ASA Getting 8 CRJ700, and Keeping 8 Additional

[WWEfan]

Comair's pay rates will be based in-part on ASA's current pay rates which are based on years of not being able to negotiate a thing. Comair will now go on strike twice while ASA has yet to even negotiate one.

Thanks for the help.

That hasnt been for lack of trying to negotiate one. When your company does not bargain in good faith and polotics can't get you a release from the NMB there isn't much we can do other than bend over. We did not and will not.

Myself and my ASA brothers and sisters have walked picket lines with the Comair pilots and have supported you in spite of the fact that you went behind our backs and negotiated concessions. How you can place blame on ASA for your plight is beyond me.

 

[starshipdrvr]

Nighttrain,

You have no clue, no I don't work for Southwest.

 

[bvt1151]

Here come the defensive attitudes.

Comair has not undercut ASA a single time. The pay freeze left Comair the second highest paid regional, with ASA nowhere in site. The huge pay cut that was never even ratified was still higher than ASA's current pay. Interestingly enough, every time management has approached us they have had ASA's pay in hand, and yet not a thing has been accomplished in ATL. I don't buy they "well we can't" crap, either. ASA is being manhandled by management and the pilots are content to sit back and say "well there's nothing we can do" because they're too afraid to stick their necks out and possibly lose some growth that has now come at the very expense of an inter-union pilot group.


This isn't all ASA's fault, but there's been absolutely no help. None. They're even encouraging the whip-saw by accepting aircraft from another ALPA carrier that Delta has openly admitted are being removed because pilot costs are too high. You just lowered your own value by accepting those aircraft because you've proven the whip-saw works. Comair's pay rates are now useless in your negotiations because you've proven that somebody will always do it for less. Without even realizing it, you've taken a pay cut for growth.

Yet, ironically ASA blames Comair for their problems. Not a single thing Comair has done has affected ASA, because ASA has not done a single thing to achieve results. Negotiate your contract. Make it higher than Comair. When that happens, you'll have earned the right to complain about the airline that has done the most for regional pay in the last 6 years.

Comair has issues, none of which have been helped by ASA's inability to negotiate, but none of which were caused by it, either. Chautauqua, Mesa, and worst, Skywest, are all beneficiaries of Comair's problems, just like ASA, and just like ASA, they complain when those benefits stop. Comair undercut nobody. Comair has been undercut by everybody, and has lost 30% of its jobs because of it. Now we're being forced to take pay cuts all based on everybody elses negotiated contracts.

I was recently asked if Comair pilots won the strike. I said no. Comair pilots lost, Comair lost, Delta lost. It was the Skywest, ASA, and Chautauqua pilots who won the Comair strike, and now they've got the nerve to blame the Comair pilots for not sacrificing more.

[/rant]

 

[Blucher]

Bvt,

I'm afraid most of us at ASA just can't buy into your version of reality, primarily because you leave out a few key points. First, I clearly remember getting a bag sticker from JC and co. that said "Comair pilots support ASA pilots in their right to a fair contract" (or something to that effect). It was less than 2 weeks after I got this sticker and a nice letter about how committed Comair pilots were to ASA bringing our contract up to and perhaps beyond your contract that I read in the paper that the Comair MEC had negotiated pay cuts with management. I must admit, that stung a bit. I also seem to remember a second concession that JC once again negotiated for the pilots, although this time he was smart enough to tie it to all other labor groups also taking a concession. In truth, you guys have been making more than ASA pilots all along. However, the reason for that is because the Comair flight attendants had/have more of a spine than JC and co. ever did. If you think you're frustrated about ASA's lack of progress in negotiating a new and industry leading contract, go talk to an ASA pilot. I'd say all of us (perhaps with the exception of LJ & JB) agree with that newspaper article in which Boyd said the only way to fix ASA's problems is to hose out the entire executive offices. Something we were all hoping would happen as soon as Jerry and his Skywest people saw what a circus ATL is under our management. Sadly, we're still waiting for that (although in truth, there was a nice round of lay-offs at our GO immediately following Skywest's first visit, it just didn't go deep enough).
What would have been really nice is if 'back in the day' we had merged the Comair and ASA lists and become one company, wholely owned by Delta and then worked on securing ALL regional flying for the Delta brand.
I wish you guys at Comair the best of luck, but think you are just fooling yourself if you try to blame your problems on 'the rest of the industry.' In my personal opinion, your pilot group's biggest problem goes by J.C.L. And if you don't believe me, just go ask any DAL pilot.

-Blucher

 

[bvt1151]

Did your feelings get hurt Blucher? We took not one single aircraft from ASA, nor one single aircraft that ASA could have gotten anyways. We kept our pay at the second highest (behind Horizon) and way above what you guys were even offering. The pay freeze has been nothing but an excuse to ASA pilots for not negotiating. It hasn't affected you in the very least. How could it, you're not even negotiating.

The fact of the matter is, nothing any other airline has done has affected your contract at all, because you haven't negotiated one. You're content sitting back and saying everything thats happening around you is making it more difficult, but that's bogus. Yet you've been a downward pressure on Comair's pay scales for 5 years (even the judge mentions ASA's lower pay scales as rationalization for a Comair pay cut), and you then reinforce the whipsaw by accepting Comair's aircraft. Aircraft that were removed because management could find cheaper pilots to fly them. You are the cheaper pilots. That helps you, and hurts us greatly. So now we've lost pay, pilots, and planes to our "brothers" at ASA.

Sorry you got your feelings hurt.

 

[sweptback]

We took not one single aircraft from ASA, nor one single aircraft that ASA could have gotten anyways.

You mean except for the aircraft that were transferred to Comair from ASA to meet the requirements of the pay freeze LOA you guys overwhelmingly approved.

 

[Blucher]

Bvt,

Yes, my feelings were hurt, as should all regional pilot's feelings been hurt. ASA and Comair dropped the ball in such a stunningly huge way that managements for years to come will be chuckling about it. How could 2 regional carriers flying the same equipment, owned by the same parent company, flying basically the same routes and part of the same "union" have screwed up so bad as to not stick together? It's truly sad, and I really do wish we had merged when we had the opportunity. Perhaps we will have learned from that and might someday work out something with our new kissin'-cousins over at Skywest. Time will tell.
Also, you might want to check your facts. ASA is currently negotiating. I believe the next sessions are scheduled for early Jan in CHS.
Do you really think that our management doesn't use your concessions (twice) as an example at our bargaining table?
If it makes you feel any better, I promise I will not fly any of those former Comair 700's.

-Blucher

 

[~~~^~~~]

BVT - Apparently you don't read much. ASA is a smaller airline than it was two years ago and is scheduled to get even smaller this year. Our ATR's are going away in 07 - that puts us at a loss of 5 airplanes in 07. (even with the Comair aircraft which might not happen - this transfer is management BS and often things that don't make sense, don't end up happening. They want a carrot to dangle for the ASA and Comair guys to fight over. In the mean time NWA has made a bid for Mesaba which will make Comair look better in this "monkey see, monkey do" world of Harvard jackarse airline management)

ASA's seniority list is down around 17% from where it was and we are not hiring to even cover the attrition right now.

If it makes you feel better to be angry at ASA pilots (instead of Delta's Management, all those guys wearing US Air style Uniforms under Chatauqua hats in CVG, or ALPA) go right ahead. Maybe you can sign some huge concessionary contract and get some airplanes - won't you be a happy boy then?

In the mean time, ASA will not cave. We have lost airplanes and not caved. You can accept the support we try to provide, or not. Either way, ASA's MEC has proven steadfast. But as long as you blame us and we get indignant about it the Harvard jackasses are winning.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

ASA's seniority list is down around 17% from where it was and we are not hiring to even cover the attrition right now.

Pretty sure we are hiring to cover attrition, plus the growth. 40 pilots per month, with the first large class Dec 27. Two smaller classes have already started, to begin IOE in January/February.

 

[79%N1]

When will there be some damn upgrades for attrition????? Even the last prelim, almost all the awards were just Captains moving around seats.

 

[Morning Wood]

What ASA is doing is bargaining for a contract that doesn't sellout its SKYW or Comair brothers and sisters.

You listen to too many flamers on this board. The majority of ASA pilots don't want to grow at anyone else's expense. We are PROVING that by not bending over for growth.

ASA pilots are bargaining (or should be) for what is best for ASA pilots. I hardly think United's pilots (or Delta, or Northwest or anyone else) cares about anything but negotiating for their self preservation.

 

[crjskipper]

blucher - how are you not going to fly the comair 700s?

did you refuse to fly the 100s during the strike?

if you refuse - pretty sure you will get fired

 

[49W]

blucher - how are you not going to fly the comair 700s?

did you refuse to fly the 100s during the strike?

if you refuse - pretty sure you will get fired

Easy, just don't bid the 700.

 

[Blucher]

49W hit the nail on the head, that is one easy way to do it. And in answer to your question CRJSkipper, no, I did not fly any of the Comair 100's either. Also, it would seem to me that as long as you have a valid reason for refusing an aircraft, as a captain, that is your prerogative, hence the 4th stripe.

-Blucher

 

[say again]

Things just don't seem to be getting any better then when I left years ago!! Good luck to all you guys. Everyone deserves so much better and i hope one day it happens. I miss my airline days, but cant seem to convince myself to come back yet.

 

[goahead]

Actually according to our union we are hiring 180 folks by March 07

 

[Speedtape]

All,

Just for the record, no airplanes have been transferred from Comair, yet! And, there is a good chance that none will be if a consensual agreement is reached the last week of January. So--hold the venom and spit until you see the planes on the ramp!

You guys are doing exactly what these mgmt. tools want you to do--fight like cats in a barrel! Stop it! These different airline mgmt. groups are all working in concert to drive costs down that affects us all. They are playing the game better than we are. The tide has to change but spewing venom at each other is counterproductive!

The best course of action at this point is to support the Comair pilots in whatever decision and actions they take in the coming weeks. Their fate is our fate! It's time to turn the tide on the opportunists mgmt. pukes that would take your last dime--just for the fun of it!

 

[ASADriver]

All,

Just for the record, no airplanes have been transferred from Comair, yet! And, there is a good chance that none will be if a consensual agreement is reached the last week of January. So--hold the venom and spit until you see the planes on the ramp!

Just for the record, the first two are supposed to go into service in mid Jan. out of CVG. The last week of Jan. will be a little late. I think they are coming here.

 

[Papa Woody]

When will there be some dang upgrades for attrition????? Even the last prelim, almost all the awards were just Captains moving around seats.

That is correct....ASA is shrinking, and only hiring to cover the overwhelming rate of F/O attrition, which is exceeding management's planned shrinkage rate.

The "16 new airplanes in 2007" spin by management is an evil distortion of the truth. By exploiting the Stockholm Syndrome, they expect the stupid pilots to giggle with glee as we continue the plunge. It is a tactic aimed only at saving the huge cost of training, since pilots are leaving in record numbers.

Captain attrition is much lower, and there have been NO "new" captain upgrades in over a year. That rate of attrition matches the planned shrinkage of the airline.

The truth is ASA will lose 5-8 airplanes in 2007, yet still needs new F/O's to cover attrition.

I don't believe there will be any new captain awards in 2007, as 4 net gain CR700's, even if we do get them, will easily be covered by the displaced SLC crews.

 

[79%N1]

Exactly my belief....and fear. While they make this announcement like some glimmer of great news, ASA will see no upgrades whatsoever last year or next, while Skywest will probably have 200-300 or maybe more!