ASA and glass time?

[ASA_Aviator]

They can't seem to fill new-hire classes yet they still want you to have glass time. That's funny.

There is no point in filling new hire classes with people who are going to wash out of training. The glass cockpit training does help people get through the training process. It has been proven through past experience and metrics.

Contrary to popular line opinion, ASA is not hiring people who can fog a mirror. We are still turning away perhaps 50% of the people that interview.

It is to be expected that the quality of the product coming from IOE will be a little lower than it has been in the past. The training is still geared for a 1500 hr pilot, and it is one size fits all. Until the training program catches up to reality, and realizes that we are in a new kind of employment market, we are going to see people having some initial difficulty on line.

And for those captains that think they are not instructors, think again. Your job is not only to drive the bus from A to B safely, but to help mentor those new pilots along, and get them up to speed. IOE captains get them "safe." YOU get them truly proficient through experience. If you want to not have to help inexperienced people, go fly a grand caravan, single pilot. It will do us ALL a favor.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

It is to be expected that the quality of the product coming from IOE will be a little lower than it has been in the past.

Well, no matter what happens, it's the Captain's ass in the meat grinder. And the company will throw you under the bus, and they know that. You know what happened to the Fedex check airman who supervised that lady's DC-10 crash? That's right, he had to retire. I'm not old enough to retire yet.

 

[g-code]

Well, here is my take from a low-timers' perspective. About 18 months ago, I came on here asking about RAA and based on people's advice here I went to a large flight school based at SAT (international) instead. I now have my PPL and instrument rating done under 141 and I am working on my commercial.

I was planning on flight instructing but now I am not so sure. I was at a party with a bunch of former instructors 3 weeks ago (most are at AE, one at Comair, and 2 at ExpressJet) and they told me,

"Go do the jet course at ATP because it gets you into an airline quicker."

I replied I didn't want to be a sell-out that all my captains hated, and they told me "if its not you, its gonna be someone else."

Since then, I have been chewing on this. I switched over to part 61 for my commercial so I could have a lot more leeway in my commercial training as far as the type of flying I do.

I do my solo X-Cs at night in IMC to DAL or HOU every chance I get, crash at the FBO till about 6-7am then depart on an IFR flight plan while its busy to try to gain some experience in that regard.

I do not want to be a burden in the cockpit, nor do I ever pretend that I am training to soley be a "jet pilot." I carry an ALPA sticker on my flight bag that my father gave me and I convince current instructors we have from Riddle and such (who I dont fly with by the way) to stay away from HoJet.

I guess the problem is that I look at ATPs website and see all these low-time pilot mill guys who fly in Florida and I get worried about getting left behind. I fly steam gauge and a G-1000 to get some glass time (at 120 an hour because I work dispatch) because I want to go to ASA.

I don't wear a backpack, nor do I wear a cheesy uniform when I fly. I have made a flying video, but without the gay Top Gun music.

I guess my point is that I do not want to be a 300 hour FO, but I do not want to be a year behind other guys who do. So if I have to be a 300 hour FO to not fall behind, I will try to be the best 300 hour FO that anyone flies with.

...just my .02.

BTW, here is the video (the two other guys are Mexican national pilots. One has a PPL and the other is a student.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olRt7948XGo

 

[John Pennekamp]

And for those captains that think they are not instructors, think again. Your job is not only to drive the bus from A to B safely, but to help mentor those new pilots along, and get them up to speed. IOE captains get them "safe." YOU get them truly proficient through experience. If you want to not have to help inexperienced people, go fly a grand caravan, single pilot. It will do us ALL a favor.

Spoken like a true elitist IP.

No, my job is to get the people safely from point A to B, while complying with all applicable rules & regulations, and offering an acceptable level of customer service.

It is THE FO's JOB to model himself or herself after the captains they feel do well, to reject the business model of the captains they feel don't, and learn how to one day be a good captain. The captain should offer guidance and feedback in this quest.

Is not the captain's job to teach basic airmanship to a low time pilot. That is an excuse cooked up by management to justify hiring low timers, and the training department to excuse their ineptitude in training them. A part 121 regional airline is not the place to learn how to fly, though that is what it has become. Gone are the days when got yourself "truly proficient through experience" either flight instructing or flying a "grand caravan, single pilot" running freight or charters. Now the burden has fallen on the airlines for that.

Guess what? A lack of planning by the RAA does not constitute an emergency on my part. If the airlines hadn't eroded the profession to the point that nobody wants to be in it, they wouldn't be in the hiring situation they are now where they can't get good quality applicants.

If they want to hire crap, rubber stamp their foreheads in training (at minimum cost, mind you), then send them to me and tell me to teach them to fly, then they better start paying me LCA pay. Or they could improve the pay and working conditions so that more people will again want to become an airline pilot. But don't hand the burden of dealing with the problem to the captains currently flying.

 

[wscrj]

Wow, someone was actually able to sift thru all the crap that gets posted on this site and actually pull some useful information out of it. I am truly impressed. Keep the good attitude, and remember the worst of the worst gets posted here. Strangely, some of the best threads are when we quit bitchin' and share good information and great humor.

You are NOT going to get left behind. Avoid all the "self financed training" you can...it sets an awful precedent.

Instructing is a FANTASTIC way to learn. You'll acquire skills that will pay of much later down the road (like upgrading to CA for the first time). Your CFI ticket can be a fallback plan should your carrier of choice roll inverted and fireball.

Good luck.

Well, here is my take from a low-timers' perspective. About 18 months ago, I came on here asking about RAA and based on people's advice here I went to a large flight school based at SAT (international) instead. I now have my PPL and instrument rating done under 141 and I am working on my commercial.

I was planning on flight instructing but now I am not so sure. I was at a party with a bunch of former instructors 3 weeks ago (most are at AE, one at Comair, and 2 at ExpressJet) and they told me,

"Go do the jet course at ATP because it gets you into an airline quicker."

I replied I didn't want to be a sell-out that all my captains hated, and they told me "if its not you, its gonna be someone else."

Since then, I have been chewing on this. I switched over to part 61 for my commercial so I could have a lot more leeway in my commercial training as far as the type of flying I do.

I do my solo X-Cs at night in IMC to DAL or HOU every chance I get, crash at the FBO till about 6-7am then depart on an IFR flight plan while its busy to try to gain some experience in that regard.

I do not want to be a burden in the cockpit, nor do I ever pretend that I am training to soley be a "jet pilot." I carry an ALPA sticker on my flight bag that my father gave me and I convince current instructors we have from Riddle and such (who I dont fly with by the way) to stay away from HoJet.

I guess the problem is that I look at ATPs website and see all these low-time pilot mill guys who fly in Florida and I get worried about getting left behind. I fly steam gauge and a G-1000 to get some glass time (at 120 an hour because I work dispatch) because I want to go to ASA.

I don't wear a backpack, nor do I wear a cheesy uniform when I fly. I have made a flying video, but without the gay Top Gun music.

I guess my point is that I do not want to be a 300 hour FO, but I do not want to be a year behind other guys who do. So if I have to be a 300 hour FO to not fall behind, I will try to be the best 300 hour FO that anyone flies with.

...just my .02.

BTW, here is the video (the two other guys are Mexican national pilots. One has a PPL and the other is a student.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olRt7948XGo

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Spoken like a true elitist IP.

No, my job is to get the people safely from point A to B, while complying with all applicable rules & regulations, and offering an acceptable level of customer service.

It is THE FO's JOB to model himself or herself after the captains they feel do well, to reject the business model of the captains they feel don't, and learn how to one day be a good captain. The captain should offer guidance and feedback in this quest.

Is not the captain's job to teach basic airmanship to a low time pilot. That is an excuse cooked up by management to justify hiring low timers, and the training department to excuse their ineptitude in training them. A part 121 regional airline is not the place to learn how to fly, though that is what it has become. Gone are the days when got yourself "truly proficient through experience" either flight instructing or flying a "grand caravan, single pilot" running freight or charters. Now the burden has fallen on the airlines for that.

Guess what? A lack of planning by the RAA does not constitute an emergency on my part. If the airlines hadn't eroded the profession to the point that nobody wants to be in it, they wouldn't be in the hiring situation they are now where they can't get good quality applicants.

If they want to hire crap, rubber stamp their foreheads in training (at minimum cost, mind you), then send them to me and tell me to teach them to fly, then they better start paying me LCA pay. Or they could improve the pay and working conditions so that more people will again want to become an airline pilot. But don't hand the burden of dealing with the problem to the captains currently flying.

Read some Bob Buck books, and you'll see that it has always been the job of the captain to instruct the new FOs. Get off of your high horse, and do some work.

We have to accept, as pilots, that the market is yielding a certain type of FO. If we aren't receptive to them, then we'll end up parking airplanes. It is just a fact that those out there on the market are not as qualified as in the past.

And, for the record, I am not an IP. I'm a realist who understands that the training department cannot get a 500 hour pilot up to the level of experience that ASA's captains are used to. It would take literally a couple of months of being on IOE to get someone up to that level.

So the next time you fly with one of these new guys, cut them some slack, and help them out. If they have a bad attitude, take them down a couple of notches...that's fine.

 

[HoserASA]

Well, here is my take from a low-timers' perspective.

I replied I didn't want to be a sell-out that all my captains hated, and they told me "if its not you, its gonna be someone else."

I do not want to be a burden in the cockpit,

So if I have to be a 300 hour FO to not fall behind, I will try to be the best 300 hour FO that anyone flies with.

Don't read too much into what you read on boards like this one. And don't be concerned about being a "sellout". Take advantage of the times and just do it.Those who bitch about it on here would do it too if they were in your position.

As long as you maintain a good attitude, ask for additional help if you want and/or need it, accept criticism, and come prepared during training, and out on line for that matter, you'll be fine.

You will have to fly with some Capts who won't be helpful, but most will be. ASA's training department and IPs are top notch, and will bend over backwards for you as long as you do the forementioned things. Good luck.

Hoser

 

[PCL_128]

Read some Bob Buck books, and you'll see that it has always been the job of the captain to instruct the new FOs. Get off of your high horse, and do some work.

Good post.

 

[wmuflyguy]

I replied I didn't want to be a sell-out that all my captains hated, and they told me "if its not you, its gonna be someone else."

Don't worry about what other people think. Making a decision on that isn't very smart.

 

[rumrnr78]

g-code- I think you are spot on with your attitude! And, because of your attitude, I would encourage you to take advantage of the regional offers with low time.
You have not presented an "entitlement attitude" nor have you inquired about buying a job like PCL_; who now tries to cover his tracks by trashing the very company who hired and paid him even though he bought his job at GIA like a true scumbag.
Sorry, this post is about you, the times have changed, be humble, honest and go for your dreams. No one can fault you for taking advantage of the industry as long as you keep that attitude and your perspective. Cheers- rum