ASA and glass time?

[John Pennekamp]

No, the tiki bar is closed for the season.

http://www.kingswharf.com/

This is more of an indoor, traditional bar. There is a restaurant attached with much more attractive prices than the Palace Westin. It is part of the same complex, however.

Sweet. I'll check it out.

 

[JoeMerchant]

At what point do you stop pretending as if his ratings were just handed to him? Does the fact that some of the newer, low time pilots jump from a 172 to an RJ make you angry? If I had the opportunity to go to an RJ at 300 hours I would have jumped on it. Sadly, I did not. I just think a little faith in the future of aviation would be appreciated. It is up to you regional captains to make sure these green FO's become the Aviators they should be. It may not be what you want to do, but when the company puts an FO with less than 1000 hours in the cockpit, there is no way around it.

1. It is clear that some of these ratings were handed out at the puppy farms..... sorry if the truth hurts, but from the left seat I am absolutely amazed at what I am seeing.... It is both a collective bargaining issue and a safety issue.....

2. The HE!! it is my job to teach a 121 FO how to fly an airplane..... It is my job to transport people safely.... mainly me..... and to not get violated.... This is not a flight school.... If you can't fly, then you can talk on the radio and you be written up for not being able to fly... If you can't fly, then you should consider that before you take advantage of the current situation....

 

[John Pennekamp]

1. It is clear that some of these ratings were handed out at the puppy farms..... sorry if the truth hurts, but from the left seat I am absolutely amazed at what I am seeing.... It is both a collective bargaining issue and a safety issue.....

2. The HE!! it is my job to teach a 121 FO how to fly an airplane..... It is my job to transport people safely.... mainly me..... and to not get violated.... This is not a flight school.... If you can't fly, then you can talk on the radio and you be written up for not being able to fly... If you can't fly, then you should consider that before you take advantage of the current situation....

I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with Joe on this one. It's not my job to teach someone how to fly. It is my job to teach someone how to be a good captain at ASA. But they must possess a basic foundation of skills before they arrive. This simply isn't happening.

I've had new hires that CAN NOT fly a visual approach. I had a new hire try to turn the wrong way on the localizer in ATL. I've been 100% single pilot when a newhire froze up on me. This is scary stuff to encounter at a 121 airline.

I don't expect my newhire FO to fly like a veteran, but I do expect him/her to have some basic skills. I'm not seeing it lately, and I blame the industry for allowing the standards to become too low.

 

[CFI2766]

1. It is clear that some of these ratings were handed out at the puppy farms..... sorry if the truth hurts, but from the left seat I am absolutely amazed at what I am seeing.... It is both a collective bargaining issue and a safety issue.....

2. The HE!! it is my job to teach a 121 FO how to fly an airplane..... It is my job to transport people safely.... mainly me..... and to not get violated.... This is not a flight school.... If you can't fly, then you can talk on the radio and you be written up for not being able to fly... If you can't fly, then you should consider that before you take advantage of the current situation....

It is not the job of the regional airline captain to teach the new folks how to fly. Share some things that they've learned along the way, yes. To teach someone who had their ratings pencil-whipped basic VFR and IFR airmanship, however, is not what they are paid to do. The training department folks are paid good money to produce a qualified FO.

I think it should be a requirement that you have your ATP before you get on with a regional. Economically, though, it ain't gonna happen in the current hiring environment.

 

[John Pennekamp]

It is not the job of the regional airline captain to teach the new folks how to fly. Share some things that they've learned along the way, yes. To teach someone who had their ratings pencil-whipped basic VFR and IFR airmanship, however, is not what they are paid to do. The training department folks are paid good money to produce a qualified FO.

They're also paid to weed out those that just don't get it. Too often, they feel pressure to move people along, hoping they'll "learn it on the line". These pilots should not be coming out of the training department.

I think it should be a requirement that you have your ATP before you get on with a regional. Economically, though, it ain't gonna happen in the current hiring environment.

Agreed! Back to the AMA debate. ALPA needs to pressure the F'in-AA to set some minimum entry standards into the industry!

 

[CFI2766]

Didn't mean to single out the training folks. I think that with what they are given, they are doing the best they can. My gut feeling tells me that they have marching orders, expressed or otherwise, to produce warm bodies for the right seat.

(In fact, I know of a couple of instances where the ATR guys went well above and beyond the syllabus to help out a new-hire that had the right attitude.)

I do agree that it is well past the time for the Feds to set some sort of entry requirements. It's gonna take blood to make this happen, however.

 

[Caveman]

Yep, all you guys shot out of the womb doing inverted single engine NDB approaches with the other engine on fire. Gimme a break. If someone has spent the time, money and effort to pass a private pilot checkride, an instrument checkride, a multiengine checkride, a commercial checkride, at least one CFI checkride, and 121 training they can fly. Maybe not to your holier than thou standard, but they can fly. Give them break and start helping them improve instead of pontificating from the Chuck Yeager Throne of Superior Airmanship.

My experience has been that even the greenest FNG will be doing a pretty good job after about a month of regular line flying. Quit yer bitching and look out for the new guys. I'd love to hear some of the comments from your Captains when you were new too. It probably wasn't any better or worse than what you guys are whining about. Jeez, we all had to start somewhere.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Yep, all you guys shot out of the womb doing inverted single engine NDB approaches with the other engine on fire. Gimme a break. If someone has spent the time, money and effort to pass a private pilot checkride, an instrument checkride, a multiengine checkride, a commercial checkride, at least one CFI checkride, and 121 training they can fly. Maybe not to your holier than thou standard, but they can fly. Give them break and start helping them improve instead of pontificating from the Chuck Yeager Throne of Superior Airmanship.

My experience has been that even the greenest FNG will be doing a pretty good job after about a month of regular line flying. Quit yer bitching and look out for the new guys. I'd love to hear some of the comments from your Captains when you were new too. It probably wasn't any better or worse than what you guys are whining about. Jeez, we all had to start somewhere.

1. I'm no Chuck Yeager.

2. I'm not talking about pilots fresh off IOE. I'm talking about pilots with up to 6 months of line flying

3. If you've flown with one you'd understand. Clearly you haven't.

4. Many only have the basics, Comm ME, not CFI or any other advanced certificates.

5. I was way better as a new hire. I had to be. In order to get hired you had to have significant time. I had 1500 hours and 250 ME to get my first airline job. A lot of that came from instruction. Instruction teaches you more about flying than it teaches the student. It's a lost art these days.

 

[CAVOK69]

I never said, teach them to fly an airplane. I said help them become the aviators they should be. Teach them to be a good First Officer, to think like a captain, and conduct themselves as a professional pilot.

If the FOs cannot fly a basic visual approach or speak on the radios, then that is another problem. But I'd be willing to bet that if I put you in an MD-11 or an airbus, your visual approach wouldn't be that pretty either.

I guess Im just not all doom and gloom about the current situation with new pilots. This industry is very cyclical and I'm sure in the future the hiring of <1000 hours will stop.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I'd be willing to bet that if I put you in an MD-11 or an airbus, your visual approach wouldn't be that pretty either.

I disagree. By the completion of IOE you should possess these basic skills.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

They can't seem to fill new-hire classes yet they still want you to have glass time. That's funny.

There is no point in filling new hire classes with people who are going to wash out of training. The glass cockpit training does help people get through the training process. It has been proven through past experience and metrics.

Contrary to popular line opinion, ASA is not hiring people who can fog a mirror. We are still turning away perhaps 50% of the people that interview.

It is to be expected that the quality of the product coming from IOE will be a little lower than it has been in the past. The training is still geared for a 1500 hr pilot, and it is one size fits all. Until the training program catches up to reality, and realizes that we are in a new kind of employment market, we are going to see people having some initial difficulty on line.

And for those captains that think they are not instructors, think again. Your job is not only to drive the bus from A to B safely, but to help mentor those new pilots along, and get them up to speed. IOE captains get them "safe." YOU get them truly proficient through experience. If you want to not have to help inexperienced people, go fly a grand caravan, single pilot. It will do us ALL a favor.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

It is to be expected that the quality of the product coming from IOE will be a little lower than it has been in the past.

Well, no matter what happens, it's the Captain's ass in the meat grinder. And the company will throw you under the bus, and they know that. You know what happened to the Fedex check airman who supervised that lady's DC-10 crash? That's right, he had to retire. I'm not old enough to retire yet.

 

[g-code]

Well, here is my take from a low-timers' perspective. About 18 months ago, I came on here asking about RAA and based on people's advice here I went to a large flight school based at SAT (international) instead. I now have my PPL and instrument rating done under 141 and I am working on my commercial.

I was planning on flight instructing but now I am not so sure. I was at a party with a bunch of former instructors 3 weeks ago (most are at AE, one at Comair, and 2 at ExpressJet) and they told me,

"Go do the jet course at ATP because it gets you into an airline quicker."

I replied I didn't want to be a sell-out that all my captains hated, and they told me "if its not you, its gonna be someone else."

Since then, I have been chewing on this. I switched over to part 61 for my commercial so I could have a lot more leeway in my commercial training as far as the type of flying I do.

I do my solo X-Cs at night in IMC to DAL or HOU every chance I get, crash at the FBO till about 6-7am then depart on an IFR flight plan while its busy to try to gain some experience in that regard.

I do not want to be a burden in the cockpit, nor do I ever pretend that I am training to soley be a "jet pilot." I carry an ALPA sticker on my flight bag that my father gave me and I convince current instructors we have from Riddle and such (who I dont fly with by the way) to stay away from HoJet.

I guess the problem is that I look at ATPs website and see all these low-time pilot mill guys who fly in Florida and I get worried about getting left behind. I fly steam gauge and a G-1000 to get some glass time (at 120 an hour because I work dispatch) because I want to go to ASA.

I don't wear a backpack, nor do I wear a cheesy uniform when I fly. I have made a flying video, but without the gay Top Gun music.

I guess my point is that I do not want to be a 300 hour FO, but I do not want to be a year behind other guys who do. So if I have to be a 300 hour FO to not fall behind, I will try to be the best 300 hour FO that anyone flies with.

...just my .02.

BTW, here is the video (the two other guys are Mexican national pilots. One has a PPL and the other is a student.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olRt7948XGo

 

[John Pennekamp]

And for those captains that think they are not instructors, think again. Your job is not only to drive the bus from A to B safely, but to help mentor those new pilots along, and get them up to speed. IOE captains get them "safe." YOU get them truly proficient through experience. If you want to not have to help inexperienced people, go fly a grand caravan, single pilot. It will do us ALL a favor.

Spoken like a true elitist IP.

No, my job is to get the people safely from point A to B, while complying with all applicable rules & regulations, and offering an acceptable level of customer service.

It is THE FO's JOB to model himself or herself after the captains they feel do well, to reject the business model of the captains they feel don't, and learn how to one day be a good captain. The captain should offer guidance and feedback in this quest.

Is not the captain's job to teach basic airmanship to a low time pilot. That is an excuse cooked up by management to justify hiring low timers, and the training department to excuse their ineptitude in training them. A part 121 regional airline is not the place to learn how to fly, though that is what it has become. Gone are the days when got yourself "truly proficient through experience" either flight instructing or flying a "grand caravan, single pilot" running freight or charters. Now the burden has fallen on the airlines for that.

Guess what? A lack of planning by the RAA does not constitute an emergency on my part. If the airlines hadn't eroded the profession to the point that nobody wants to be in it, they wouldn't be in the hiring situation they are now where they can't get good quality applicants.

If they want to hire crap, rubber stamp their foreheads in training (at minimum cost, mind you), then send them to me and tell me to teach them to fly, then they better start paying me LCA pay. Or they could improve the pay and working conditions so that more people will again want to become an airline pilot. But don't hand the burden of dealing with the problem to the captains currently flying.

 

[wscrj]

Wow, someone was actually able to sift thru all the crap that gets posted on this site and actually pull some useful information out of it. I am truly impressed. Keep the good attitude, and remember the worst of the worst gets posted here. Strangely, some of the best threads are when we quit bitchin' and share good information and great humor.

You are NOT going to get left behind. Avoid all the "self financed training" you can...it sets an awful precedent.

Instructing is a FANTASTIC way to learn. You'll acquire skills that will pay of much later down the road (like upgrading to CA for the first time). Your CFI ticket can be a fallback plan should your carrier of choice roll inverted and fireball.

Good luck.

Well, here is my take from a low-timers' perspective. About 18 months ago, I came on here asking about RAA and based on people's advice here I went to a large flight school based at SAT (international) instead. I now have my PPL and instrument rating done under 141 and I am working on my commercial.

I was planning on flight instructing but now I am not so sure. I was at a party with a bunch of former instructors 3 weeks ago (most are at AE, one at Comair, and 2 at ExpressJet) and they told me,

"Go do the jet course at ATP because it gets you into an airline quicker."

I replied I didn't want to be a sell-out that all my captains hated, and they told me "if its not you, its gonna be someone else."

Since then, I have been chewing on this. I switched over to part 61 for my commercial so I could have a lot more leeway in my commercial training as far as the type of flying I do.

I do my solo X-Cs at night in IMC to DAL or HOU every chance I get, crash at the FBO till about 6-7am then depart on an IFR flight plan while its busy to try to gain some experience in that regard.

I do not want to be a burden in the cockpit, nor do I ever pretend that I am training to soley be a "jet pilot." I carry an ALPA sticker on my flight bag that my father gave me and I convince current instructors we have from Riddle and such (who I dont fly with by the way) to stay away from HoJet.

I guess the problem is that I look at ATPs website and see all these low-time pilot mill guys who fly in Florida and I get worried about getting left behind. I fly steam gauge and a G-1000 to get some glass time (at 120 an hour because I work dispatch) because I want to go to ASA.

I don't wear a backpack, nor do I wear a cheesy uniform when I fly. I have made a flying video, but without the gay Top Gun music.

I guess my point is that I do not want to be a 300 hour FO, but I do not want to be a year behind other guys who do. So if I have to be a 300 hour FO to not fall behind, I will try to be the best 300 hour FO that anyone flies with.

...just my .02.

BTW, here is the video (the two other guys are Mexican national pilots. One has a PPL and the other is a student.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olRt7948XGo