ASA Concessions!!!

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

They already know where these planes are going. This is just an end run for our contracts. I just found out that the 8 700's for next year are coming to us, even though we did not take concessions. Those were part of the carrot. They were mentioned along with the other jets every time they talked about it. This is a game and a person would be a fool to play.

 

[EV120]

General.

I think that is what the customer wants as well. Reliable, comfortable, convenient, service, with a few amenities for traveling without the BIG seat.

I would personally rather see all 45 of these aircraft to be 700's, on our certificate, flown by mainline pilots. Never gonna happen, but it would be nice for all.

BTW to all that say that a pay freeze is not a concession...

definition: 1)the act of conceding, granting, or yielding.
concede: 1)to yield or grant
we would be doing most of these to agree to this proposal.

 

[sleepy]

Listen some of you. Just because we agree to the concessions, doesn't mean that we will get any of these aircraft (if they even exist)!

 

[Palerider957]

"ASA is one of the best managed and most profitable regional airlines in the world, and offers team members competitive compensation, excellent benefits (including worldwide travel privileges) and opportunities for advancement in a team oriented environment."

This quote was taken directly from the ASA recruiting page, from flyasa.com.

Anyone care to comment??

 

[N2264J]

I disagree

Like it or not, ASA pilots have virtually no power to bargain with.

Don't sell yourself short.

The trick will be getting released by the NMB but if you do - can Delta afford to have over 100 airplanes taken out of service?

"Diluting the hub" with other portfolio carriers is a sham management hopes you buy in to.

Expect the transfer of aircraft and flying. They did that to Comair. They threatened us with Mesa in Cincinnati. But at what cost to the company? Don't drink the kool aid. 100 airplanes is 100 airplanes. Make them eat their threats.

 

[wms]

At the last union meeting in DFW they said don't expect a new contract for 18 months. Add the 10 month break the company wants and that's 28 months. I KNOW it's not concessions, but it's almost 2 1/2 years of the status quo. The economy is firing up and in the spring we'll be negotiating pay, etc. The company knows it will have to give on pay and QOL sooner or later and they would rather it be later. That's why they haven't sped things up to take advantage of the economy. Read the minutes on the ALPA site and the company has stalled and delayed through the whole process, and the pace hasn't picked up since SY left like some thought it would.

Mgmt wants the company to grow just like we do, that's why they're mgmt, it's in their blood. I can't believe ASA/CA mgmt like seeing our potential going to the lowest bidder. They can work with DAL without selling us out while they don't kick in a little themselves. ASA has already said "no" to new bases, so where would the jets go. They could get an agreement from us and then say they didn't like what bases DAL offered.

If there is someone who would sell themselves out for a few jets let them. If they come to ASA we can put some furloughees to work. If they go CHQ or Mesa I hope it includes J4J ( I can't believe I said that).

What if we agree and DAL sends the jets elsewhere saying ASA didn't do enough. Then we're in big trouble. At the minimum any agreement would have to include a guarantee from DAL that we WILL get the jets, along with retro, plus. Not just that we can have the opportunity throw our hats in the ring. And if we don't get the jets, the whole deal is off.

 

[ASApuppy]

Where does the assumption come from that we we agree to a contract extension that our negotiations will continue. Friends, if we agree to an extension and exit from Section 6 negotiations, that's it for negotiations. The company will have no obligation to continue to negotiate a current contract. When did we start negotiations? After the amendable date. We will throw away the last year of work and start over again in another year. That will make the next contract signing in the 2007 era. All this for "a chance to bid". No thanks!

ASA and Comair make more money than any other DCI carrier. You guys need to take your focus off of pilot salaries as to the only factor in making a profit. DAL is going to sell a seat for the same price whether or not ASA, Comair, or Skywest fly the route (and there are several routes where this does happen). They have to because UAL and AA and whoever else sell for the relative same price. But, the big difference is Skywest et. al. have their own shareholders that are demanding and receiving profits. These profits are profits that DAL is willing to give up in order to maintain their belief that this whipsaw will pay them dividends in the end. Don't you find it ironic that DAL can turn a couple hundred million dollar operating profit for a quater into a loss and then blame the labor unions.

GET REAL!

 

[rjcap]

At the last union meeting in DFW they said don't expect a new contract for 18 months. Add the 10 month break the company wants and that's 28 months.

I disagree.

in approximately 9 months, with no real headway on the new contract, we will be taking a strike vote. The company will not be able to proceed with the status quo for 18 - 28 months. We will strike well before that.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Why would anyone think that working without a contract would be worth a few airplanes? A few new upgrades, a few more lines to choose from. Big whoop! Unbelievable- I think Comair set precedent on this one. I vote no.

 

[captainv]

Palerider,

i thought this too, but then a former CHQ pilot who's now at Comair mentioned that CHQ could have access to a similar number of ERJs. DCI could just sell the CRJs to someone else and let CHQ get the ERJs instead...

>I'm just glad Chihuahua doesn't fly the CRJ, otherwise they would be chomping at the bit to get all of those planes. The training/maint. costs probably puts them a little behind.

 

[surplus1]

Wasn't it supposed to be 80 + aircraft that Delta offered Comair in exchange for concessions? How come they're only offering ASA 45 aircraft? I didn't take long for the "growth" airframes to be cut by almost 50% did it?

Just think guys, if you agree, you will get 30 do-jets and 15 CL-65/200?? Will you still get the CL-65/700s already scheduled or are those included in the "deal".

Who will guarantee that you get ANY airframes? Will it be ASA or DAL?

Let's see, if it takes another 18 months (somebody said that) for you to negotiate, how long will it be before the NMB gives you a release? What is the amendable date of the current CMR contract? Maybe we might both be negotiating at the same time?

And the DAL amendable date is when? That will change though since the DAL guys want a 2-year extension in exchange for the concessions, so their new amendable date would be 2007, plus 3 years of negotiations = 2010 before a new contract at DAL mainline. (Since GWB will be gone by then and we'll be 2 years into the Hillary administration - they would be able to strike and get back to C2K pay scales?).

Maybe we should all (ASA/CMR) just agree to a 16 year Eagle type deal with the compensation indexed to the lowest bidder, in which case they might promise 150 "growth" RJs. (Bet Chautauqua couldn't match that, he!! not even SKYW could beat that deal.) Combine that with a 25% cut at the mainline and the Company will rush to profitability --- just in time to vote another 100 - 200 million in executive bonuses and benefits.

Not to worry though, it will mean lots of captain slots for the 2-year guys, who will then get 1000 hrs PIC and be ready for the big bucks at the mainline(s), who by then will have recalled all 8,000 furloughees and be hiring anybody with a license in droves (at Spirit pay rates).

If y'all vote "yes" to that CMR will have to join the party and we can all be "one happy family" again. Ain't life wonderful?

 

[doer42]

I do not post much here but here me. Allievating a company from sec 6 is a huge deal. To allow a company out of sec 6 negotiations under USC allows that company to file with the SEC as such. They, the compay, do not have to reveal a fact that would would impact possible earnrings. And Wall steet could report that a potential strike is no longer eminate and that EPS would no longer be impacted by such. A 10 report requires that an impact on such would state as much. A retro pay requires but at note on that report , but a labor union dispute, realized or not requires much more. This drives the EPS forcast by WS, which ultimalty drives MGT from above. If DAL could report in a 10 report that no pending issures, ie potential strike, the stock price would increase. Good for stockholders and Mangement all except us the people left holding the bag. Correct me if I am wrong Gen Lee.

 

[alitalia]

30 Do-Jets + 15 CR7's = 45 aircraft.

Think about it.


The 8 CR7's that CMR was already scheduled to receive in '04 were included in the "reward" for taking concessions. Didn't take concessions, still getting the 8 CR7's anyways.

Think about it folks. This is nothing but a big mgmt "magic trick". Don't be sucked in.

 

[Medeco]

15 Do-Jets + 15 CR7's = 45 aircraft.

Think about it.


The 8 CR7's that CMR was already scheduled to receive in '04 were included in the "reward" for taking concessions. Didn't take concessions, still getting the 8 CR7's anyways.

Think about it folks. This is nothing but a big mgmt "magic trick". Don't be sucked in.

I'm sorry, I just woke up , and I am trying real hard to think about it, but somehow 15 + 15 just does not add up to 45.

HmMMMM.

SB was asked if this included the 328's and he said no, you guys have got to think a bit more rational here.

I do not want this deal as it is currently known, but I dont buy into all the conspiracy theories either.

It is real simple to me, we either get some kind a written guarantee on a specific number of aircraft or we dont do it. Along with a good retro pay, which could be argued for years.

Medeco

hmmm 15 + 15= 45, I'm trying, I really am.

 

[alitalia]

sorry about the typo...

It's been corrected now. Guess I was fixated on 15...perhaps that will be tonight's lucky lottery number...

PS...sorry if it gave you a headache trying to think so soon after waking up!

 

[dadawgs]

When does this decision have to be made by?

 

[flyboy24]

45 ghost jets

The fact is there are no facts to this bait trap management tactic. If we were guranteed a number of airplanes with the retro pay guranteed I might be in. So we could stop our current contract and make a small contract for retro pay and delivery of aircraft. DCI is going to place the airplanes in profitable areas not necessarily the lowest bidder. With all the expansion is Salt Lake it sure seems sky west might get most of the "45 jets". It seems fishy because I thought after our orders of the 70's next year DCI would soon reach max aircraft from the scope. I'm a junior f.o. and would love to move fast. However I don't believe mangagment has thought about the facts they simply were fishing trying to get the pilots to bite on something that sounds good on paper but has no substance yet.

 

[DDpaysoff]

Re: 45 ghost jets

However I don't believe mangagment has thought about the facts they simply were fishing trying to get the pilots to bite on something that sounds good on paper but has no substance yet.

You're right mgmt is just saying if it worked at chautaqua and mese, let's see if it works here. They already know where those jets are going. "Portfolio Fred", will stand by his nickname and distribute the jets somewhat evenly just like everything else. Only question is who has to fly DO-jet?

 

[Beavis]

Lets face it fellow ASA and Comair pilots. We are a different type of pilot group for many reasons. We will not roll over or fall for DAL's "tricks" or strong arming. However, I believe that means the end of all growth for us both. In fact, I think recent history - or at least the new strategy regarding wholly owned regional subsidaries - shows that we could be continually stagnant or downsized in the future. (See Allegheny/Piedmont) The future looks much brighter for Skywest, Chautauqua and god help us all Mesa! This is the shift in thinking now. (See USAIR, United, Northwest) At ASA we have 100+ RJ's, with only like 15 more orders, and about 18 ATR's. I think this will be about it for us, in fact I foresee the ATR's eventually going away and being replaced by somebody elses RJ's. (See ASA's EMB120's/CHQ's EMB135's) DAL is "right-sizing" us, while expanding their portfolio. IMHO, in a few years time Comair/ASA will be the minority carriers. You just cannot compete cost-wise with the portfolio carriers. Comair is the Delta of Regionals, ASA the American pre-concessions. Mesa/CHQ/Skywest are the Southwests, Airtrans, Jetblues, America Wests....you get the picture, the LCC's of the regionals. And just the Majors are finding it less profitable if not impossible to compete with the LCC's - so will we. To go backwards is almost out of the question, as we dont want to enter the starting gate in the race to the bottom. It seems at ASA/Comair we put a higher value on the job of Regional pilot than do are contemporaries at Mesa, etc... But we cannot expect the next round of regioal growth at DCI. It simply make no business sense. These companies are just plain much cheaper for many reasons. So, as an FO at ASA, I suppose I can expect a 6-7 year upgrade time. All I can hope for is that FO pay is duely addressed in the next contract. Nobody took care of FO's in the contracts of the later 90's because upgrades were so fast. We need to fight against that now, and make our pay and QOL issues as good as we can, and settle in for the long haul.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Beavis. While I may disagree with your view, I do so hoping I am right, not knowing. My view is much diff. than yours.

I feel this is all a con job, and they are doing it because they can. I do not think they make more money with a cl-65 when operated by a contract carrier versus when operated by us.

They pay a fee to us just like they pay it to the contractors. The diff. is they get it all back when they pay it to us.

The 8 700's we are getting next year were a part of the carrot they hung in front of us. We were told they needed concessions so they could "firm them up". No cocessions and guess what? We are getting them any way. Skywest pilots will whore themselves out at 50 seat rates to fly them. Why are they all not going to Skywest?


Another thing fishy is the fact that we have recieved, what, 60 jets the last two years. Why was no mention of "bidding" brought up for those jets? Why were we not ask to "bid" and take concessions for the MCO flying ?


We were told the reason Shi taco was taking MCO was because they have 37 seat airplanes and they fit the market. They gave us all a route map of what they were going to do out of MCO. They never made any mention of the 50 and 37 seaters that you see in DFW. These people cannot be trusted. You cannot take what they say as any thing close to the truth. Certainly not when it comes to concessions.