ASA Negotiations Suspended Indefinitely

[AMANSWORLD]

I know you're mad, you have every right to be. Especially if you're SLC based and maybe even were in DAL before. But please tell me exactly what we should have done to have "stood behind" you and other ASA employees. I for one will not fly any struck work or routes. I will be sick that day. Know that I and the majority of the other SkyWest pilots support you guys.

Even when you're pissed off and venting.

Good Luck.

-JP

You sound like a stand up guy. I am venting because pilots in general have no balls anymore. ALPA truely has no balls. We as pilot need to set a standard and stick to it industry wide. I am tired of these piece of s@it pilots-read low timers willing to fly for nothing. I recently sat in resturant/bar where a flight instructor for a local college in his "FLIGHT UNIFORM" reading his JEPPS for his Delta interview -drinking his cheap beer and smoking cigs, as he told me and half the bar. So I played dumb for about 45 min asking all kinds of questions, then I showed him my union card and ATP -asked him if he wanted to step outside and finish the conversation needless to say he was a ************************* and all mouth. So I made a phone call to the dean of the college and let them know who is representing them. And the sad part is I hope the little flaming piece of crap is stuck flying nothing forever. These are the types of people in this profession I am tired of. They are everywhere and I would like the oppurtunity to kick the ******************** out of them all. No I am not pissed. It is time to even the playing field and that also goes for management. I do condone violence every chance I get and love it.

 

[1x1]

Here is my only question. SKYW pilots make more than us. So why not just go for the SKYW contract?

Makes sense to me. I know a 6.5 yr SKYW captain who grossed $117K last year. Isn't that more than the avg. 20 yr 700 Capatain here at ASA? Granted this guy picks up open time to the tune of getting 100 hrs. of credit per month, and works his tail off - but look at his motivation! Apparently the profit sharing works for him.

If we secured a contract like SKYW's , the biggest slap to our faces would be accepting a single pay rate for the CRJ's and 70's - but look at the potential for returns. Now, allowing mgmt. to pay 70 drivers less than 50 drivers, and also paying all of us less than standard is unacceptable. SKYW has to at least offer us the same as their own. Anyone feel like a beaten, red-headed step-child?

 

[Brasilia Flyer]

then I showed him my union card and ATP -asked him if he wanted to step outside and finish the conversation needless to say he was a ************************* and all mouth. So I made a phone call to the dean of the college and let them know who is representing them. And the sad part is I hope the little flaming piece of crap is stuck flying nothing forever. These are the types of people in this profession I am tired of.

No, sounds like you're a stand up guy! All tough and stuff.

 

[AMANSWORLD]

No, sounds like you're a stand up guy! All tough and stuff.

Any chance you wanna find out?

 

[ReportCanoa]

Let's not do anything to regret.

 

[Brasilia Flyer]

Any chance you wanna find out?

Only if you're going to bring your ATP and ALPA cards. You show up with your medical too and the deals off.

 

[ReportCanoa]

OOOh. Are those REAL active ALPA member cards? I'm only an apprentice.

 

[rjcap]

Makes sense to me. I know a 6.5 yr SKYW captain who grossed $117K last year. Isn't that more than the avg. 20 yr 700 Capatain here at ASA? Granted this guy picks up open time to the tune of getting 100 hrs. of credit per month, and works his tail off - but look at his motivation! Apparently the profit sharing works for him.

If we secured a contract like SKYW's , the biggest slap to our faces would be accepting a single pay rate for the CRJ's and 70's - but look at the potential for returns. Now, allowing mgmt. to pay 70 drivers less than 50 drivers, and also paying all of us less than standard is unacceptable. SKYW has to at least offer us the same as their own. Anyone feel like a beaten, red-headed step-child?

You are correct that Skywest pilots make more money. They have a consistently productive profit sharing plan due to a very competent mgmt and an outstounding ground operation in SLC. Unfortunately for ASA, we have neither of those qualities and would not be the beneficiaries of a consistently productive profit sharing program.

You are not correct in that that the acceptance of a single payrate was the intent of the skywest compensation program. The same rate was supposed too be for 18 months while the 700 was brought online. After that a new 700 rate was supposed to be negotiated. Here is an example of Skywest mgmt not living up to their promise.

Skywest has better morale and overall operation due to a very different corporate culture. Unfortunately the culture at ASA is so vastly different that what works for our friends in SLC will not work in ATL.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Skywest has better morale and overall operation due to a very different corporate culture. Unfortunately the culture at ASA is so vastly different that what works for our friends in SLC will not work in ATL.

Yep - If Skywest wanted their corporate culture on the ASA property they would have merged us like the acquired airline we are. Instead they put up scope language that says we are only a tool to be used as long as it is convenient. They will transfer our assets without regard for pilots on our seniority list. Just like they are taking our 70 seaters, shutting down SLC and sending a ton of senior pilots back to ATL.

This asset is voting to strike. I'm either on the team, or off the team. Don't take my equipment, tell me I'm not on the team, then expect teamwork from this player.

Congrad's Skywest pilots - enjoy our airplanes.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Well screw it! Strike now and take the whole boat down. Sorry about the SKYWEST guys and girls but they have should stood behind the ASA employees and if not shut them down too. I am tired of these c@!ksucking Skywest pilots period.

Could you be more specific about how the SKYWEST pilots failed to stand behind you? I'm sure many people viewing your drivel are curious as to exactly what the SKYWEST pilot group could have done to help you since the acquisition. So tell us. What could SKYWEST pilots have done to help?

I'm sure everyone is anxiously awaiting a cogent response from you.

 

[crjskipper]

I dont blame skywest pilots for this at all, if the shoe had been on the other foot - what could we do about it. Just remember only last month we were almost taking exjet flying. This is what happens when pilots from the smame union bid on each others work. I actually give sw pilots credit - at least they arent paying dues to get ratf*^ed.

 

[Crash Pad]

Makes sense to me. I know a 6.5 yr SKYW captain who grossed $117K last year. Isn't that more than the avg. 20 yr 700 Capatain here at ASA? Granted this guy picks up open time to the tune of getting 100 hrs. of credit per month, and works his tail off - but look at his motivation! Apparently the profit sharing works for him.

I'm guessing the profit sharing makes less than 10K of his pay. Come on Union guys tell me why the SKYW contract is not our last best and final offer?

Oh yeah and to the drunk fighting ALPA guy. You asked a CFI to step outside... Wow you really have balls. What was he 5'7" a buck oh five. I bet he wouldn't remember what a chandelle was after you were done with him.

How about this tough guy. You want to resurrect Hoffa and Union power. Beating up the local CFI's isn't going to work here is what I would do. Go to the GO find all the cars of senior management... throw a brick through the back window then some gas and light them on fire. Do it in broad day light... Then leave a union card in there mailbox at home saying something like "sorry to hear about your car".

I think that would not only be more effective it would also be hilarious to read the managment memo the next day.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Johnny,

Why don't you explain how little negotiating experience you really have? Your time on the "98" negotiating team was much less than any CNC member currently serving. You portray yourself as having spent a lot of time negotiating in front of the NMB. Actually ALPA and the Company were parked for a couple of months while you fiddled. The resolve of the ASA pilot group determined how long we were parked. The company asked to come back to the table because the operation was melting down. You were nothing more than a glorified order taker for the contract we work under today. You are the most disingenuous spin doctor I have ever witnessed. You write your own history and most of it is concocted. Your total experience was a few short months so stop doctoring your resume!

Boy toy, why don't you tell all your pro management bed wetter’s that you are terrified of a job action to get a descent contract? You and your girlfriend would both be out of work in the event of a Strike or A LOCK OUT! Aren’t you two overleveraged with your real estate holdings? Don’t you stand to lose your financial shirts so you have a decision to make! Scab or do everything in your power to convince those that have the balls to deliver a descent contract that they can't win! You fool none of us that know you. Your hatred for ALPA is legendary. You are an embarrassment to every pilot that carried your frightened weak a$$ in ‘98’ and now you and your Mommy have to make a tough decision. Scab or financial ruin! Well, John Boy, I guess we will not have to wait too long to find out how tough you really are? Don't worry too much because Mommy can go back over to management and keep you in beer money.

'Bout time someone put that little turd in his place.

No response? Guess he's crying in mommy's arms... or hittin' the sauce.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe Merchant:

I am not opposed to considering a market based approach to my decision whether or not to vote to approve the contract, as long as we are above the market average (as we should with the operational challenges we face and overcome as ASA IP's,CA, & FO's).

However, I'd like you to discuss the question, "Why shouldn't we shut this place down?"

You know my feelings on scope. Twice now in my short career I have been a pilot at an acquired airline that wasn't merged. In both cases we are a subsidiary of a holding company with no goal of attaining our own growth, or operational success. We are simply a lift provider, an alter ego lift provider at that. The Company does not want to elevate our position and unfortunately the issue is not on our union's agenda either.

With Section 1 as it is in our negotiations, why should we let up? If Management is in the game just to get what they can get from our alter ego paper creation of an airline, why shouldn't we be in that same game?

If we were on the team with our parent company, I might agree with you. But Delta, now Skywest, has made it clear that we are not on the team.

Don't take this the wrong way - I am curious your thoughts on the matter.

~~~^~~~

Fins, first off thanks for the civil debate. Reasonable people can have reasonable differences of opinion.

I share your frustration regarding scope and section 1. However until our bargaining agent ALPA agrees that we own our flying, anything we put in section 1 won’t be wo[e]rth the paper it is written on. ALPA won’t even process section 1 grievances under our current PWA. In fact when I was still a member of the contract study committee, Bill Roberts told me and the rest of the committee that there isn’t really any flying we can claim to own under the current arrangement. As it was, I was the ONLY one on the committee who asked anything about scope. When I did, you could see Bill and the others from representation get nervous.

I also share your frustration regarding not being part of a single team for the second time now. However that isn’t entirely managements fault. They are simply exploiting mistakes made by our own union. Remember ALPA didn’t want us to be a single team back in 2000. Even currently, one of our voting members said to me that a single list with the SKYW pilots wasn’t being considered. In fact he didn’t even believe that was attainable thru section 6 negotiations. I brought up the fact that both Mesa and CHQ had done exactly this in their most recent contract negotiations. Mesa negotiated for Freedom and CCAir and CHQ negotiated to bring Republic on board. Ironically, two of those certificates (Freedom and Republic) were created as a result of mainline scope. Once again the law of unintended consequences bites ALPA and we created more problems for ourselves. But I digress - I know I’m preaching to the choir.

As to your question “why not shut the place down”, I have several points.
First, I don’t believe the current NMB will release us based on some of our current demands. I’m sorry if sounds like I’m taking managements side, but quite frankly I do believe we are trying to “cherry pick” and are being unreasonable in some areas. I believe we could have attained more 4 years ago then we can now. I expressed that concern 4 years ago, but the majority wanted to drag things out until times improved. At the time, I believed that was a mistake.

In addition, when the XJT MEC agreed to their current PWA, they distributed the TA with a letter from the MEC stating that they didn’t believe they would get a release. This was the reason they agreed to a TA that was short of what some people wanted. I brought this up last year, and our MEC Chairman accused me of being a “doomsdayer”. Sometimes people refuse to accept the unpleasant realities that they face and if you point them out you are labeled a “doomsdayer”.

Finally, what would “shutting it down” accomplish? Specifically, would it stop the “race to the bottom”, or would some of our “brothers” simply step in and replace us. The CMR strike I believe was a watershed event. IMO, management won that battle. ALPA is too fractured, largely do to it’s own failures, to effectively mount any defense against the new reality of “fee-for departure” portfolios and RFPs.

Again thanks for the good debate - let’s continue it with “boat drinks” and “fins up”.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I said the 2 sides need to meet in the middle. Therefore to do that both sides ask for more than they think they can get and widdle down to the "middle".
For someone with so much exprience I thought you would have known how negotiations work.............
I guess not

You are over-simplifying how this works. It isn't as simple as both sides asking for more and then "widdling it down to the middle".

The industry standard is the gauge that is used. Not COLA, not what is fair, and not some arbitrary "middle". If it were that simple, we could ask for $1000 per hour on the 70 while management asks for 0. The middle would be $500 per hour. Obviously that wouldn't work.

While your right that both sides have opening positions that are at the extremes, and that the final result is in the middle somewhere. Where exactly that middle is depends more on the industry standard than on where each side began.