ASA Negotiations Suspended Indefinitely

[JoeMerchant]

Well screw it! Strike now and take the whole boat down. Sorry about the SKYWEST guys and girls but they have should stood behind the ASA employees and if not shut them down too. I am tired of these c@!ksucking Skywest pilots period.

Another pearl of wisdom from the chest-thumping bleacher section. What exactly would you have SKYW pilots do? The Skywest pilots, the Mesa pilots, the CHQ pilots are not to blame. They show up and do their job just like you and me. Maybe you should direct some of that anger at your half a million dollar a year ALPA president. The fact that you and others want to blame our fellow pilots for this problem will only help management drive the wedge further.

 

[atrdriver]

and will for the next 8 years.

Not with the companies current proposal you won't.

 

[crjskipper]

atr - you are dead wrong. Even the company 2% followed by 2% cut will give me raises (albeit small) for the next 8 years. I wont top out at 102, but at 90ish, but guess what, thats more than I would on the 200, and more than i make now. SO ITS STILL AN INCREASE AND NOT DISPLACEMENT!!!

Unless I am topped out at 18yrs, or between 15-18 years it wont be a cut.

 

[flylowman]

I know there is some ASA management who read this board. What I am asking is: Why do you guys beat down the employees so bad? I have been here for about five years. In that time I haven't felt that management is working for my best interest, nor the best interest of the company. They seem to be looking out for themselves. Do you know you have no air carts that work? Do you know you have to check to make sure that rampers are not steeling your luggage off the airplane? Have you seen little old ladies sit in the rain in a wheel chair, waiting on a lift? Do you know that flights sit on the ramp for up to thirty minuets waiting on rampers to come out of the break room to park us? Do you know that the pilots and flight attendants are the ones who make this company work as good as it does. I do all I can for the Paxs, but I will not help you get your bonus until you show us some faith. I will vote to strike, and I will watch as you and I loose our jobs. This can be avoided. Do what your mom told you, "Treat others as you would like to be treated","Lead by example". It is up to you.

 

[atrdriver]

atr - you are dead wrong. Even the company 2% followed by 2% cut will give me raises (albeit small) for the next 8 years. I wont top out at 102, but at 90ish, but guess what, thats more than I would on the 200, and more than i make now. SO ITS STILL AN INCREASE AND NOT DISPLACEMENT!!!

Unless I am topped out at 18yrs, or between 15-18 years it wont be a cut.

My understanding is that you would take a 2% cut from what you make right now, and then another 2% cut at DOS+1. That is off what you make now, not off the current pay schedule in the contract. The longevety scale would be gone. I may be incorrect about this, but that is how I understood the companies proposal. Thus, no increases at all for the term of the contract.

 

[atrdriver]

The industry standard is the gauge that is used. Not COLA, not what is fair, and not some arbitrary "middle". If it were that simple, we could ask for $1000 per hour on the 70 while management asks for 0. The middle would be $500 per hour. Obviously that wouldn't work.

But industry syandard isn't being applied by the company. They are using "standard" from the lowest three. That is just as wrong as DW taking his salary from the average of the top 3. You have a problem with one, but not the other. Why is that?

 

[crjskipper]

not an expert but i was told it was 2 (actually closer to 3) off the existing rates (as in payscale) now then 2 later. But I also was told it was not linear - that the cut was not as severe as that the lower you went down the scale. i have never liked how the 700 scale was 'scaled' to the last few years anyway.

and no, i have had many rough days at asa, but most of my days are pretty good. for the last half year i cannot remember waiting more than 10 minutes to park, and that was 15 minutes early. i dont feel beat on. i remember people on this site complaining that go pilots never flew enough, then last week i hear guys giving a management pilot crap for flying. face it - we all bitch, thats why we take the time to post here, but i have been here 10 years and dont think the grass is always greener. face it - we fly out of the worlds busiest airport, no matter how much money we make and how much management spends the operation will always be one of the most complicated on the planet.

 

[Bizjet]

quote=~~~^~~~]:

Bizjet - I'm with you on the substance of your position - I see no hurry to fold - but the personal attacks were way over the line. We are debating the contract, who cares about the personal details of someone's life? If he was sleeping with someone in the Maxim top 10, then I'd care.[/quote]

Joe Merchant post as facts what he spins for his own agenda. He will be challenged when he misrepresents the truth. He is codependent on his older girlfriend of 10 years and she continues to feed his inflated ego. Maybe he will go on Dr. Phil and seek help in breaking the shackles of dependency. The two of them were nothing more than order takers during '98'. The pilots resolve provided what we enjoy today not anything the two of them did. They spent most of their time telling each other how great they are. Their biggest claim to fame is they continued to have ALPA pay for two hotel sleeping rooms during the '98' out of town negotiations when only one was used. If you think all his statements are true you are being conned! If you don't like the truth block my post!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Joe:

Thanks. I hope that there is one critical difference between our current situation and the past that you have overlooked. The Delta pilots don't have a dog in this fight. ALPA has refused to process our grievances (or represent us in any way) if the action could be liberally interpreted to run counter to the Delta pilots wishes.

You have to admit that on a local level, ALPA works well for our pilots. Even on a national level, ALPA has provided support, at least up to the level where their strict allegience to the Delta pilots takes command.

You are correct that we are in a lousy negotiating position. We are in that position because we have not bound the company to using our pilots instead of replacements. I think the NMB would be sympathetic to our section 1 demands. After all employees working for their employer makes rational sense.

 

[crjskipper]

bizjet - i hoped you getted banned for life for being a jackass - try to have a civilized discussion or stay away and stop trolling with no argument but to throw mudd

 

[JoeMerchant]

I know there is some ASA management who read this board. What I am asking is: Why do you guys beat down the employees so bad? I have been here for about five years. In that time I haven't felt that management is working for my best interest, nor the best interest of the company. They seem to be looking out for themselves. Do you know you have no air carts that work? Do you know you have to check to make sure that rampers are not steeling your luggage off the airplane? Have you seen little old ladies sit in the rain in a wheel chair, waiting on a lift? Do you know that flights sit on the ramp for up to thirty minuets waiting on rampers to come out of the break room to park us? Do you know that the pilots and flight attendants are the ones who make this company work as good as it does. I do all I can for the Paxs, but I will not help you get your bonus until you show us some faith. I will vote to strike, and I will watch as you and I loose our jobs. This can be avoided. Do what your mom told you, "Treat others as you would like to be treated","Lead by example". It is up to you.

Flylowman,
I understand your frustration regarding day to day operations in ATL, especially over on Concourse D. However some points to consider:

1. It has gotten much better over the years. For the most part I usually only have to wait if I am early, and that is understandable.

2. ATL has problems that other hubs don't have, plain and simple. It is the single largest passenger hub in the World! It also has work ethic issues that you don't find elsewhere - sorry I don't know how else to put it.

3. I have seen current managment out at the airport much more in the last 6 months than I have seen in the past 12 years. I have seen many positive improvements in the past 6 months. I believe in giving credit where credit is do. Is it better? YES. Could it be better? YES Will it ever be perfect? NO.

4. Our current system Chief pilot is flying whole 3 day trips, not just cherry picking roundtrips. Our VP of Flt. Ops. is in the crew lounge on a regular basis and makes an effort to go out of his way to introduce himself and actually listen to crews. These are things I never saw in the past 12 years.

5. These issues have absolutely nothing to do with the contract, and a strike vote. You and I both know that the negotiations and vote is about improving pay and work rules, not getting air carts and more ramp help. Keep the issues separate.

 

[JoeMerchant]

But industry syandard isn't being applied by the company. They are using "standard" from the lowest three. That is just as wrong as DW taking his salary from the average of the top 3. You have a problem with one, but not the other. Why is that?

Atrdriver, unfortunately we are competing with some of the lower paid pilot groups for Delta flying. That being said, the 3 biggest sticking points as I see them are:

1. 70 seat rates
2. Instructor pay
3. B fund retirement

On those 3 issues, what we are asking for is above the industry standard regardless of how many carriers you include. In fact, in terms of 70 seat rates and Instructor pilots, we are asking for more than what the majors have agreed to. Sorry I think that is unreasonable.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe:

Thanks. I hope that there is one critical difference between our current situation and the past that you have overlooked. The Delta pilots don't have a dog in this fight. ALPA has refused to process our grievances (or represent us in any way) if the action could be liberally interpreted to run counter to the Delta pilots wishes.

You have to admit that on a local level, ALPA works well for our pilots. Even on a national level, ALPA has provided support, at least up to the level where their strict allegience to the Delta pilots takes command.

You are correct that we are in a lousy negotiating position. We are in that position because we have not bound the company to using our pilots instead of replacements. I think the NMB would be sympathetic to our section 1 demands. After all employees working for their employer makes rational sense.

I agree that what we are asking for in Section 1 is both attainable and warranted. I also agree that it doesn't have anything to do with the Delta pilots. That being said, we still have a fundamental problem in that all of our flying is for Delta and United. We are also competing for CAL and NWA flying. I still fundamentally believe that "competing for flying" and "collective bargaining" are inherently incompatible in this environment.

The problem is we are negotiating with a management team that is a subsidiary of management team that is competing with everyone else to win contracts that are mainly being driven by cost. I don't like it, but I do see it as a reality.

I agree with you that on a local level our people work hard and mean well. That being said, I think tactical error have been made.

 

["GO AROUND"]

The mediator recessed negotiations becasue the company stopped negotiating. Not the union. We have cut 8% or more off the rate increase of the original proposal and there is more to give in the process. The company gave 1% from their original proposal and has said there is nothing more to give. I call BS on that. The mediator see's ALPA giving a chunk at a time and the company not negotiating when its their turn to come off on their proposal. He then recessed both sides until the difference is lessened. Knowing full well that the ball is in the companies court. He called BS too.

So tell me how the company can't see they are getting a great ratio of cuts in negotiations?????? 8% to 1%.....So if you keep that ratio going it would be approx. a 3% raise for the 50 and ATR, a 2% cut for the 70 and that is unacceptable? I think not. That would keep us competitive, it may bring the profit margin down to SKW levels, but still accomodate growth.

Lastly, the company drew the line in the sand at the last session when they said it will come to a strike over the compensation. That is why the MEC has started the strike vote process, talking to the NMB about a proffer and getting released when we are down to 10-15% of the contract left.

 

[crjskipper]

go-around - it can just as easily be said that negotiations were parked because alpa is being unreasonable

Only a few pages ago someone was defending getting parked because the nmb is anti-labor and sided with mangement unfairly. spin is spin is spin

you cant say we want an industry standard contract if it puts us at the top - top is not standard

and as to the vote - we got parked, and the vote is long overdue. it will pass, but not by the extreme margin you hope

 

[surplus1]

From an outsider.

Don't panic over an NMB recess or parking, whatever you want to call it.

The NMB's function is to get an agreement. They couldn't care less about the content of that agreement. Parking the negotiations for a time is a standard tactic from the NMB - a way to apply pressure.

While the NMB is not partial about content, it is partial about politics. The bosses are political appointees of the current administration. Two out of three. This administration does not favor labor, it favors business. Don't be surprised if the NMB favors the administration that appointed it. It does. The are mediators, but sometimes they are also partisans. As long as you're aware of it, their strtegy should not be able to shake your resolve.

Bottom line the NMB doesn't want a strike. Its job is to prevent one if at all possible.

ALPA doesn't want a strike either. It's very expensive and seldom produces much gain. Don't be surprised if ALPA works with the NMB, behind the scenes, to pressure you into an agreement that you might not want. That's all part of the game.

What ultimately will get you an agreement is your collective resolve; not the NMB or ALPA.

If what I read in this forum is any indication of the group at large, you foks don't know what you want. You're not "resolved" about anything; you're divided and arguing with each other. This after a very long time at negotiations. By now, you should be rock solid about your needs. If your posts are any indicator, you are not rock solid and you are not united. You wont get a contract that way. At least not one that's worthwhile.

Make up your minds about your key positions. You're making the task of your CNC virtually impossible. They cannot get a contract or an impasse unless you are solidly behind their positions at the table. Again, from your posts, you are not.

If you know what you want you can sit out any NMB "recess" until he!! freezes over. They can tell when you have the resolve to do that and you won't give in to pressure from them or anybody else. As long as they don't see a solid and immovable unity, they can and will toy with your emotions. That's what they're doing.

No matter what you think about ALPA, if you have the courage to stick together you can force ALPA to do what you want and not what they want. I'm not talking about your local reps, I'm talking about the national union. They have to know for certain that the positions of your MEC are the positions of the ASA pilots, in the overwhelming majority. Until they do, and even when they do, they'll take the easy way out at your expense.

If this thread is any indicator of the ASA pilot group you'd better not try a strike. When you can't agree on what you want in your contract, how will you ever carry out a successful strike. It is not possible without unity.

For your own sake, stop the infighting and stand together with each other - for something. That's the only way you'll ever get anything!

Apologies in advance for the meddling and the rant.

 

[US Flyer]

From an outsider.

Don't panic over an NMB recess or parking, whatever you want to call it.

If what I read in this forum is any indication of the group at large, you foks don't know what you want. You're not "resolved" about anything; you're divided and arguing with each other. This after a very long time at negotiations. By now, you should be rock solid about your needs. If your posts are any indicator, you are not rock solid and you are not united. You wont get a contract that way. At least not one that's worthwhile.

Make up your minds about your key positions. You're making the task of your CNC virtually impossible. They cannot get a contract or an impasse unless you are solidly behind their positions at the table. Again, from your posts, you are not.

If you know what you want you can sit out any NMB "recess" until he!! freezes over. They can tell when you have the resolve to do that and you won't give in to pressure from them or anybody else. As long as they don't see a solid and immovable unity, they can and will toy with your emotions. That's what they're doing.

No matter what you think about ALPA, if you have the courage to stick together you can force ALPA to do what you want and not what they want. I'm not talking about your local reps, I'm talking about the national union. They have to know for certain that the positions of your MEC are the positions of the ASA pilots, in the overwhelming majority. Until they do, and even when they do, they'll take the easy way out at your expense.

If this thread is any indicator of the ASA pilot group you'd better not try a strike. When you can't agree on what you want in your contract, how will you ever carry out a successful strike. It is not possible without unity.

For your own sake, stop the infighting and stand together with each other - for something. That's the only way you'll ever get anything!

Apologies in advance for the meddling and the rant.

Thanks for a much needed post on this board.

I work for the company and read these posts all of the time. I am not a huge ALPA fan , but believe they are a necessary evil in the process.

I have also noticed the dissent between the "vocal minority" that frequently posts on the board. (Just from my personal opinion of people I've flown with) I believe many more are willing to walk out (or threaten to) than would be indicated on this board.

We have alot of great pilots and employees at our company, and I think much of the confusion you see here is mis-directed anger at managment for lack of progress. I always feel much better after bitc%^&* about the company and getting it out of the system.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

go-around - it can just as easily be said that negotiations were parked because alpa is being unreasonable

Only a few pages ago someone was defending getting parked because the nmb is anti-labor and sided with mangement unfairly. spin is spin is spin

you cant say we want an industry standard contract if it puts us at the top - top is not standard

and as to the vote - we got parked, and the vote is long overdue. it will pass, but not by the extreme margin you hope

That "standard" you speak of never goes north if pilot groups don't push that standard higher.

 

[601Pilot]

you cant say we want an industry standard contract if it puts us at the top - top is not standard

and as to the vote - we got parked, and the vote is long overdue. it will pass, but not by the extreme margin you hope

Industry standard? Who wants industry standard? I want above standard!
How do you ever expect to raise the rates if everyone is standard? Did you
guys fail math in high school or what? If they want to transfer assets away
from ASA, then by all means, have at it. But I'm not caving on pay rates.

 

[US Flyer]

I agree- how many of you have to put gas in your car?

When I came here gas cost around $1.30 a gallon. Now its averaging close to $3 a gallon. Our Chevron bill used to be $150 a month- last month it was $470. Even with the cars I have now being more fuel efficient than the ones I had five years ago. I bid trips on FLICA now based on how many roundtrips to the airport I have to do in a month. With ASA's remarkably efficient scheduling department, I cannot afford to fly daylines.

Our property taxes cost $700 more last year than they did in the year 2000. My kids tuition has also gone up tremendously.

The only thing that hasn't gone up at all to compensate in ANY WAY is my paycheck.

I don't think that some people in our company took statistics class to understand the concept of averages, mean, median or mode.

I don't want to kill the company financially, but if we are setting record profits, then we deserve a piece of the pie. WE ARE THE COMPANY.