Asa pbs ta

[Tarzan]

Noise,
I understand your point you are making. But what about our current contract would you change besides getting more pay? Stitch up a few scheduling holes? More days off? The biggest complaints I've heard about the current contract fall into the schedule realm. Hopefully, ALPA (If I were running things) will use this time to fix these things. Probably have an additional day a month on top of this.

Point is, ASA basically has one of the leading contracts in the regional side of the house. The company is looking for some help here. I am not advocating bending over and giving the company free rein to abuse us. However, I am trying to keep from the militancy about the pilot group being unwilling to bend to help secure our future within SkyWest Inc. Give a little and from the current track record, we get a little bit as well.

These guys are looking for some wiggle room to be able to increase profits. Profits aren't as bad you think either. We get some of that in return as well. If we are able to get our net margins up, we could wind up with considerably more every quarter. And there is more pay for you as well. So how is that bending over if we get more money and more days off?

In closing, the union hasn't helped the cause one iota. They have done nothing but talk down and PBS from day one. Now, they suddenly jump out from behind the door and yell, "Trick or PBS!" You along with many others are reacting exactly how I would expect after this time. Give some time and go to a road show. You may be pleasantly surprised.... Or you might not be. Either way, give it a look before you start sniping.

 

[USCtrojan]

Noise,
I understand your point you are making. But what about our current contract would you change besides getting more pay? Stitch up a few scheduling holes? More days off? The biggest complaints I've heard about the current contract fall into the schedule realm. Hopefully, ALPA (If I were running things) will use this time to fix these things. Probably have an additional day a month on top of this.

Point is, ASA basically has one of the leading contracts in the regional side of the house. The company is looking for some help here. I am not advocating bending over and giving the company free rein to abuse us. However, I am trying to keep from the militancy about the pilot group being unwilling to bend to help secure our future within SkyWest Inc. Give a little and from the current track record, we get a little bit as well.

These guys are looking for some wiggle room to be able to increase profits. Profits aren't as bad you think either. We get some of that in return as well. If we are able to get our net margins up, we could wind up with considerably more every quarter. And there is more pay for you as well. So how is that bending over if we get more money and more days off?

In closing, the union hasn't helped the cause one iota. They have done nothing but talk down and PBS from day one. Now, they suddenly jump out from behind the door and yell, "Trick or PBS!" You along with many others are reacting exactly how I would expect after this time. Give some time and go to a road show. You may be pleasantly surprised.... Or you might not be. Either way, give it a look before you start sniping.

Great post Tarzan.

Trojan

 

[Noise]

The point is Tarzan that the company is always going to be looking for "help". As long as people like you are willing to just be a push over and offer them whatever "help" they need we are going to keep getting pushed around and will never get anywhere. Good luck with your compaign. I'm not saying we need to be militant, but as far as I can see we just take concession after concession. What our pilot group really need is unity. With the current environment it doesn't even matter anyways, as probably only 40% of the pilots will vote anyways. For example, how many nomination cards have been sent in? I agree with you that ASA has one of the better contracts for a regional. However, this does not mean that we need to just accept minimal enhancements just because it would "help" the company.

 

[Tarzan]

Where have we started taking concessions? You claim not to be militant yet, you make the claim that we are steadily sliding backwards. Minimal enhancements? Yes, it may be minimal but it is an enhancement that gives our company leverage to bid against the underbelly of the industry namely Pinnacle and Mesa. Those spineless pilot groups seem hell bent on undermining us all in the name of growth and whatever else they are being promised. Doing things like this at least gives us the opportunity to compete. If we can't compete, what good is it to be here? Be like Comair? Eagle?

 

[SLUF4]

I might be willing to sign off on PBS if they can fix the ready reserve system and up the min day to 4.0. Other than that I'm already being jerked around enough on a daily basis by scheduling to sign off on another tool for them to abuse us with. Has anyone noticed we are still doing about 860 flights a day except on the weekends? Things are supposed to pickup more in October, Nov, and Dec. according to SH's email a while back. It seems like they need more efficiency to be able to operate all these flights with the reduced staffing we have.

 

[79%N1]

. Has anyone noticed we are still doing about 860 flights a day except on the weekends? Things are supposed to pickup more in October, Nov, and Dec. according to SH's email a while back. It seems like they need more efficiency to be able to operate all these flights with the reduced staffing we have.

And yet there are nearly 80 LESS LINES on the 200 for Oct!!!! I can't believe more people are not making noise about this!!! That is a drastic cut, and was done to reduce the red arrow days. I, personally would rather have a few more red arrows and have my line back!

 

[ace6453]

And yet there are nearly 80 LESS LINES on the 200 for Oct!!!! I can't believe more people are not making noise about this!!! That is a drastic cut, and was done to reduce the red arrow days. I, personally would rather have a few more red arrows and have my line back!

You are right, this is a crock. I love how the union says that "the company has agreed to decrease reserve levels for initial open time". BULLSH*T. The union is full of retards if they actually believe that. 80 fewer lines means 80 more reserves and they use the same coverage, but now don't have red arrow days.

 

[Tarzan]

I was concerned about this happening. We have to find a happy medium here with this issue. Everybody will not be happy but we need to make it bearable for everyone. Do we hose the fewer junior Captains and First Officers and have more reserves to keep line values up with better reserve coverage or do we lessen coverage, get more lines with lower values and increase the red arrow days?

How about setting a reserve coverage of say 15% and letting the rest of the chips fall where they may? I believe this where we fell down on the scheduling holes. I haven't seen where the company would be required to maintain a set amount of coverage as a percentage.

Maybe allowing for 200 folks to get dual qualified to help with reserve coverage across the board with 70-76 seat over ride? Let this voluntary for those who want it?

There have to be a bunch of ways to overcome this stuff. Guess it is time for some phone calls to my reps if they even care about what I think.

 

[maxcackel]

I can't believe you people are looking at the email our ALPA reps sent out and are all the sudden convinced that PBS is the new answer for ASA to get future growth.

What positive things are we getting from PBS?

A raise in minimum duty day from 3.75 to 3.86? Skywest's min day rig is 3.86 and last time I checked they don't have to ship 2% of their pay to a union. I do not understand why we caved in yet again and didn't ask for something more significant like a 4, 4.25, or 4.50 hr min day. Why ask for something that our sister carrier already has and not ask for more? This is stupid!

Bottom line, we are going to get screwed as far as vacation is concerned no matter how you look at it. For example: A pilot bids for a week of vacation the week before (or after) Thanksgiving (or any other holiday for that matter) and elects to drop trips on either side of their vacation. Will the company just drop the trips like they currently do or will they say that you can't drop a trip over a holiday? Is the company going to have the "restricted days" like they currently have in the contract with the addition of PBS? I guess we just wait for the road shows to see.

The other question is how much money is ASA saving with the implementaton of PBS? I have have heard 8M/yr (ALPA) on the high side and 2M/yr (Company) on the low side. From what we are being offered as incentives for taking PBS this in no way equates to even 2M.

By taking this PBS we lock ourselves into a 1% raise per year. This is a pay cut each and every year. This does NOT even come close to covering cost of living. Do you want to be locked into a contract until 2014 or later? Thats where were headed by signing this.

I can not believe all the kool aid BS I hear in the lounge these days. ASA will get new flying with us getting PBS, We need to be more competitive. As far as I am concerned pilot costs account for a very very small percentage of the overall cost structure at Skywest inc.

I'm sure that this doesn't matter because all that will happen is people will complain after this thing gets voted in after we have about 300 people actually vote. The vote that we had for the furlough assistance fund was absolutely pathetic! How many people voted, 265 out of 1800? This is going to be the same ____ different day. I look forward to hearing all you morons complain, and how you all voted no, just like what happened after we signed this contract even though only 160 other ppl besides me voted no.


NOISE

Excellent post Noise, spread the word. 3.86 is like 6 minutes of pay, big whop. And a contract extention? I would rather fix some scheduling problems a year earlier. The new swap and drop is better but not worth pbs and not going to be as helpful with very little open time due to pbs. Like I said tie it to growth, everyone wins.

 

[79%N1]

They had better care what you think!! They are there to represent you. I think the problem with this group is that they may not care..........

 

[maxcackel]

Concessions have not brought new flying to any regional in recent memory. PBS is a concession. End of story.

Thank you.

 

[OCP]

Concessions have not brought new flying to any regional in recent memory. PBS is a concession. End of story.

They did for Skywest getting United flying.

 

[777forever]

They did for Skywest getting United flying.

DING DING DING!

SKW has very good work rules, implemented PBS and got a boatload of flying. The closer ASA gets to SKW in terms of cost(That's exactly what management is trying to do) the better future there will be for ASA. PBS was not even really a concession for them. Have you guys heard what the SKW guys get there bonus checks!?!?!?!? Wake up people!

 

[maxcackel]

DING DING DING!

SKW has very good work rules, implemented PBS and got a boatload of flying. The closer ASA gets to SKW in terms of cost(That's exactly what management is trying to do) the better future there will be for ASA. PBS was not even really a concession for them. Have you guys heard what the SKW guys get there bonus checks!?!?!?!? Wake up people!

The ding thing is wore out. But if this what you think you better change your screen name to FOForever.

 

[777forever]

The ding thing is wore out. But if this what you think you better change your screen name to FOForever.

Yea if we maintain the status quo I will definitely be FOforever or Furloughedforever. Getting our costs and operations in line with Skywest will bring us growth, which in turn will bring us MORE money, and BETTER QOL. Remember, the more profit ASA makes, the bigger our bonus is. Gotta look at the big picture Max. If the pilot group remains stubborn ASA will rapidly become the next XJET,CMR, or EAGLE. But I have a feeling we have a lot of smart, long term interested, big picture looking pilots at ASA. Also, when the LOA comes out, I believe it will prove that the MEC did excellent work.

 

[SLUF4]

don't xjet, cmr, and eagle have PBS?

 

[WalterSobchak]

...big picture looking pilots...

Oxymoron of the century?

 

[maxcackel]

don't xjet, cmr, and eagle have PBS?

xjet does not have pbs, don't know about cmr or eagle

 

[maxcackel]

Yea if we maintain the status quo I will definitely be FOforever or Furloughedforever. Getting our costs and operations in line with Skywest will bring us growth, which in turn will bring us MORE money, and BETTER QOL. Remember, the more profit ASA makes, the bigger our bonus is. Gotta look at the big picture Max. If the pilot group remains stubborn ASA will rapidly become the next XJET,CMR, or EAGLE. But I have a feeling we have a lot of smart, long term interested, big picture looking pilots at ASA. Also, when the LOA comes out, I believe it will prove that the MEC did excellent work.

I don't need or want status quo. If your so convinced it will bring growth then you should have no problem tying pbs to growth as a stipulation. Giving up pbs is a huge bargaining chip to just give up on the hope of growth. So your selling the company pbs for a couple hundred dollars a year, maybe only one hunred for an fo, in bonus money? We don't have the same bonus pay as skywest so stop looking at that. But upper managment bonus will for sure be bigger.

 

[CRJ puppy]

xjet does not have pbs, don't know about cmr or eagle

Comair has PBS.

Sure would like to know where this mystery growth is coming from.

That whole economy thing is still kind of a factor...

Good luck with that.

:erm:

 

[maxcackel]

Comair has PBS.

Sure would like to know where this mystery growth is coming from.

That whole economy thing is still kind of a factor...

Good luck with that.

:erm:

I agree, no growth but I'm tired of people saying we have to have it or we won't grow. I am worried people will vote for it then bitch when nothing changes but our qol and our pay. And the small increase in bonus if we get it will not come close to the pay lost, especially on the ca pay scale.

 

[Tarzan]

I don't see much of anyone thinking we will get growth although there are a few. There is no guarantee of anything except that if our metric block is not reduced, we will not be able to compete against against the likes of Pinnacle or Freedom. I've seen the numbers before and we have a way to go to get there. If the number I've heard pitched bears fruit, with this measure alone, we even the playing field. None of the legacy bosses care about anything other than cost. That is the over riding factor. If we can keep our pay rates and rigs as well as QOL, why not get what we can and move forward?

Max, I guess you don't really see where the bonus thing can be significant. What has your bonus been at 2%? Do the math at 6 or 7% and tell me it will only be a hundred bucks. Tell me where you would be losing pay as a captain? I still don't see it. Give me something to beat on these guys about at the road show. Before the announce was made (about 3 weeks) a union make the quip that the only concessionary part about PBS was vacation and then you could still help yourself to some degree.

 

[JumpersAway]

Growth or no growth, the point is locking in our metric for securing our contract with big D. No metric, no contract, and no ASA. Delta (Northwest under a new name) cares about nothing else- the ground services bid process proves this. I completely understand, and agree, that this is not our burden to bear. However, we've got the option to assist management in doing this in exchange for a decent shot at some job security in an unsecure airline market. I'd have to say, that management seems to be trying to save money in all the right places first. However, they've got more work to do.

As one of the sharpest Captains I've flown with pointed out- the contract extension aids in providing a FIXED cost structure for the next several years here. Something that ASA needs to illustrate to anyone that is intrested in some feed from ASA. No one is going to lock into a contract with us if they don't see what's ahead as far as our costs are concerned. It's a massive selling point for us and the company.

As far as growth that's out there- hows this..... Apparently, JO has been in contact with Jerry Akins in an effort to secure financing/aircraft. The blood is in the water- it's only a matter of time. You might be on the way out if you're calling competitors for financial help..........

I sure would have loved to have heard how that conversation went!

 

[maxcackel]

I don't see much of anyone thinking we will get growth although there are a few. There is no guarantee of anything except that if our metric block is not reduced, we will not be able to compete against against the likes of Pinnacle or Freedom. I've seen the numbers before and we have a way to go to get there. If the number I've heard pitched bears fruit, with this measure alone, we even the playing field. None of the legacy bosses care about anything other than cost. That is the over riding factor. If we can keep our pay rates and rigs as well as QOL, why not get what we can and move forward?

Max, I guess you don't really see where the bonus thing can be significant. What has your bonus been at 2%? Do the math at 6 or 7% and tell me it will only be a hundred bucks. Tell me where you would be losing pay as a captain? I still don't see it. Give me something to beat on these guys about at the road show. Before the announce was made (about 3 weeks) a union make the quip that the only concessionary part about PBS was vacation and then you could still help yourself to some degree.

Tarzan, there are so many angles to look at not only pbs but like you bring up there is the Delta contract. Where does the lowering of the regional pilot's pay and benefits/qol end. What did you think several years ago when skywest agreed to be the second lowest priced regional next year? I was dumbfounded. But I think why did this happen? For sure it was an out for Delta if they wanted. But was it strong armed on Skywest or was it planned together to keep us in check? Know we have gotten use to the fact and we are willing to give up things to the company so we don't lose the contract and our jobs. Will Delta really dump us? If we just keep giving next it will be ASA has to be cheaper than Mesa or we lose our contract, guess we better get ready for that paycut. We will never know what happens behind closed doors at big D or St George but I bet we would be shocked. These companys are getting smarter at making money and doing it by making the employees do it for less. I believe we should get paid for what we do and paid well. I also believe for that we work our butts off to be the best airline product out there. Brad has given us the tools and motivation to be ontime, friendly costomer service people, and to save the company and Delta money anywhere we can. I do this everyday I work. I do not see the point in trying to keep up with the lowest cost airline, I know it looks like thats all Delta and othe majors want's but it can't go on forever or we will be working for Walmart wages and benefits. Wow tired posting may not be the best, oh well.

 

[Tarzan]

Max,
You keep harping on lost pay, benefits and QOL. Please tell me what where you are finding this. I simply don't see it. I've pointed out where I believe this may be a help to us all over time but you still say that only we are giving up pay. Please tell me where we'll take a pay cut. The SkyWest boys seem to be able to knock down huge credits over and they have a worse system than what we'll be on if it does pass. Just give me some specifics real or understood.

 

[Texx]

I agree, no growth but I'm tired of people saying we have to have it or we won't grow. I am worried people will vote for it then bitch when nothing changes but our qol and our pay. And the small increase in bonus if we get it will not come close to the pay lost, especially on the ca pay scale.

It's not about growth, it's about 20 airframes leaving early next year and what to do with them AND the xtra crews that fly them. You guys talk about the "brotherhood" and getting the furloughed pilots back. How do you think that's gonna happen?

As for the crying, how many people voted for the current contract and now are crying about it. Life is not perfect, it's give and take. If you don't want the possiblilty of the furloughs coming back and the possiblilty of keeping the 20 a/c flying next year then say it.

 

[AvroGuy]

No pbs at eagle

 

[HoserASA]

As for the crying, how many people voted for the current contract and now are crying about it. .

I didn't, but heard Trojan did! lmao

Hoser
Roll Tide!

 

[maxcackel]

Max,
You keep harping on lost pay, benefits and QOL. Please tell me what where you are finding this. I simply don't see it. I've pointed out where I believe this may be a help to us all over time but you still say that only we are giving up pay. Please tell me where we'll take a pay cut. The SkyWest boys seem to be able to knock down huge credits over and they have a worse system than what we'll be on if it does pass. Just give me some specifics real or understood.

This is a PAY CUT. Just some round numbers you will lose around 5 days off per week of vacation plus 2 days for training events per year. CAPT<7yrs = 12 days lost x 3.75min x $70. = $3150yr
CAPT>7yrs = 17 days lost x 3.75min x $85. = $5418yr
CAPT>15yr = 22 days lost x 3.75min x $100 = $8250yr
FO 4yr = 12 days lost x 3.75min x $40 = $1800yr
And don't forget the pay cut for all the open time you use to pick up to get that 95hr line will no longer exist. The crappy line pbs gives you is it for the month like it or not because there will be nothing to pick up or swap for due to pbs eliminating all the conflicting month to month, training and vacation drops. So if you get a 78hr line there is very little chance of making that a 90hr line equals a Pay Cut. Sure they will fix the open time rules, they don't care. But you are thinking about the new system with the amount of open time now, then the first time after pbs you jump in and are shocked that there is very little if any open time. The only way the company saves money is buy paying you less and working you more. How do people not see this?

 

[maxcackel]

It also depends on how much you work each year. If you don't max your vacation and work as least as possible like some I know you won't see much of a pay cut. But if you are like me and most I know who max our vacation and try to max out our hours each month you will see a large pay cut unless you are in the top 30 percent. So If you took my schedule this year and divided the amount of days worked by total pay that number will be much lower after after pbs. That is were the pay cut will be seen.