ASA Pilots: Time to Consider PBS?

[79%N1]

Gee, 124 to 140. Sound like growth to me. Last I checked PCL just got what, 22 900's for Delta with that last batch of 7, and more options to follow.

As for Mesaba, I'm just going by the "massive growth" I'm hearing that they are about to get. Managers at ASA are also saying that it looks like Mesaba will be getting the future DCI growth post-merger.

All ASA has got is the retirement of their ATR's.

 

[crj567]

I am confused about the "two lowest-cost" carriers. Would ASA have to be one of these two in order to get new growth, or in order to maintain the contract with DCI.

The main problem ASA has is that there are quite a few senior pilots around. We do have a few people who have been here for more than a decade-they are more expensive than a 3-year upgrade.

If DAL had not turned into such a clown circus , they would realize that senior people are generally more experienced, and that experience has value.

It should be noted that DAL gives not one rats ass about its pax anymore. They are only concerned about the legal liability from a crash. Since the recent Comair crash proved once again that they are completely insulated from any liability, they are emboldened to take risks with less experienced pilot groups. If that means their pax get on planes at Mesa and PNCL flown by totally immature jerkwads (see PNCL crash for that one,)DAL could not care less, just so they don't have to pay for the lawsuits.

-Ain't the new mgmt just great?

 

[DoinTime]

Gee, 124 to 140. Sound like growth to me. Last I checked PCL just got what, 22 900's for Delta with that last batch of 7, and more options to follow.

Our fleet was at 139 three years ago it then shrank to 124 then back up to 139 then down to 130 now back up to 138 and it will level out at 140 next spring.

We currently operate 14 CRJ 900s for DAL. This will peak at 18 next month then shrink to the original order of 16 sometime after the new year. We have no commitments, orders, or options pending.

As for Mesaba, I'm just going by the "massive growth" I'm hearing that they are about to get. Managers at ASA are also saying that it looks like Mesaba will be getting the future DCI growth post-merger.

You should know better than believing crappy rumors, wild speculation, and outright lies posted on here. Between 2000 and 2007 Mesaba was literally cut in half, likewise, PCL was cut in half in the late '90s. All I hear is bitching and moaning about losing 12 ATRs but has ASA ever been cut in half?

All ASA has got is the retirement of their ATR's.

Maybe it predates your employment with ASA but I certainly remember you guys getting solid growth not to many years ago. Just because you missed the growth doesn't mean it never happened.

 

[knightflyer]

Don't give in. PBS RUN AWAY. You all giving into PBS won't matter a hill of beans to the final count.

 

[enuffalready]

The problem that ASA has is that you can only go to the well so many times. During negotiations we heard about 900's, uncertainty, poor performance, etc. Then once the contract was settled, we did not receive anything except no more ATR's. So when they come at us again and say that we need PBS or we will shrink, well, we have heard it before..

 

[DrewBlows]

I'm not sure where to start...

The main problem ASA has is that there are quite a few senior pilots around. We do have a few people who have been here for more than a decade-they are more expensive than a 3-year upgrade.

If DAL had not turned into such a clown circus , they would realize that senior people are generally more experienced, and that experience has value.

What value does experience have to Delta? Do more experienced pilots fly the airplane smoother? Do more experienced pilots know how to massage the thrust levers to burn less fuel?

In my opinion Delta doesn't care who flys their connection aircraft. You were right on the money when you note that more experienced pilots cost more. I guarantee cost is something Delta thinks about.

The problem with any contract carrier is that their business model depends on the company continually growing. At the regional airline level all costs are more or less the same from company to company. Aircraft leases, fuel, landing fees, etc. are comparable at all regional airlines, but labor costs vary greatly from one company to the next. A company that is growing has a huge advantage over one that is stagnant because there is a constant influx of new hires who, as we all know, don't get paid a whole lot. This means per employee costs are lower at the growing company. On the other hand a shrinking company has a much greater per employee cost because even the junior employees are relatively expensive.

The downside of relying on a growing company for lift are the growing pains that come with a growing airline. Problems with training, scheduling, and aircraft deliveries can lead to canceled flights, which can evaporate any savings from cheap labor very quickly.

Theoretically, the cheapest lift would come from one giant company which grows continuously. The problem with one large company is the large company would gain price advantage from being the only game in town, so while they would be cost effective for a while there is potential to get priced out of the market in the long run.

It should be noted that DAL gives not one rats ass about its pax anymore. They are only concerned about the legal liability from a crash. Since the recent Comair crash proved once again that they are completely insulated from any liability, they are emboldened to take risks with less experienced pilot groups. If that means their pax get on planes at Mesa and PNCL flown by totally immature jerkwads (see PNCL crash for that one,)DAL could not care less, just so they don't have to pay for the lawsuits.

-Ain't the new mgmt just great?

This is just wrong. Delta does not want accidents and they are not insulated from their cost. An accident brings bad publicity and reduced bookings. If it became a pattern, several accidents could drive an airline out of business.

The other point I want to make is that Comair is a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta. Any cost associated with an accident at Comair is felt at Delta. The reality is as long as insurance premiums were paid (they were), Delta and every other airline already absorbed the cost long ago.

 

[777forever]

Good post. Bottom line is ASA has everything lined up for more growth except one factor, cost.

Unfortunately, that's a VERY important factor in this phase of the game.

 

[79%N1]

So it looks like JA was telling it like it was with his 'Four Option' plan. I believe this is Option 3.

 

[IBNAV8R]

PBS has worked very well for me. My biggest complaint is that it shifts the burden for any conflict resolution to the bidder. For example, I have sim next month and I like to bid Commutable 3 or 4 day trips with Fri-Sun off. The training pairing only pays 7 hours but effectively blocks out two entire days (Tue./Wed). I must now bid around this event while at the same time bid sufficient hours to make the minimum. If I'm lucky, I get an 11-hour two-day (one of which is on a preferred off day) and THEN pay for a hotel rather than have THEM dovetail the training into my scheduled trip.

 

[ASADFW7]

Good post. Bottom line is ASA has everything lined up for more growth except one factor, cost.

Unfortunately, that's a VERY important factor in this phase of the game.

If you want to be more productive volunteer to push wheelchairs on thanksgiving week. As for volunteering for the pilot group something like PBS, five years of negotiations was at a cost. Giving up those costs so you can upgrade is selfish. It is interesting to see what you represent. Yourself.

Think about it the pilot group spoke as a collective group you are speaking for your upgrade selling out everyone else. I think this is shameful. I worked at ASA for five years and was there for many of the negotiations years. PBS was a big no then, and should be a big no now. ASA can manage better overlap but they don't, not the pilots responsibility.

 

[777forever]

If you want to be more productive volunteer to push wheelchairs on thanksgiving week. As for volunteering for the pilot group something like PBS, five years of negotiations was at a cost. Giving up those costs so you can upgrade is selfish. It is interesting to see what you represent. Yourself.

Think about it the pilot group spoke as a collective group you are speaking for your upgrade selling out everyone else. I think this is shameful. I worked at ASA for five years and was there for many of the negotiations years. PBS was a big no then, and should be a big no now. ASA can manage better overlap but they don't, not the pilots responsibility.

I represent myself? I think not. I never mentioned anything about upgrade. Honestly I'm more concerned about holding a line vs. reserve than upgrade right now.

I do not represent myself when almost every ASA pilot wants the company to grow and above all to stop the shrinking.

I'm pretty sure almost every pilot took a pretty significant paycut when most lines were reduced to 75ish hrs.

As far as negotiations go, if we had taken the contract the first time it was offered we would have had 17 900s and wouldn't be in this position right now but that's another story.....

Like another user said, every other DCI carrier has PBS. Management will ask what makes ASA so special? I think eventually we'll be forced to use it. So maybe we should volunteer to switch while we can still get something out of it.

 

[Medeco]

You can put me in the no PBS box too

777 it is very short sighted to think we will be rewarded for anything in terms of a give back or give in.

I am all for making ASA a cost effecient airline, in order to help out our future, but the pilot group did not sign the contract with DAL to be the second lowest DCI carrier, Mr. Atkin did. I asked him first hand what he was thinking with this and he told me flat out he thought it could be achieved, but offered no details. I reminded him we (ASA) were a union carrier and he was pretty silly to think ASA's pilots would roll over. This was during his first meet and greet at ASA after the purchase.

Alot has changed but some things will never. Please look at Comair as a prime example of being promised something and getting nothing.

Don' be a sucker, ASA/Skywest Inc. is counting on it.

By the way IF it came to it, ASA has the first right of refusal to meet a requirment of cost for future growth, before DAL can pull the plug on our 15yr contract.

Skywest shareholders would not like the result.

Also, why is our holding company investing in ASA making capital improvements all over the place if our future is so bleak?

Medeco

 

[777forever]

777 it is very short sighted to think we will be rewarded for anything in terms of a give back or give in.

I am all for making ASA a cost effecient airline, in order to help out our future, but the pilot group did not sign the contract with DAL to be the second lowest DCI carrier, Mr. Atkin did. I asked him first hand what he was thinking with this and he told me flat out he thought it could be achieved, but offered no details. I reminded him we (ASA) were a union carrier and he was pretty silly to think ASA's pilots would roll over. This was during his first meet and greet at ASA after the purchase.

Alot has changed but some things will never. Please look at Comair as a prime example of being promised something and getting nothing.

Don' be a sucker, ASA/Skywest Inc. is counting on it.

By the way IF it came to it, ASA has the first right of refusal to meet a requirment of cost for future growth, before DAL can pull the plug on our 15yr contract.

Skywest shareholders would not like the result.

Also, why is our holding company investing in ASA making capital improvements all over the place if our future is so bleak?

Medeco

Very true, when management negotiated the contract they should have planned to align cost to be the 2nd lowest even with our current bidding system.

I think you're right, guess that's why cost saving measures are being researched at other departments.

Skywest is investing ALOT of capital in ASA. The new A-tech looks great (being painted in Delta colors makes me kinda skeptical on future growth outside DAL)

Overall me and many others are hoping management can pull this cost reduction effort off successfully and prevent Mesaba and Compass from raiding our flying.

DCI overall will shrink but ATL is set to grow under the New Delta. Contractually ASA/Skywest should get a piece of that pie, at least 80% of it.

 

[Texx]

1. I represent myself? I think not. I never mentioned anything about upgrade. Honestly I'm more concerned about holding a line vs. reserve than upgrade right now.

I do not represent myself when almost every ASA pilot wants the company to grow and above all to stop the shrinking.

I'm pretty sure almost every pilot took a pretty significant paycut when most lines were reduced to 75ish hrs.

2. As far as negotiations go, if we had taken the contract the first time it was offered we would have had 17 900s and wouldn't be in this position right now but that's another story.....

3. Like another user said, every other DCI carrier has PBS. Management will ask what makes ASA so special? I think eventually we'll be forced to use it. So maybe we should volunteer to switch while we can still get something out of it.

1. I, I and I.

2. If you really think this ask the CMR guys about the growth they were promised. ZERO, they were cut.

3. Is this your code word for FAVOR? Are you the type that has to be just like everyone else? Every airline is different. What works for one may not work another.

My crystal ball says that in 2 years, the same time the DCI agreement and the current contract is amendable (that's the reason the company went from 5 years straight to 3 years duration), ASA will have approx 1000 pilots on their list. Look at Air Wiskey.

 

[79%N1]

Wait Texx,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been predicting big things ahead for ASA?

I thought that was the tone of many of your posts. Now you say you think we'll lose over 600 pilots?

 

[PCL_128]

777, I think you spent too much time on the ATR flying with JoeyMerchant. Don't fall for that crap. PBS is a nightmare, and you shouldn't give them anything without something in return.

 

[PCL_128]

Oh, and 79%, I don't know where you're getting this idea that Pinnacle is such a growth machine, but Pinnacle is smaller today after getting the Delta flying that it was when I left a couple years ago. Pinnacle has been stagnant for a long time.

 

[Texx]

Wait Texx,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been predicting big things ahead for ASA?

I thought that was the tone of many of your posts. Now you say you think we'll lose over 600 pilots?

I think if you look at my past posts you will see many different predictions on people leaving but as for the "predicting big things" you may have misunderstood the post about the tail platforms being moved further back as big.

IMO, ASA will not grow. Growth means increasing airframes. Just like DAL offered 1 900 for 2 50s. That is not growth.

 

[Texx]

777, I think you spent too much time on the ATR flying with JoeyMerchant.

That was a low blow.

 

[Freebrd]

PBS on the wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

Gathering in Las Vegas, NV, our ASA MEC met last week to conduct regular business and participate in a week-long ALPA Board of Directors meeting that concluded this week.
Throughout the regular session, members of the MEC received detailed reports from several committee chairmen. This afforded a chance for the MEC to direct future efforts on the part of each committee. We’ll provide updates on those reports and findings in upcoming editions of the Connection.
The one area of concentration most likely to peak everyone’s interest is in the field of a Preferential Bidding System (PBS). We reported to you in the last Connection email that the MEC PBS Working Group (PWG) was reaching the end of their research, to determine whether or not a PBS system would improve the quality of life for all ASA pilots as well as enhance the productivity of the company. The MEC received a detailed report from the Pilot Working Group (PWG).
It is clear that the PWG, during numerous meetings, compiled extensive research and knowledge on the available PBS systems and their practical application. It is the PWG’s recommendation to the MEC that PBS can in fact improve the quality of life for ASA pilots if an adequate PBS application is selected and appropriate parameters and controls are established and managed by ALPA pilots.
In result of these findings, and at the request of ASA management to enter in negotiations regarding PBS, the ASA MEC drafted and unanimously passed resolution 08-14.