ASA: Growth or Contract?

[asarjfo]

Huh? ok.....

Ron White - AKA...."the Tater"

 

[Tomct]

We need to stand up and be counted!! I am sick and tired of hearing how bad things are going! This company is making so much money that it isn't even funny. Those of you who think we should bow down and take what is offered are NUTS!!!! It is that kind of attitude that ends up getting us SCREWED!!! I am with a lot of you PAY, SCHED, QofL! Forget this retirement thing. Look what is happening around the industry. Everyone is losing their retirements after being with a company for over 30 years! Take more money and get a better match on the 401K and walk away! The company is just hoping that we will give up some stuff for the retirement package, which we all know will SUCK, and we will lose something else!! Open your eyes guys, WE NEED THIS NOW!!! Have you ever heard of a Delta contract going for more than 6-8 months.....NO!!! Yet, here we are sitting back taking it like champs right in the "Pooper" and liking it. Heh, no wonder we are all part of a Grand Vision!! We are grabbing our ankles and taking it! Our Union needs to get tougher and cut the crap! I would like to see some results before I DIE!!! Stop **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** Footing around and get this deal done!
Wow, I feel much better! Hey thanks for letting me VENT!!
GET HER DONE BOYS!!

 

[Freebrd]

It is illegal for the union to 'suggest' things for you to do in order to get management's attention. You'll just have to start on your own, and then watch as it catches on with other pilots and spreads. Actually saw an FO unload almost the entire cargo load by himself recently! That'll get management's attention...NOT!

 

[Palerider957]

It is illegal for the union to 'suggest' things for you to do in order to get management's attention. You'll just have to start on your own, and then watch as it catches on with other pilots and spreads. Actually saw an FO unload almost the entire cargo load by himself recently! That'll get management's attention...NOT!

You should kicked him in his balls! I'm tired of these junior FO's shouting for services on the radio and running ragged to "get out on time." Captains, put the newspaper down and exercise some leadership! Educate these young whelps.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Indeed. God forbid some young wipper snapper try to do his part to advise operations that the aircraft is in need of lav service. As for doing what you can to help run on time, it would be a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** shame if it ever crossed our minds that this is a customer service industry.

I am all for getting a good contract, but with an attitude that constantly says fu@k the people who are paying for the tickets it won't be long before we are down the deep, dark sh1thole that every airline but JetBlue, AirTran and Southwest is in.

 

[DDpaysoff]

Shut the hell up and get a $20 an hour across the board raise like CoEX did.


LOL!

 

[FL990]

Indeed. God forbid some young wipper snapper try to do his part to advise operations that the aircraft is in need of lav service. As for doing what you can to help run on time, it would be a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** shame if it ever crossed our minds that this is a customer service industry.

I am all for getting a good contract, but with an attitude that constantly says fu@k the people who are paying for the tickets it won't be long before we are down the deep, dark sh1thole that every airline but JetBlue, AirTran and Southwest is in.

I agree. We can't sacrafice customer service just to piss management off. Whether we like it or not, when we do harm to the companies reputation, it affects us as pilots negatively as well. I'm not saying that we need to be out there loading bags...thats not our job, and if we start doing that, they won't keep enough ramp staff because "the pilots can just help out." No, we really shouldn't be doing this, but we should be doing our job. I believe that the book says that we are supposed to call for a departure coordinator...is that correct? Regardless, there is a procedure to follow when the aircraft needs serviced and that is what we need to do. But we should not have this "screw ASA" attitude because that ulitimately effects our lifeline, which is our customers. We need to remember that...those people in the back of the plane, they aren't just passengers, they are customers and like Metro said, this industry is a customer service industry.

 

[SBD-2U3]

I think its time to run a safe operation like we always have. Customer service, safety, maintenance. Run your checklist like the ops specs say. If its questionable check your ops specs. If the aircraft is broke wright it up. If things don't happen the way they should then we should call the DC. One call thats all. Things are not like 98. Use your heads.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Metro's correct!

DD, get a life!

I am curious as I read all of these chest thumping threads as to who really is in the know. How much exactly do you think that we will get as an increase in pay and bennies. I will be the first to admit that we have the WORST screw scheduling department in the industry. You can not hold someone accountable when there is no system in place. This is the Gary Grosse (sp?) plan. It is nothing more than screw up, move up. But with this in mind, to me, moving to the left seat at our rates is a HUGE raise over FO pay. With the number of aircraft projected to come our way, we can NOT ignore the value and QOL issues here. If we get a 10% raise (which is highly unlikely), and even get crew scheduling to be held accountable for their actions, the gain will not outway the advantage of hundreds of Captain positions. I am in NO WAY suggesting that we take LESS of a contract in lue of additional aircraft. But if you read these threads, they imply that we should get a better contract (what ever it may be) at ANY cost. Just remember, there may be more ways to get what we want than the status quo. Maybe it would be just as important to accept as many aircraft as possible while working on contract negotiations as it would be to try and get the best contract possible while putting up a wall we cant get past. Just a thought!

 

[SBD-2U3]

Tim is correct...At any cost is no good and there is no room for chest thumping.

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

DO NOT USE personal cell-phones for Company business.

If necessary, return to the gate, shut down, enter terminal to find a phone. Unfortunately, this may cause extensive flight delays.

According to the FAA, it is illegal to even have a cell phone powered-up in the cockpit. Don't put your career at risk!

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

I agree. We can't sacrafice customer service just to piss management off. Whether we like it or not, when we do harm to the companies reputation, it affects us as pilots negatively as well. I'm not saying that we need to be out there loading bags...thats not our job, and if we start doing that, they won't keep enough ramp staff because "the pilots can just help out." No, we really shouldn't be doing this, but we should be doing our job. I believe that the book says that we are supposed to call for a departure coordinator...is that correct? Regardless, there is a procedure to follow when the aircraft needs serviced and that is what we need to do. But we should not have this "screw ASA" attitude because that ulitimately effects our lifeline, which is our customers. We need to remember that...those people in the back of the plane, they aren't just passengers, they are customers and like Metro said, this industry is a customer service industry.

I understand what you are saying but....I don't think you can piss off pax much more than shutting down the airline like we did for 89 days, and they all came back....


Sometimes it takes a concerted effort to get mgt. to listen and if it means going by the book 100% you better be ready and willing to do it.

Just my opinion from experience.

 

[FL990]

Sometimes it takes a concerted effort to get mgt. to listen and if it means going by the book 100% you better be ready and willing to do it.

Just my opinion from experience.

Fella,

This is basically what I was suggesting. I think we are on the same page here. We should do OUR job, what the book says WE are supposed to do.

(The middle portion of this post has been deleted)

However, I would like to stress that I think it is important to maintain a high level of direct customer service to our passengers. The idea is to get the companies attention, not the passengers.

 

[surplus1]

FL990,

Pardon me for butting in. I understand what you're trying to say as well as your frustrations. At the same time I don't think you fully understand the process despite your good intentions.

It really doesn't matter what the union says or how carefully it is crafted. The union can't and should not do what you suggest.

The company keeps statistics on your operation. If those statistics suddenly change, regardless of the reason, the union will be accused of instigating an illegal job action. It really doesn't matter if the union did or it didn't. If the Company goes to court all it has to do is present the changed statistics and the judge will rule in favor of the company and enjoin the union. If the activity that caused the change in statistics, regardless of what it was, doesn't stop or if the stats don't return to what they were, the union will be blamed and so will individual pilots. Individual pilots could also be enjoined and probably would be.

Believe it or not Comair pilots were actually ordered by a federal judge not to make write ups of aircraft discrepancies. That happened even though the Company had no evidence of even ONE write up that was not legitimate or that was not required by the FARs. The judge ignored the FARs and issued an order that virtually required a pilot to ignore them. I'm not exaggerating, that's the truth.

Now maybe the Company won't take you to court, but if they do you aren't going to win. If I had to guess, my guess is they will take you to court. They've done that before and it worked; they'll do it again. Most Federal judges are anti-labor and they will NOT rule in your favor. I'm not suggesting that you should be "nice", but I am recommending that you should not be stupid.

Use your heads. The only way that writeups can suddenly increase, is is you have not been complying with the FARs and you suddenly decide to comply. The only way that delays can suddenly increase is if you have not been complying with company procedures and ops specs and you suddenly start to comply. How are you going to justify that you have been operating in violation of your own procedures and now all of a sudden you're going to "follow the book"? Why haven't you been following the book every day? Are you really ready to admit that you have not been making required writeups and "carrying" discrepancies; have not beeg complying with company procedures and ops specs? Sorry but it sounds to me like you've already dug your own hole, and now you want to pull the dirt in on yourself.

I know that's harsh, but I'm just trying to make the point of how what you suggest will look to others. They aren't going to see you as a bunch of good guys that have been "helping" the company and just don't want to help anymore. They're going to see you as taking an illegal job action. Remember, the person that will make the decision (a Federal judge) probably knows little or nothing about everyday airline operations and doesn't give a da_n.

Like it or not I will also tell you that if the company does take you to court, the ALPA will defend the ALPA and leave you to the wolves. It will NOT defend ASA pilots at ALPA's expense. You aren't UAL and you aren't DAL. Don't expect the same treatment from ALPA; you won't get it. ALPA will take care of itself long before it takes care of you. That's just the way it is. In case you're wondering where I got that idea, that is exactly what ALPA did when the company took Comair pilots to court. You don't have to take my word for it. Just read the transcripts of ALPA's arguments; they are public record.

From what I read in your posts, in general, your problem is not getting the Company's attention. Your problem is unity among yourselves. It is obviously lacking and sticks out like a sore thumb. You all don't agree with each other. Until you do or can at least give the appearance that you do, the Company will continue to ignore your negotiators.

A good example of your lack of unity is this thread. You are debating with each other, in public, whether or not you should exchange "growth" for a lesser contract. I can't tell you which one you should take, but I can tell you that until you are all on the same page the Company will continue to delay the process.

I'm an outsider and from what I read in this thread you are NOT on the same page. Whenever you figure out what you want and can say it with a single voice, the Company will begin to listen. They couldn't care less how many times you call on the radio or how many times you don't. Right now, if they are reading this thread, they will see the same thing that I see .... uncertainty and lack of unity in the pilot group. They will use that to their advntage and you can take that to the bank.

Sorry, but that's how I see it.

 

[FL990]

Surplus,

I do appreciate your input, and you are correct, I do not have a great deal of experience dealing with ALPA/Management and I do not doubt that ALPA would protect itself first over individual pilots.

I do question some of the statements you made regarding the federal judge order to discontinue MX write-ups. I'm not calling you a liar, but I am fairly certain that court orders like that wouldn't hold water in an appeal process. In addition, attacking individual employees for following company mandated procedure would most likely crumble in appeal as well. But, I do follow you on your criticism of my idea about the "letter" to the pilots from ALPA and that, according to your argument, I can understand would create legal problems...so I recant that post and will delete that portion of it.

However, I would like to further clarify my position on this entire matter of the contract. You are very correct with what you said about unity and this is what I have been pounding on through most of my posts here. As you clearly understand, the true power of the union is in unity. Without it, we are like a gun without ammo. Right now, the pilot group is very divided. Even though the majority of people on this board feel that the contract is the most important issue, there are many (I'm not saying the majority on the line, but there are many) that feel differently. There are many that feel more indifferent about the contract in order to gain growth.

Now, Me....I feel that BOTH are possible. The company is doing the best they can at keeping the wages down as long as possible. They are also trying to convince us that if we get a progressive contract, it will hinder our ability to compete with the contract carriers. I disagree with this position. Because all of our profits go directly to Delta INC., it is cheaper for Delta to use us when possible due to the fact that anything above and beyond the operating costs is essentially like taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other. When they use CHQ/SKWst, they must not only pay for there op costs but there profit as well. That is real money that is gone and I don't believe over a large scale, especially when we are talking about ATL and CVG, that CHQ or SKY could operate for cheaper in these hubs (when factoring in there profit). I firmly believe that this is why they currently do not operate any 70 seat jets for Delta. THIS IS A PROFITABLE PLANE for Delta and they want to retain as much of those profits as possible(I'm not attempting to get into the argument of where the new 70's will go; thats a whole other argument). Anyway, getting back to the point. I was not trying to suggest that we revolt and create large scale problems for the company by eronious write-ups and lack of customer service. I was simply suggesting that we follow procedure. I am not militant union. Trust me..I'm also not management like some have suggested. I am just a line pilot who wants to see this thing resolved so that I don't have to fly with a bunch of whiny people anymore.

Again, thanks for the input and for correcting me.