ASA: Growth or Contract?

[~~~^~~~]

The company is doing the best they can at keeping the wages down as long as possible. They are also trying to convince us that if we get a progressive contract, it will hinder our ability to compete with the contract carriers. I disagree with this position. Because all of our profits go directly to Delta INC., it is cheaper for Delta to use us when possible due to the fact that anything above and beyond the operating costs is essentially like taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other. When they use CHQ/SKWst, they must not only pay for there op costs but there profit as well. That is real money that is gone and I don't believe over a large scale, especially when we are talking about ATL and CVG, that CHQ or SKY could operate for cheaper in these hubs (when factoring in there profit).

I don't know about SKW, but CHQ runs on a margin so tight that it seemed unsustainable as the airplanes get older and crews attain more longevity. ASA and CHQ are more mature companies. Our crews have more longevity, our airplanes are older and our operations more developed. CHQ is still run from the airport operations building in Indy - with cardboard boxes everywhere and a mid 70's Soviet government building feel. CHQ knows that its youth ( young crews and airplanes ) are the only way to keep operating at below real cost structures. As a result, CHQ is one very tough competitor - they must have growth, or they will die. The alternative is what ACA did. When the costs exceed the code share you can not lose money on every flight and make it up in volume

The other angle of this is ALPA National's agenda. They do not want the sub culture of regionals to be able to out vote the major establishment. Simultaneously, the pilots at Major airlines do not want to see cost savings ( from their concessions ) allegedly used to support the purchase of RJs' that they do not fly. The best mutual solution is for these airplanes to be bought by someone else and flown by pilots who do not vote contrary to the powers that be within ALPA. ( CHQ is Teamsters )

ASA has sent their negotiating team into the perfect storm. ALPA ( by denying ASA pilots the ability to sign a deal with Delta ) has pretty much cut the wing bolts off the good CRJ-700.

There are too many variables to figure out if a sub-par contract would indeed result in any growth for ASA. Any deal for future growth could be undermined by ALPA's mainline agenda, competitive pay cuts at other carriers, the price of oil, or Delta's inability to secure additional financing.

We ASA pilots have no real negotiaing power because ALPA's agenda keeps us from having any scope. However, we can achieve many cost neutral improvements in scheduling and quality of life. Delta is not going to take a strike over things like a commuter clause, seniority based reserve call out & bidding. we have those issues won if we stick to our guns.

The money is another story. The second ASA's costs exceed CHQ's Delta has no economic reason to sustain our operation other than protecting their investment. ( and I think we are amazingly close, perhaps within $10 per block hour with CHQ potentially having an advantage because of the more efficient E145 & less longevity )

On the big question of money - it is a very personal decision. More than likely you need to figure out if it worth losing this job and this Company to achieve what you feel your job is worth? I will absolutely stand beside my MEC no matter how long it takes and even if it shuts down the airline - but - I have the luxury of another career that pays much better than ASA. Many pilots are similarly situated, but striking is like quitting your job. It is a hugely personal decision. Given what we know about the situation, we should be considering these things when we reply to ALPA's calls from the Wilson Polling Center.

 

[ifly4food]

The other angle of this is ALPA National's agenda. They do not want the sub culture of regionals to be able to out vote the major establishment. Simultaneously, the pilots at Major airlines do not want to see cost savings ( from their concessions ) allegedly used to support the purchase of RJs' that they do not fly. The best mutual solution is for these airplanes to be bought by someone else and flown by pilots who do not vote contrary to the powers that be within ALPA. ( CHQ is Teamsters )

I don't think you can back that statement up with any tangible proof.
Please produce such or retract.

ASA has sent their negotiating team into the perfect storm. ALPA ( by denying ASA pilots the ability to sign a deal with Delta ) has pretty much cut the wing bolts off the good CRJ-700.

Please elaborate.

There are too many variables to figure out if a sub-par contract would indeed result in any growth for ASA. Any deal for future growth could be undermined by ALPA's mainline agenda, competitive pay cuts at other carriers, the price of oil, or Delta's inability to secure additional financing.

Agreed. In fact, if the RFP was any indication, even a pay cut wouldn't guarantee growth, it would just lead to another pay cut. Growth will go to whoever Delta desires, regardless of whether we trip over each other in a race to the bottom. Let's resolve not to race and let the chips fall. That's what our and Comair's MECs decided in December 2003.

We ASA pilots have no real negotiaing power because ALPA's agenda keeps us from having any scope. However, we can achieve many cost neutral improvements in scheduling and quality of life. Delta is not going to take a strike over things like a commuter clause, seniority based reserve call out & bidding. we have those issues won if we stick to our guns.

The money is another story. The second ASA's costs exceed CHQ's Delta has no economic reason to sustain our operation other than protecting their investment. ( and I think we are amazingly close, perhaps within $10 per block hour with CHQ potentially having an advantage because of the more efficient E145 & less longevity )

Whoa! Don't give up just yet!

I'd say we have quite a bit of leverage now that we're going to own about 50% of the ATL operation. That would be a HUGE loss if we slow it down, much less strike.

And that has nothing to do with scope. It amazes me how you manage to turn every discussion into one on scope. You truly have a one track mind.

On the big question of money - it is a very personal decision. More than likely you need to figure out is it worth losing this job and this Company to achieve what you feel your job is worth? I will absolutely stand beside my MEC no matter how long it takes and even if it shuts down the airline - but - I have the luxury of another career that pays much better than ASA. Many pilots are similarly situated, but striking is like quitting your job. It is a hugely personal decision. Given what we know about the situation, we should be considering these things when we reply to ALPA's calls from the Wilson Polling Center.

I for one, would rather find other employment than continue to work for compensation that is less than my share of what I produce for the company. I won't whore myself out just so that I can tell everyone I'm a pilot. I think most ASA pilots agree.

Chuck Thibadeau's "Zero Net Gain" concept is unacceptable. We will make measureable improvements in all sections of this contract or it won't pass, plain and simple. There will always be naysayers, and this and other boards tends to inflate the influence of the vocal minority. The truth is that ASA pilots are pissed and are not going to settle. We will either get an industry leading contract, or ASA will cease to exist.

And yes, management does read and post on this board. Don't let your guard down nor underestimate the will and unity of this pilot group.

ASA management has now admitted to financially supporting RJDC (Nelson D, Captain's Leadership Class, 11/23). Maybe the "quid pro quo" will be RJDC supporters like "fins" working to undermine our contract and blame it on "ALPA's Evil Empire".

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,
Again, thanks for the input and for correcting me.

You're most welcome. However, I really wasn't trying to "correct" you. I was only trying to give a different perspective from an outsider. Sometimes it is easier to be objective about these things when one is not emotionally involved.

I very much want you all to be successful in your negotiations. Call it self-interest if you like. There is no doubt that we will be affected by whatever you all decide to do.

I do question some of the statements you made regarding the federal judge order to discontinue MX write-ups. I'm not calling you a liar, but I am fairly certain that court orders like that wouldn't hold water in an appeal process. In addition, attacking individual employees for following company mandated procedure would most likely crumble in appeal as well.

It pleases me that you question some of my statements. That is exactly what you should do. On the issue of "appeals" you may very well be correct in believing that the judge's ruling would not stand on appeal. However, you need to consider this .... who will make the appeal? The allegation is brought, by the company against the ALPA and certain individual pilots. ALPA defends itself vigoroulsy. In making its defense, ALPA argues that it is not in anyway responsible for the alleged activity, it has all resulted from the radical behavior of the pilot group, certain individual pilots, and contrary to the wishes and instructions of the ALPA. The judge rules against the alleged activity but not against ALPA. In his ruling he sites certain individuals and more importantly, rules that he will hold any pilot, deemed to be engaged in this "illegal" activity, in personal contempt of the ruling. Now who is going to appeal that? Certainly not ALPA for they have already been exculpated, which is what they wanted. Therefore, any pilot accused after the ruling must face incarceration for contempt of court and defend himself from a jail cell. Where will he get the money to fight the company's battery of lawyers?

Remember, you can't "appeal" something just because you don't "like" the decision. There has to be a legal basis for the appeal; some "error" on the part of the judge or the court. That's a sticky wicket. ALPA is interested in protecting itself from potential fines (like the one levied against the APA) and will leave you to hang in a heartbeat. If you ever read that particular judge's decision (in the APA case) most logical people would think he was looney and prejudiced. Nevertheless, the APA lost every appeal. Why did the APA defend their pilots? Because those pilots are 100% of the APA. ALPA is a different horse and represents dozens of different airlines, not just one. ALPA will defend itself but it won't defend you.

In ALPA's arguments in the CMR case, the ALPA lawyers made no effort whatever to disprove any of the company's allegations. In fact they virtually admitted them (even though they were false) and simply argued that "ALPA had nothing to do with it". They won and so did the company. The only losers were the pilots.

When the courts ruled that Airborne pilots were "required" to pick up open time, even though their contract said it was "voluntary" the Teamsters took it all the way to the S. Court and ultimately won. In similar situations ALPA almost always backs down. ALPA almost always appeals rulings that adversly affect the institution itself, but seldom takes that course in defense of its members. ALPA defends the ship, not the crew.

Unless you're prepared to fund your own appeal I wouldn't put much stock in expecting your union to do it for you. Life is not always what it seems and we have to look at these things without rose-colored lenses. To put it simply, there aint nobody in Herndon that's going to risk the union's fortunes in your defense. Keep in mind that your group is a very, very small portion of ALPA's interests. It can readily be sacrificed and it will be if that should be deemed necessary. Just my opinion.

As you clearly understand, the true power of the union is in unity. Without it, we are like a gun without ammo.

I agree with you. That was my point too. A President of ALPA (not the present one) once told me "You should never point a loaded gun at the Company's head unless you're prepared to pull the trigger." He was right. If you pull that trigger without complete unity, you'll be salughtered, even if the gun is loaded. If you're shooting blanks you shouldn't even pretend that you have a gun. History tells us that Custer's last stand was anything but heroic; it was stupid. So was the "Charge of the Light Brigade". History repeats itself when we don't learn from it.

Right now, the pilot group is very divided.Even though the majority of people on this board feel that the contract is the most important issue, there are many (I'm not saying the majority on the line, but there are many) that feel differently. There are many that feel more indifferent about the contract in order to gain growth.

Unfortunately, that is what I gathered from the posts I read. I'm sure you know much more from your direct contact. Work on the solidarity. It must be complete and if you can't achieve it you don't have much of a chance. You can't even think about a legal job action unless you are certain that 95% of the pilots support it fully. The company can "read" the pilot group just as well as you or I can. They listen to everything you have to say and should never be underestimated.

Please don't think I'm against making a stand for what you believe is right. That's not what I'm saying. I come from an airline that made such a stand and the solidarity surprised everyone, literally. It is worth fighting for what is right even when you don't get it all. Neverthless, you look pretty foolish when you start rushing up the hill, pause, look back and there's noone behind you.

Now, Me....I feel that BOTH are possible. The company is doing the best they can at keeping the wages down as long as possible. They are also trying to convince us that if we get a progressive contract, it will hinder our ability to compete with the contract carriers.

Don't let that frustrate or upset you. That's the Company's job. It is what they're supposed to do. As long as your needs (not your wants) are not unreasonable or unrealistic it doesn't matter what they say. Being able to judge between what is unrealistic and what is not is the key to reaching an equitable solution. The final outcome needs to be a win/win. That is not easy to achieve. The reason the process takes so long is that both parties are trying to figure out what is reasonable, what is realistic, and what is not. Especially the company. They need to know where you really stand. As long as many of you are standing in different places they are not likely to agree to anything.

You need to understand that you will not get a Christmas Tree, and they need to understand that you won't settle for scraps. You're both playing a "game" and it's the equivalent of Chess, Poker and Dice, all at the same time. Most line pilots have trouble dealing with that. It's not what were accustomed to in our everyday lives.
Continued

 

[surplus1]

Part 2

Because all of our profits go directly to Delta INC., it is cheaper for Delta to use us when possible due to the fact that anything above and beyond the operating costs is essentially like taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other.

That's partially true but not completely. Especially in the current situation in which the Company finds itself. How they got there can be debated, but it doesn't change the fact that they are there. Delta has a huge debt to repay and therefore the ability to borrow more money is very limited. Operationally, ASA and Comair may be actually "cheaper" than Chautauqua and both are "making money" for Delta. However, the way we are structured, Delta has to finance any new equipment that we acquire. When they go with CHQ or SKYW, those companies have to come up with the capital for new equipment, not Delta. I think that's a major factor in Delta's decisions. I also think that we, ASA & CMR, can't make up for that difference by lowering our pay. Just the same the Company has a strong arguement for farming out the future flying.

Sometimes it is better for us to focus on keeping what we already have than growing. That will test your unity for the "junior" pilots can only see "quick upgrades". Those same junior pilots tend to believe that the senior pilots will sacrifice them because they've already "got theirs". At the same time they fail to appreciate that concessions sacrifice the senior pilots, so that the juniors can get "growth". It pretty much boils down to whether or not you expect to stay where you are for a long time or you have dreams of the "quick upgrade" and moving on to another company. As long as the juniors see the seniors as "lifers" (in its derogatory context), you'll be divided amongst yourselves.

As long as you don't lose the jobs you already have, selling your souls for potential growth that is almost never guaranteed is, IMO, foolish over the long term. The "young" are often willing to give up their QOL for a few extra bucks and the promise of growth. That's because they are not convinced that they won't be flying for Delta mainline next month or anytime soon, or they would love to fly for JBlue because it has "big" airplanes. The more seasoned realize that more money glitters in the begining, but QOL once given up is almost impossible to recover. It is the job of your leadership to achieve balance between the two positions and get everybody on the same page.

I agree that the CR7 is a better and more profitable airframe. You may very well get more of them but that doesn't necessarily equate to "growth". I think it is more likely that the CR2 will be replaced by the CR7, long before there's a noticable increase in total airframes. That is also a form of "growth" when the compensation for the CR7 is greater than the CR2. When you do what SKYW did it amounts to a loss for the pilots, but a gain for the company.

I am just a line pilot who wants to see this thing resolved so that I don't have to fly with a bunch of whiny people anymore.

We would all like to see these things resolved quickly. That's the nature of pilots. However, it is not the nature of negotiations. The manipulation of the time-line is built into the Railway Labor Act. It's all based on the theory that the longer it takes, the more pliable the union will become and it gives management an upper hand from the start. The longer they can drag it out the more "reasonable" they believe you will become. The more frustrated you become, the more divided you will get and the more likely you will begin to "see things their way." The company has no "need" to settle the contract quickly they already know what they have and what it costs. It is you that wan't "more" 95% of the time.

The NMB has no interest whatever in the content of your contract. Their job and their only interest is to avoid a work stoppage. They will twist your arms a lot longer and a lot harder than even the company. They're not on your side. What they see as "realistic" is whatever will get an agreement and they don't care if you get the dirty end of the stick. The company is well aware of this.

Don't ask me what ALPA National thinks for you would not like my answer. Just look at the kinds of agreements they have been advocating an making at "regional" airlines and you'll have the answer.

Whatever you do, it is going to be done by ASA pilots alone. If you all get on the same page and stick together like glue, everything will come out OK in the end. Expect it to take a long time for it will. You must have solidarity and you must also have endurance. In collective bargaining there is nothing more virtuous than patience.

Best wishes.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Ifly4food:

Please refer to the Northwest Bridge / Investment Agreement dated October 21, 2004. In addition, you might refer to Chairman Mark McClain's comments in the Ziplines dated 18 October 2004. These are ALPA documents, printed with ALPA funds, endorsed by ALPA and available from your representational folks in Herndon, VA.

Take from these documents the following points:

1. NWA Pilots unilaterally decide who flies RJ-70's
2. NWA Pilots recieved a 15 million dollar credit for the RJ allowances ( thus using other ALPA member's flying as bargaining credit )
3. NWA can contract for additional 50-seat RJ flying-- provided that the aircraft are leased or owned by a non-NWA carrier

The third point is the most striking. MSA and PCL are now locked out of growth airplanes. ALPA states their reasoning for this restriction as to ensure that mainline cuts are not used to fund regional growth, but it also serves the purpose of limiting the resistance of MSA and PCL pilots. Less flying, fewer votes.

It concerns me greatly when I hear ( or read ) pilots like you, who I respect and appreciate, supporting ALPA's party line. Tom Wychor, MSA's MEC Chairman and an ALPA Bilateral Scope Comm. member, still parrots ALPA's "Brand Scope" while he sits and watches his pilots get excluded from growth airplanes. I earnestly hope to God the ASA MEC is not as misguided as Tom Wychor.

Any contribution from ASA's management to the RJDC would be illegal under the Railway Labor Act. Management can not interfere with the collective bargaining process like that. I'm guessing that the same people you are referring to continue to be ALPA members as well. It is my opinion that everyone should support the RJDC anyway - particularly the Delta pilots who have paid the highest price for ALPA's apartied scope policies. I may not like Chuck Giambusso, but if he wanted to support a good cause - fine by me.

We both see this ASA negotiation the same. It would be stupid to buy a promise ASA management can not deliver. But you must recognize that this whipsaw that undermines our negotiations is the exact whipsaw that ASA's MEC Chairman Bob Arnold warned ALPA National of four years ago.

So as a final source, I would like to refer you to the ASA MEC. I believed what Bob and Dave had to say in 2000 and nothing has changed. Every prediction they made has come true.

~~~^~~~

P.S. My pay would double while we are on strike. Not only can you count on my solidarity, I'll even send a couple catering trucks over with lunch like my friends did during the Comair strike. Nothing beats BBQ around a barrell!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Maybe the "quid pro quo" will be RJDC supporters like "fins" working to undermine our contract and blame it on "ALPA's Evil Empire".

You have got to be kidding. That is one low blow and I think you should retract that - before I start using photoshop to put you in bed between ( Deleted out of fear).

But seriously, how would destroying the ALPA wall that keeps us from achieving scope "undermine our contract." If it were up to me the next negotiating session would require that Delta management be present and that Delta's signature be at the bottom of the agreement. The RJDC is the best hope the ASA MEC has - if their goal is to represent the ASA pilots.

 

[ifly4food]

Fins, your take on the NWA agreement is pure spin. I'll give you one that it screws the XJ and PCL pilots, but those aren't growth aircraft, they're contingency aircraft, useable only if a major carrier shuts down and NWA wants to absorb their RJ assets.

I don't agree with your interpretation. They were not growth aircraft, but rather aircraft allowed if NWA moves to take over a stranded regional market when UAL or AAA go TU. They would use the former UAL or AAA regional.

You have got to be kidding. That is one low blow and I think you should retract that - before I start using photoshop to put you in bed between S.Y. and Goatboy.

But seriously, how would destroying the ALPA wall that keeps us from achieving scope "undermine our contract." If it were up to me the next negotiating session would require that Delta management be present and that Delta's signature be at the bottom of the agreement. The RJDC is the best hope the ASA MEC has - if their goal is to represent the ASA pilots.

I could use photoshop just as effectively! Let's not turn the Goat on, though!

I never said destroying the "ALPA wall" would undermine the contract. I said you're getting awfully close to telling ASA pilots to settle. That, I have a problem with. Even surplus 1 pointed out this display of disunity we have been presenting to management on this thread.

You and I agree that the "wall needs to be torn down". We just differ in our methods.

And illegal or not, Nelson did admit that in class. It's illegal for management to directly contribute, but is it illegal for management to launder the money through their lackeys who have a hand in two pies? And are on EI status, I may add.

I firmly believe that ASA, Comair, (and Delta) management are giving RJDC money in the name of their lackeys. They see RJDC as some sort of anti-ALPA and we know how much they hate ALPA. It should make your skin crawl (and your mind wonder) why management would want to support RJDC.

I'm really not going anti RJDC. I'm upset that the same management that is screwing us all is supporting you. That raises a huge red flag for me.

 

[Sinca3]

[/i][/b]

We would all like to see these things resolved quickly. That's the nature of pilots. However, it is not the nature of negotiations. The manipulation of the time-line is built into the Railway Labor Act. It's all based on the theory that the longer it takes, the more pliable the union will become and it gives management an upper hand from the start. The longer they can drag it out the more "reasonable" they believe you will become. The more frustrated you become, the more divided you will get and the more likely you will begin to "see things their way." The company has no "need" to settle the contract quickly they already know what they have and what it costs. It is you that wan't "more" 95% of the time.

Surplus1....don't you think it is more beneficial for the union to drag things out. I mean everyone seems to think the pilot group isn't unified yet. If we were to get really pissed at the lack of a new contract then we would be unified. Then and only then can we get what we want in a new contract. I'm not pro mgmnt, I just think this is how the union gets the troops rallied.
Just a thought.....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Let's not turn the Goat on, though!

Perhaps you are on to something....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812040902/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/002-0767616-8572833?v=glance

I will buy the book if you have the cajones to toss it on the table during a meeting.

 

[ifly4food]

Perhaps you are on to something....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812040902/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/002-0767616-8572833?v=glance

I will buy the book if you have the cajones to toss it on the table during a meeting.

LMAO!

Looks like a great christmas gift to give the MEC! Or at least the Grievance chairman. Baaaaaaaaaaaa!

 

[Dude]

News Flash..............we are never going to get what we want or even close. Mesaba came close to striking and got crap, Xjet got crap, Comair didn't get 89 days worth. B!tch and moan all you want, but they ain't givin' up a thing. Management doesn't have to. Too many schmucks that will ask retarded questions in RGT and stay after Ops awareness and demonstrate how eager they are to put up with this garbage. This sector of the industry stinks with guys that are willing to give up the farm for a new a/c, flow ups, merged lists, the opportunity to upgrade, or B.S. retirement. Speaking of retirement, who is willing to trust mgmt with theirs? 229 DAL guys weren't and neither was Skip. Solidarity, my a$$. Organized walk out or not, ain't gonna happen. Far too many guys with 3000 hours and a left seat job, just itchin' to keep their butt in that seat. "If I could only upgrade, it'll all be ok." If you do upgrade, you ain't movin' for a long time. But please, pound your chests as hard as you want. They only way to get better is to leave. I'll hold the "union line" as long as I'm here, but all the while knowing ALPA is no more interested in our QOL than our mgmt.


As you were.............

 

[tron4000]

News Flash..............we are never going to get what we want or even close.....Too many schmucks that will ask retarded questions in RGT and stay after Ops awareness and demonstrate how eager they are to put up with this garbage. This sector of the industry stinks with guys that are willing to give up the farm for a new a/c, flow ups, merged lists, the opportunity to upgrade, or B.S. retirement.....Organized walk out or not, ain't gonna happen. Far too many guys with 3000 hours and a left seat job, just itchin' to keep their butt in that seat. "If I could only upgrade, it'll all be ok." If you do upgrade, you ain't movin' for a long time. But please, pound your chests as hard as you want.

As you were.............

I agree. The sleeper problem at ASA that I see as FO are all the mid-30 yr old cappys I fly with that in their initial brief, go off about how they flew 2 days as Brasilia FO, then went left seat, then went left seat jet, and absolutely cant wait for larger equip on property for any wages. Oh yeah, and they always tell you their total time, and time in the left seat on the jet. If I hear another "sure would like for us to get those EMB170/190s" or "that 717 would be fun", im going to pull out the crash axe. There's quite a few of these guys, good luck selling the contract to them much less a strike, they're too enamoured with their 4th stripe to think big picture and realize that big jets for ASA wages is absurd. (Disclaimer-not all the CAs are like this).

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Yeah, it's a dump. Just accept the fact.

 

[CF34-3B1]

(Disclaimer-not all the CAs are like this).

Thank you

 

[~~~^~~~]

The sleeper problem at ASA that I see as FO are all the mid-30 yr old cappys I fly with that in their initial brief, go off about how they flew 2 days as Brasilia FO, then went left seat, then went left seat jet, and absolutely cant wait for larger equip on property for any wages. Oh yeah, and they always tell you their total time, and time in the left seat on the jet. ...im going to pull out the crash axe. There's quite a few of these guys, .... too enamoured with their 4th stripe to think big picture and realize that big jets for ASA wages is absurd. (Disclaimer-not all the CAs are like this).

Do they tell you where they did their flight training?

Don't worry - you'll have a bunch of ATR guys on line soon with 27 hours in the RJ, who talk real slow and ask for "props 100" when they get behind the airplane. But I think you will like flying with them.