ASA Concessions!!!

[sleepy]

While I agree that going to Mesa wages & contract is out of the question, I dont think that is where this is going. Here is our dilemma at Comair/ASA. We simply cost DAL more than any other contract carrier, whether they be CHQ, Mesa, TSA, Pinnacle,or whomever. This means in the new economics and corporate culture of the regional airlins (see Usair/UAL), contracting out to the lowest bidder wins - FROM NOW ON! This essentially means no further growth for ASA/Comair, and since neither of us have effective scope protection for ourselves, this could mean drastic downsizing in the future! So, while we stand tall, proudly pounding our chests we may lose sight of what is happening around us! You wont hear the same thoughts echoed from Skywest, Chat, or god help us all Mesa when the time comes. Does this make us stronger, prouder men who fight and die on our feet instead of live on our knees? Maybe so. However, where are we going as a group? Is DAL blowing smoke that they need cost savings from DCI cariers? I dont know. But going on as is puts us in serious peril, job growth/security wise. Now I want to make as much money as I can --- and equally or more importantly have the best work rules/QOL as I can. But does being a 7 year FO for $34-36/hr put me there? No. If I could upgrade in 3-4 years and make $50+ offer me that. Sure. Why would a more senior captain stand so firm on $60/hr instead of $59 to ensure the future of his company, therefore his job? If we could get reasonable assurances of the growth as well as improvements elsewhere to our working conditions.... isnt that worth it? If not, we'll just sit idly by, proudly watching (Insert contract company) take over. I'm proud to take a stand too, and I admire Comair for their stands/strike to raise their bar. But what will ultimately happen to us? Cant we both get together, talk to DAL about lowering some costs in exchange for some scope, like 100% of DCI flying over time?? Isnt that worth a price freeze or 1 buck an hour in the short term for all of the long term gains it could bring?

No that is not correct. ASA and CMR have the lowest published CASM in the portofolio. Lower than Skywest or ACA. DAL makes more money when ASA and CMR do the flying. They keep all of the profits (around $32 million per quarter, per airline). Are your aircraft full. Mine have been for the past year or so. The econcomy is turning around. There is already a shortage of seats available for this holiday season. Ticket prices are going to go up, and so are profits.

It would be stupid to freeze our contract talks for aircraft that may or may not arrive. If DAL gives them to MESA or Chit, then they will lose money in the long run. That is their problem. They want us to take the aircraft, but have to save face. Call their bluff.

 

[Palerider957]

Think about the other issues that would be on hold also. More abuse from scheduling without better work rules. More of these sub-standard reserve rules, etc. All kinds of improvements we've been looking forward to will be on hold. I want these issues settled ASAP. 10 additional months of the status quo is unbearable.

One pilot group caved to a profitable company and now we're all being low-balled. It's out of control.

Dam.n you read my mind before I could post........I agree 100%

 

[Palerider957]

Earlier comments about getting growth in exchange for concessions (make no mistake a pay freeze is a concession), are short-sighted at best. Where is it that you all want to go?? DAL/UAL/etc, etc.

Airtran, and JB are only going to hire so many, then they will slow their growth. None of us are going anywhere anytime soon, we really need to make the best of our present positions. This includes hardened contract negotiations and standing up for ourselves.

An earlier poster hit it on the head, if DAL needs us to have and operate more RJ's then we will--if not we won't. Concessions are simply icing on the cake for management to show the share holders. I think ASA is pretty much done growing in ATL, the growth will be out of DFW and I'm not sure how much more of that there is to be had.

We've had a tremendous amount of growth in the past few years, I wouldn't be surprised to see it slowly wind down, no matter what the economic environment.

My greatest fear is that the growth mongers will sell us all out--All domestic flying will be done by Mesa (for $15.00/hr) and all Intl. done my mainline---but that's OK, because, "hey, we're growing..."

 

[wms]

ASA and CMR have the lowest published CASM in the portofolio

And it would be even lower if we merged. DAL's objective is not cost, it's getting the upper hand on labor.

If they would just realize that they don't have to push us around to get us to work wit them we would all work together to make this the best airline. But instead they would rather alienate us to inflate their own egos.

 

[rjcap]

If ASA management wants to bid on these imaginary aircraft, then they can do it right now

This is all a bunch of crap from mgmt. Just tell Leo and Skippy that they can take their phantom 45 planes and let Mesa fly them.. In the meantime ASA can move closer to a strike.

The degraded pilot moral is not from lack of growth but from the same old crap that we deal with day after day at this company.

 

[~~~^~~~]

A big AMEN RJ Cap

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Hopefully the MEC doesn't let this go to a vote and just says no like CA did. I fear the junior guys would vote yes just because they think it would mean movement, which will come anyway.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Regardless of how you feel about this issue, and regardless of how I feel about this issue (I think it's a sucker's bet personally and don't see how anyone would go for it), it is something that needs to be decided by the ENTIRE pilot group. The junior people at ASA have just as much say-so as you and I do. Don't forget that it's their airline too. When it's all said and done, we need to do what the majority of the pilot group thinks is best. Falling into the junior/senior trap is not going to help anything.

 

[rjcap]

The only rationalization for taking concessions or whatever is growth. While I realize growth enables FO's to move to the Captains chair and increase compensation it also results in a decrease in QOL issues due to being a new CPT on the bottom of the seniority list.

If you look at the ASA CPT's seniority list you will find that the CPT slots go significantly junior to the number of FO's who could upgrade but choose NOT TO because of QOL issues as a new CPT.

My point is there are plenty of upgrade opportunities available but pilots don't take them.. Its not an issue of growth but more of an issue of QOL and committment to being on reserve as a junior CPT. You have to decide if you want to be a CPT or if you want QOL.

ABSOLUTELY NO CONCESSIONS OR CONTRACT EXTENSIONS.

FREDDY B if you want to be a pimp then go pimp out your wife and kids.

 

[sleepy]

Right on Brother!


And let me add that this whole bidding thing by DCI is a ruse. They have most likely already decided to send the aircraft to MESA or Chit. They (being evil MBA management bean counters) are just messing with labour. Why, because they can.

 

[EV120]

FmrFreightDog

You are correct. this does need to be decided by the whole work group.

While I may not be as eloquent as others on the board, I have just been trying to explain that this is nothing more than more whipsawing by mgmt.
If they wanted the aircraft, they can make a competitive bid with our current costs. A ten month, or more, freeze will really not do much to affect the operating costs of these aircraft.

If they really want to cut costs, do like CHQ does, use others gates, gate agents, and rampers. That would reduce costs a whole bunch.

You ae all correct. We need all of the information. Which they really have not given us. I doubt they ever will. They just want to see if we will bite at the carrot or not.

The best thing everyone can do is call your reps, as I did immediately after I learned of this, and try and get some details as to how this will affect us.

Our MEC will not be meeting to disuss this for another couple of weeks...12-02 I think. We still have time to get they facts.

my 2 pesos

 

[EV120]

I forgot to add...

I agree with General, things are getting better. Slowly, but they are moving in the right direction. Why should we give them economic relief when times are improving?

We need to just stay the course with negotiations, that will be relief enough for 12-18 months.

BTW General...
What is you take on the NEW idea of running all coach in MCI and HOU. Personally I think the customer will like it, and it will lure some of the higher yield pax back. Seems like the Song ideas are starting to transfer over.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

45 aircraft plus a contract now. I'll vote for that.

 

[EV120]

Thats the only problem. They want they current contract, which is most ways is not acceptable anymore.

However all 45 and a new agreement with all qol improvement we are looking for, and pay of course. Gotta be a little greedy

 

[wms]

I couldn't disagree with you more. Regardless of how you feel about this issue, and regardless of how I feel about this issue (I think it's a sucker's bet personally and don't see how anyone would go for it), it is something that needs to be decided by the ENTIRE pilot group. The junior people at ASA have just as much say-so as you and I do. Don't forget that it's their airline too. When it's all said and done, we need to do what the majority of the pilot group thinks is best. Falling into the junior/senior trap is not going to help anything.

I would hope the MEC would send a message that this proposal is so ludicrous that we're not even going to consider it. Not that junior people don't have a vote, but that this is too patronizing to even be seriously considered. I'm sorry if I sent the wrong message earlier.

If they want us to work with them then they can treat us with a little more respect and include us in the plan. If they need us to fly 45 more jets, they can pay us fairly to do it. If they want to exploit someone then they can give those jets to a carrier that doesn't have the self respect to expect fair pay and QOL.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Did I miss something?

The e-mail that I got said nothing of concessions. It was a PROPOSAL and nothing more. Freeze current pay for 10 months to secure 45 aircraft and recieve some sort of retro pay. Does not sound like concessions to me. Sure there are no guarantees with this PROPOSAL, so it is our MEC's resonsibility to ensure that there are provisions associated with this PROPOSAL (called counter proposal) that are in our best interests (i.e. in the event the aircraft are not delivered).

E-120 is absolutely correct on this one. A 10 month extension is not concessions, it is actually an advantage to be able to negotiate in a more rewarding economic environment. It could be very dangerous to try and negotiate pay and QOL issues in a not quite recovered economy. Additionally, it has been mentioned by several individuals that our contract negotiations will at least go on well past the 10 month freeze. Since pay and workrules will not change anyway, what is the big deal here. In the event that Delta does not deliver on the 45 aircraft, then that is all the more fuel for the fire for self help actions.

I see this PROPOSAL as nothing more than an assurance to Delta that we will not dramatically increase ASA's cost burden within a certain period of time so that financing can be accomplished. Our debt ratios have to be at certain levels before financing can be procured. Once financing has been completed, then we can renegotiate pay, etc. I for one want to hear what they have to say. Running arroung with the "Sky is falling" mentality helps no one. Wait and see what comes out of this. Our MEC is obviously not going to sign any form of one sided blind agreement, so get the facts and then make your decisions.

 

[FishandFly]

I'm certainly new to airline economics, but I'm confused with all the dismay building if this would solely be a pay freeze and retro pay.

Why would many of you rather hold on to minor growth rather than be assured that your company will take on a much greater roll in its owner's plan?

Isn't it a benefit that there will be so many new captain slots?

I agree that your year 1 FO pay sucks, but cpt pay is great. Why not accelerate the upgrade process?

Please know that a big ole IMHO applies to all this.

 

[bailout]

Who was supposed to get these emails? All ASA pilots, or just a selected few? or What?

 

[Palerider957]

45 aircraft plus a contract now. I'll vote for that.

You are KILLING me.....do you really think DAL will just cough up 45 planes for ASA????

I would be amazed if we saw more than 4-5. I'm willing to bet that the marjority will go to Skywest (non-union and willing to take concessions)--this would allow DAL to greatly expand out West. Also, Mesa--the ULTIMATE pushovers with 23 year old pilots who will do ANYTHING for growth will kill for any of these planes.

I'm just glad Chihuahua doesn't fly the CRJ, otherwise they would be chomping at the bit to get all of those planes. The training/maint. costs probably puts them a little behind.

One other thought, it wouldn't surprise me if 30 of those planes were the DO-328's from ACA.---hmmm if that is the case, CHQ and Mesa probably can expect to see a good amount of these planes.

This sucks....

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Who was supposed to get these emails? All ASA pilots, or just a selected few? or What?

Well, if you didn't come to the secret meeting in the Awesome Service Room (your first task being to actually FIND the Awesome Service Room) then you didn't get the secret knock. No secret knock, no email. Sorry dude, you missed out.

Seriously though, check under personal settings on the ALPA site and make sure they have your correct email.

 

[General Lee]

EV120,

I think the DL 737-800s with all business class is an interesting step (we had the planes from the Shuttle anyways), and it is going after the people we wanted anyways--the business traveller. As the economy grows again, the business travellers will fly more, and not everyone wants a super low fare on a cramped airplane. I think they were targeting the people we wanted anyways---which is good. Let's hope it works. Atleast they are trying something new.


Palerider, TIM47SIP, etc,

I don't think you will get many of those 45 RJs. I would make sure that you "got it in writing" first before agreeing to that. Chataqua and others have the money now to buy those RJs, and Delta knows that. Things are getting better, and Delta wants to get concessions NOW. Please watch your backs, and I do hope that you guys at ASA eventually get those new airplanes.(If they actually exist)

Bye Bye--General Lee