Asa Strike Vote!

["GO AROUND"]

I don't mind being in a slim minority. Hell, I would rather be in the correct minority than the ignorant majority. I'm not in this for the wings, and I'm certainly not in it for chicks. I'm in this because no other career would satisfy me, and that's after being in the corporate world for quite a while.

I don't have rose colored glasses here. I just think that a strike is the wrong option. I'm not saying that being efficient and good to our passengers alone would make QOL better, but it would show the management that we can make the company better. From that strong standpoint we could negotiate our position more effectively.

A strike will permanently damage the company, and make this fight personal. Nothing will be gained by either side, and most of us will be out of a job. How could that be a good thing? What kind of sane pilot could EVER support such a drastic and potentially job-ending action?

Besides, the decision to strike is not ours. Thankfully that responsibility rests with the negotiators at the national level.

Finally, I certainly am not embarassing myself here. The people who should be embarassed are the ones showing their lack of business sense and education.

A

(The reason for the recent sign-up is that I've been reading this site in disgust for so long, that I just couldn't keep silent any longer.)

You're missing the point. If we had a managment that thought like you then your points would work out. But we have a direct opposite managment mentality. If we were the best airline out there the companies thinking would be "Why should we negotiate when things are going great and the pilots are doing it for their current contract." Then lets reinterperate the existing contract into worse QOL and involuntary concessions by stringing them along for 3 years. We don't work in Utopia, we work for a company that doesn't say it but absolutely does not respect the job we do as pilots.

Sure they pay it a lot of lip service, but that improves nothing, including morale.

You think that when things get better they would come to us and offer us the improvements that we want? How long would that be? Never.

Look at the history of the airlines, they are always saying the times are bad, we're not making money etc.... Yet the exec's always seem to get their raises and bonuses.

Oh, but they have to do that to retain the quality people, Right? Only they don't think of us as quality people. Cause if we are here more than 5 yrs we should have found a better job(a quote from many of our exec's). Because they have to pay us too much.

For the last three years we have been doing our job's , and the jobs of many others(departure coordinators, fuelers, catering, cleaning, rampers). Thinking the way you say we should we have been. Where has that gotten us? Lied to, cheated, disrespected. Shall I continue?

So, where is your answer to all this, if a stike vote and then possibly a strike is wrong? How do you propose we get them to negotiate any improvements to our contract?

For the last 3 years our pilot group has been doing our jobs

 

[ASA_Aviator]

You're missing the point. If we had a managment that thought like you then your points would work out. But we have a direct opposite managment mentality. If we were the best airline out there the companies thinking would be "Why should we negotiate when things are going great and the pilots are doing it for their current contract." Then lets reinterperate the existing contract into worse QOL and involuntary concessions by stringing them along for 3 years. We don't work in Utopia, we work for a company that doesn't say it but absolutely does not respect the job we do as pilots.

I agree management sure isn't doing their part here. It takes both sides making a good-faith effort. I would argue against a lock-out just as forcefully as I argue against a strike.

You think that when things get better they would come to us and offer us the improvements that we want? How long would that be? Never.

I said no such thing. We certainly have to bring our position to the table, but from a position of strength, not weakness. My position is that if we do things to weaken the company, we only weaken our position further.

Look at the history of the airlines, they are always saying the times are bad, we're not making money etc.... Yet the exec's always seem to get their raises and bonuses.

Oh, but they have to do that to retain the quality people, Right? Only they don't think of us as quality people. Cause if we are here more than 5 yrs we should have found a better job(a quote from many of our exec's). Because they have to pay us too much.

The fact is that both management and the pilot group have to rethink the regional industry. This is no longer a stepping stone to a "real job," but instead it has become a career path in itself. I have every intention of retiring from ASA. In fact, that is why I don't want the strike. I don't want to weaken my chosen company. Those pilots who are just jumping to the next company don't care if ASA gets weakened by a work stoppage. They are moving on in 1000 hrs. I want ASA to be strong in 20 years.

For the last three years we have been doing our job's , and the jobs of many others(departure coordinators, fuelers, catering, cleaning, rampers). Thinking the way you say we should we have been. Where has that gotten us? Lied to, cheated, disrespected. Shall I continue?

So, where is your answer to all this, if a stike vote and then possibly a strike is wrong? How do you propose we get them to negotiate any improvements to our contract?

For the last 3 years our pilot group has been doing our jobs

I think our positions are not that far apart really. I would be willing, perhaps, to go along with a strike VOTE as a show of force, much like the democrats went along with a war vote against Iraq as a show of force. I just fear that such a vote would actually lead to a strike, just as the vote against Iraq lead to the war we are embroilled in now.

The one thing I do not support is disregarding procedures for the sole purpose of increasing costs to the company. (Two engine taxis, no-flex takeoffs, and the like.) If we don't keep efficient, we aren't going to gain new aircraft and new routes, and then I'll be back to that Wal-Mart greeting job...

A

 

[Texx]

I agree management sure isn't doing their part here. It takes both sides making a good-faith effort. I would argue against a lock-out just as forcefully as I argue against a strike.



I said no such thing. We certainly have to bring our position to the table, but from a position of strength, not weakness. My position is that if we do things to weaken the company, we only weaken our position further.



The fact is that both management and the pilot group have to rethink the regional industry. This is no longer a stepping stone to a "real job," but instead it has become a career path in itself. I have every intention of retiring from ASA. In fact, that is why I don't want the strike. I don't want to weaken my chosen company. Those pilots who are just jumping to the next company don't care if ASA gets weakened by a work stoppage. They are moving on in 1000 hrs. I want ASA to be strong in 20 years.




I think our positions are not that far apart really. I would be willing, perhaps, to go along with a strike VOTE as a show of force, much like the democrats went along with a war vote against Iraq as a show of force. I just fear that such a vote would actually lead to a strike, just as the vote against Iraq lead to the war we are embroilled in now.

The one thing I do not support is disregarding procedures for the sole purpose of increasing costs to the company. (Two engine taxis, no-flex takeoffs, and the like.) If we don't keep efficient, we aren't going to gain new aircraft and new routes, and then I'll be back to that Wal-Mart greeting job...

A

When I read your post the only thing I see is " I " this and "I" that. A union and this pilot group is about "we". It's not just about you. We all pull in the same direction. The reason we were successful the last time is because "we" pulled togther. It wasn't the CPTs out for themselves nor the senior pilots out for themselves. During the 70 seat rate neg., we had the chance to change the percentage FOs were paid which meant that Cpts would have been paid more. But "we" said no. We kept the same percentage that the other equipment was using. That was the right thing to do.

I have a question for you. If you need a lav service or catering, do you call ops for this? Are you "disregarding procedures?"

 

[ASA_Aviator]

When I read your post the only thing I see is " I " this and "I" that. A union and this pilot group is about "we". It's not just about you. We all pull in the same direction. The reason we were successful the last time is because "we" pulled togther. It wasn't the CPTs out for themselves nor the senior pilots out for themselves. During the 70 seat rate neg., we had the chance to change the percentage FOs were paid which meant that Cpts would have been paid more. But "we" said no. We kept the same percentage that the other equipment was using. That was the right thing to do.

I have a question for you. If you need a lav service or catering, do you call ops for this? Are you "disregarding procedures?"

Point taken. My years in the business world have given me a decidedly anti-union stance. I don't know...maybe the third time my tires were slashed I just got a bad taste in my mouth. (Our comany used non-union contractors, so the unions used "pressure" to attempt to get us to use union shops. It didn't work.)

I agree that the pilots should work together toward a common goal. I just don't like thug tactics. In my opinion, doing twin engine taxis is the equivalent of slashing the tires of the company management. It is just an illegal thug tactic, and not something I want my name associated with. I wish we had an in-house collective bargaining group, and ALPA was not involved.

We should all want what is best for the company because the company's interests are our own interests. I believe that most of the pilots agree with this. I have faith that we will succeed in getting the QOL issues resolved. We are all pushing hard for this, and these issues are what can make or break this job. I certainly don't like getting called on my off days... And if I answer my phone, I certainly don't like that I can't tell the schedulers to shove it... And I think the schedulers should have a lot more accountability in their actions. They are darn near above the law up there.

Again, our positions aren't that far apart. I just have a strong reaction when people start talking like those union shops up where I'm from...

A

 

["GO AROUND"]

I agree management sure isn't doing their part here. It takes both sides making a good-faith effort. I would argue against a lock-out just as forcefully as I argue against a strike.

For the last 2 yrs the pilots have been the only ones doing their part and managment has shown ZERO. No effort, no good faith, just demands that it's their way or the highway.

I said no such thing. We certainly have to bring our position to the table, but from a position of strength, not weakness. My position is that if we do things to weaken the company, we only weaken our position further.

What position of strength do we have? D. Bedson said this to my face, "The only real power an organized work group has to use is a work stoppage. Other than that they have very little strength in negotiations."
How do you bring our position to the table with managment mentality like that?
Don't think that just because he's gone that that thinking is gone too.

The fact is that both management and the pilot group have to rethink the regional industry. This is no longer a stepping stone to a "real job," but instead it has become a career path in itself. I have every intention of retiring from ASA. In fact, that is why I don't want the strike. I don't want to weaken my chosen company. Those pilots who are just jumping to the next company don't care if ASA gets weakened by a work stoppage. They are moving on in 1000 hrs. I want ASA to be strong in 20 years.

No one wants to strike and if they say they do then they are too stupid to understand it.
Up until a month or so ago I thought I could make ASA a career too. But each day I get further away from that idea. How long is the cost analisys going to take? 6 mnths? a year? Managment doesn't even know. I've had my 1000 hrs and I'm still here, trying to make it better.

I think our positions are not that far apart really. I would be willing, perhaps, to go along with a strike VOTE as a show of force,

I agree.

The one thing I do not support is disregarding procedures for the sole purpose of increasing costs to the company. (Two engine taxis, no-flex takeoffs, and the like.) If we don't keep efficient, we aren't going to gain new aircraft and new routes, and then I'll be back to that Wal-Mart greeting job...

Nor do I. Wasting gas that I might want later is never gonna happen on my flights. As I have said before, I follow the manuals no more no less and let the company fall on it's face on it's own, and it does. I've stopped doing other peoples jobs and getting nothing for it. The company needs to realize how much extra we do to keep the airline running efficiently and profitable.
A[/quote]

This is all gonna be for not if DAL managment gets the pilot contract voided.

I hope the company is getting their act together with this cost analisys and soon.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

This is all gonna be for not if DAL managment gets the pilot contract voided.

I hope the company is getting their act together with this cost analisys and soon.

Good. Looks like we agree. I heard a rumor today that hiring has been frozen indefinitely because Delta hasn't given us an aircraft plan for next year. I hope that isn't the only thing frozen indefinitely...

A

 

[Tomct]

ASA Av: You are killing me man! Your thinking is EXACTLY what mgmnt wants to hear. All that work for NOTHING!! That should Pi$$ you off, but aparently you enjoy taking the ole sandpapered fist on a regular basis! I for one, am SICK of IT, along with a TON of fellow pilots! We have had it! It is time for the Company to "PONY UP" with what is ours!
Hey, you might even see people smiling around this mo fo if mgmnt did something to improve morale....oh wait...I work for Dumb Asa Air! BL better get a CLUE SOON, or this place is going to explode!!!!:uzi:

 

[Texx]

Point taken. My years in the business world have given me a decidedly anti-union stance. I don't know...maybe the third time my tires were slashed I just got a bad taste in my mouth. (Our comany used non-union contractors, so the unions used "pressure" to attempt to get us to use union shops. It didn't work.)

I agree that the pilots should work together toward a common goal. I just don't like thug tactics. In my opinion, doing twin engine taxis is the equivalent of slashing the tires of the company management. It is just an illegal thug tactic, and not something I want my name associated with. I wish we had an in-house collective bargaining group, and ALPA was not involved.

We should all want what is best for the company because the company's interests are our own interests. I believe that most of the pilots agree with this. I have faith that we will succeed in getting the QOL issues resolved. We are all pushing hard for this, and these issues are what can make or break this job. I certainly don't like getting called on my off days... And if I answer my phone, I certainly don't like that I can't tell the schedulers to shove it... And I think the schedulers should have a lot more accountability in their actions. They are darn near above the law up there.

Again, our positions aren't that far apart. I just have a strong reaction when people start talking like those union shops up where I'm from...

A

We should want what is best for the Company and the employees. The rampers, the GO and the other employees.

I have been here a long time. Just because there is a change in owners or leadership doesn't mean that you wipe the past away evey time. The old business needs to be addressed just like the new.

Life with management is a 2 way street. SB and CT were resentful when it came to the pilot group. Don't let anyone fool you on this one.

Some things to think about... BL wants us to sign off on the performance based pay. This works at some places but at ASA it wouldn't be fair to the pilots and the FAs and here's why. ATL ramp has and will be a problem for ASA. That is a fact and to have the frontline people, pilots and FAs, pay tied to a problem that even management admits they can't fix is not fair. WE are the frontline for the pax. WE are the ones that pick the pace up when we are behind and try to do the right thing for the pax.

I too come from a business background and if our management were to perform this way in that world they would of been out the door a long time ago. Large "Corporate Americana" works with unions. ASA needs to realize that.

 

[Phony Marconi]

It's clear to everyone that, if the union at ASA had any power at all, they would have gotten the contract resolved within about 2 years of its amendable date.

The 4+ years of absolutely NO progress is just a clear signal from management, and an affirmation by pilots, that the union is powerless.....dead.

The threat of a "work stoppage" does not exist. Any ASA pilot with other options has, or will soon, leave ASA. Those who remain are too desperate for a job and, unlike pilots during mainline strikes, have no savings to fall back on during a strike: their families would literally starve.

Further, most regional pilots are still chasing the mirage, believing that this job is a valuable time-builder to a high-paying mainline seat, ignoring the fact that there are about 20 regional pilots for every one (1) seat at a major....most will never get a chance. A perfect pyramid scheme, upon the hopes of which a few lucky owners/CEO's are making millions.

If a strike were to miraculously materialize, the flying would instantly be shifted elsewhere. There is no longer a "struck work" concept, as regional airlines have been cleverly de-branded and intermingled since the 90's. The airline would go away and everyone, including management, would lose.

Our poker hand is incredibly weak, and plainly visible to the bosses. So they have no fear that a strike could happen. Their jobs are secure for now, since we are such a profitable component of the Delta system. And they'll go on spewing their smokescreens for another 4 years.....

 

["GO AROUND"]

It's clear to everyone that, if the union at ASA had any power at all, they would have gotten the contract issue resolved within about 2 years of its amendable date.

Name me one union that has any legal power other than a work stoppage?
It takes two to negotiate putz! What, you gonna go in and demand a new contract?

The 4+ years of absolutely NO progress is just a clear signal from management, and an affirmation by pilots, that the union is powerless.....dead.

It's just over 3.

The threat of a "work stoppage" does not exist. Any ASA pilot with other options has, or will soon, leave ASA. Those who remain are too desperate for a job and, unlike mainline pilots with their strikes, have no savings to fall back on during a strike: their families would literally starve.

Drinking straight from the Kool aid jug are you? You probably are managment with your attitude. I have savings to fall back on and 1 yr guys will probly make more on strike benifits.

If a strike were to miraculously materialize, the flying would instantly be shifted elsewhere. There is no longer a "struck work" concept, as regional airlines have been de-branded and intermingled since the 90's. The airline would go away and everyone, including management, would lose.

If you believe that they could instantly shift all the flying we do to someone else you're even more ignorant than your post. Moreover, if someone is stupid enough to fly struck work, enjoy the blacklist, I hear it's loads of fun. If managment lets it get that far then they are as stupid as I thought.

But our hand is weak, and plainly visible to the bosses. So they have no fear that a strike could happen. Their jobs are secure for now, since we are such a profitable component of the Delta system. And they'll go on spewing their smokescreens for another 4 years.....

Noone's job is secure in this industry right now. Profitable? Keep pissing the major work groups of the company off and see how profitable it stays. Oh, I forgot, they will instantly find somone to do our flying.

Step away from the company pole, smoker..... Or should I say flamer?