, or, alternatively, that I do not respect him for the work he does at our airline. Scott has his role to play at ASA; he is very good at what he does.

No inflamation necessary: It was a terrible way for a supervisor to address an employee group. It was counter-productive and likely served to decrease the productivity of the pilot group. He is aware of my, and many other pilots', feelings on this matter.

It's telling that this is the point that you chose to address. Nothing more substantive in my post that you care to respond to?

 

[Freebrd]

And notice that SH hasn't been sending out too many memos lately, instead CT has. Me thinks SH got his pee pee whacked for that negative memo. But hey it doesn't matter how WE got here......