ASA and Comair to merge

[bailout]

>>Atlantic Southeast-Jackson Airlines<<


ROFL!!

 

[rjcap]

Fred Buttrell doesn't make the decisions.

The new Delta CEO will decide if he can get some workable concessions from this proposal.

What this does is make life very difficult for Skippy Barnette and his gang of do nothing senior managers. Either he proposes a workable contract for the ASA pilots to satisfy their desires or he loses his job with the merger of Comair and ASA.

Skip is backed into a no win situation here. Either choice and he loses.

the real issue is how this ties into the mainline pilot concession talks and ultimately that is decided by the new CEO and DALPA.

 

[jarhead]

Krusty

Oh yes, I am well aware of the exact time of the Comair 89 day long stike in the spring of 2001. The three year anniversary of the start of that action is coming up soon this coming March of 2004.

I did not realize it was that long ago that the NWA pilots were on the picket line (1998) for 15 days, but I fully accept your date on that. My point, however, was that the SIZE of an airline does not prevent a strike, PEB or no PEB of 60 days.....it can, and does happen.

 

[sleepy]

jarhead, it depends on who is President and who controls the Congress. It would make it harder for ASA-Jackson (too funny) to strike, but not impossible.

 

[wms]

DAL is the final authority on an ASA/CA merger. However, because we're owned by the same company, a seniority merger would be harder to resist. It could start with a seniority merger and go from there. The fact that there seems to be ALPA and DALPA support is a plus. Also, with DALPA's counter proposal including DAL/DCI protection, they may have some influence through their concessions negotiations. This would obviously include opportunity for the 1060.

For those who think a large pilot group means power, look at AE or Coex. But if mgmt/labor relations are good, a strong labor group can help immensely to make a strong airline.

 

[Heavy Set]

I am not a Delta employee. Sometimes the truth hurts - reducing negotiating leverage is not in Buttrell's best interest - that's all I am saying...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Even when ALPA acts like they might make some small effort to limit alter ego flying and act like a union they screw it up.

(1) While the merger resolution might be earnest at the LEC level, ALPA National and the Delta MEC would never allow Connection to grow under such a scheme. If ever Connection gets 1 vote more than the Delta MEC has the entire ALPA power structure would be destroyed and nothing means more to ALPA's power structure than their position.

(2) The merger is political spin speech designed to cover the fact that it has always been within ALPA's power to merge ASA, Comair and Delta under US labor law. ALPA voted that there was not "sufficient operation integration." Don't forget that at every turn - ALPA - has killed mergers on the Delta property. Management has never had the chance to kill something - ALPA struck it down first.

(3) ALPA thinks management is so entrenched against a merger that ALPA feels safe that this proposal is a "poison pill." Just like the "philosophical differences" that demanded everyone on the Delta property (even those underpaid by current industry averages) must take a pay cut before the Delta pilots would even negotiate.

(4) An ASA / Comair merger makes little difference. It reduces the number of DCI carriers by one during a year that Mesa is being invited to bid on 45 airplanes. Unless all Delta flying is done by Delta pilots and Delta's signature is on the contract, it is pretty much meaningless. From management's standpoint it makes little difference either. Delta has already cut out redundancies and runs the show from Virginia Avenue. Make no mistake about it, Comair and ASA are not airlines in their present form. ASA and Comair are simply names used to undermine employee's efforts to bargain collectively. As Delta admits, we have no ability to set routes, sell tickets, account for finances, etc... We are not airlines.

(5) And if ASA and Comair are so called independent airlines, why the heck do we need the consent of the Delta MEC Chairman? Doesn't this further illustrate the problems ALPA National has representing Comair and ASA pilots!!! In a proper representational structure ASA and Comair pilots would have standing to represent their interests without getting permission from the Delta pilots. Who else do we need "permission" from to get the representation guaranteed to us by ALPA's Constitution.

Welcome to "Deagle" your Song Connection. Whatever. Until ALPA represents ASA and Comair pilots this is meaningless hyperbole.

~~~^~~~

 

[Old Crow]

Though very important, DCI shouldn't make their complete business model based on "beating the organized labor". They cannot avoid the obvious expense that is required to maintain a portfolio.

AJC represents the public view. They seem to be tuned in to this just fine.

Yes, we will be big, etc., etc...
But don't overlook the positive potential.

 

[bailout]

Would this mean ASA would have to fly the "older" Comair RJs with the ugly worn out paint?

What about Flaps 8 for Comair ??


AHhhhhh, the agony........

 

[Krusty]

Thanks Jarhead, their was no bashing there...

I will say this to Bailout,
we can use Flaps 8, and the older jets are not necessarily the older paint schemes, have you ever heard of a "C" check, it takes an A/C's life 36 months to get weighed again, thus a new paint job.

I had a flight attendant ask me that, "Oh, I thought the older ones are the ones with the old paint jobs, d'ooo.

no biggy....

it is all small stuff.

 

[rjcap]

reducing negotiating leverage is not in Buttrell's best interest

Heavy Set,

Buttrell is not the decision maker. He is a CEO of DCI which is a paper corporation that has no assets. The CEO of Delta calls all the shots for DCI. That is exactly why this proposed merger is a big question mark considering the unknown quality of the new CEO.

 

[Heavy Set]

RJCap,

You are correct - I guess I was referring to Delta management in general... Beyond the operational savings, I don't see anything that would make this merger attractive to the people who make the decisions...

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Okie dokie, Heavy.

If whoever manages this "company" doesn't want to merge lists then there really isn't much more talk about and so I am content with our current working agreement in its present form.

See ya in 2006!

 

[rjcap]

Heavy,

The real issue here is the negotiating leverage that this proposal creates.

In general, D mgmt has felt that it was prudent to shave off 8 million or so from Comair's pilot contract and subsequesntly ASA's future contract. To turn the tables, the respective MEC's of the regionals have now proposed a merger in exchange for contract relief. This creates somewhat of a sticky situation now that ASA is in contract talks and I can tell you that we fully expect to go Comair one better on our future contract.

Now put all this into context with the bigger issue of the proposed concessions at mainline and you have a very interesting situation. Does mainline merge the regionals and garner some concessions for a briefperiod of time or does mgmt say no and deal with the exisiting Comair contract and potential ASA strike in late 2004 ????

Even bigger yet is what happens if their is a side deal with DALPA to endorse this as part of the mainline concessions in exchange for the future withdraw of the RJDC litigation ????

This could get very interesting !

In the words of one of my favorite airline CEO's,

" This is a stupid business run by stupid people."

 

[Ace757]

Regular negotiations resume
Dec. 9, 2003

ASA and ALPA resumed regular
negotiations today after ALPA declined
the company's proposal to negotiate
over a two-year contract extension to
increase the attractiveness of ASA's
bid for future Delta Connection growth.
ALPA responded to the company's
proposal by proposing that Delta and
Delta Connection, Inc., (1) consolidate
ASA and Comair, (2) combine the ASA and
Comair seniority lists, (3) consolidate
the ASA and Comair pilot agreements,
and (4) award all future DCI flying to
a combined ASA/Comair. In a memo issued
to all ASA team members, ASA President
Skip Barnette said, "The ALPA response
did not address ASA's proposal to
extend the current collective
bargaining agreement; instead, it
proposed things that ASA has no
authority to negotiate ... ASA
representatives informed ALPA
representatives that ASA did not have
authority to discuss ALPA's proposal
and the meeting ended." Previously
scheduled negotiations continue through
Friday in Atlanta.

 

[~~~^~~~]

And my response - if you don't have authority to negotiate, send someone to the table who does. The clock continues to run and we will seek self help when it is legal to do so.

I am willing to walk off the job as long as it takes to bring an end to this alter ego Delta Connection operation. In its current financial condition, that is the end of Delta AirLines. So be it.

 

[rjcap]

Ditto

 

[japhy]

What really needs to happen is for ASA and Comair to get rid of ALPA. ALPA national is just bad news to any airline except the majors. Lets form our own "union" and say F*&k you to ALPA.

 

[Anaconda]

To turn the tables, the respective MEC's of the regionals have now proposed a merger in exchange for contract relief.

pardon my ignorance but where does it say in the memos from the mec's about contract relief? my understanding is that the cost savings from merging the two airlines would alleviate having to take any contract relief.

 

[Heavy Set]

Hey, I hope you guys get it - I am sure it would be very beneficial for the pilots groups... I just call it like I see it - I think it would be difficult to persuade people who currently have negotiating leverage...

Good luck!

 

[FlyComAirJets]

All sides in this situation have varying degrees of leverage. In this era of financial mutually assurred distruction, that bears minding.

 

[jetflyer]

LEVERAGE is the big word here.

How did American take away the leverage of American Eagle when it merged the FOUR not TWO airlines?

It gave them a 12 year contract...

Why can't Comair/ASA get a contract that is like American Eagles but OBVIOUSLY BETTER. This would resolve the LEVERAGE problem.

Eagle's pay is based on something like INDUSTRY AVERAGE PAY.

Why can't Comair/ASA get a contract with INDUSTRY AVERAGE PAY + 8%??? Or something that would always leave Comair/ASA close to the top in pay.

Then they could also get reasonable trip/duty rigs etc. in a 12 year contract????


Wouldn't this solve the problem of LEVERAGE?? It would work for Delta management! I betcha. Does anyone else like this idea??

Jet

 

[FLB717]

Jetflyer,
Are you for real? Do you reallt think that? Just ask any AE Pilot how well thier leverage works. Any contract over 4 years is a waste of oportunity. And if everyone has a industry average contract, were you gona be in 12 years, sre^^ed. So, put down the beer, step away from the keyboard, read ALPA's Flying the Line, part 1 and 2. than let me know what you think. believe it or not I mean that with as much respect as possible.

 

[jetflyer]

FLB717,

DANG LOL it was just an idea. Trying to see how we can make this thing work. CHILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLll...

Anyone else have any ideas on how it can work and DELTA won't be completely afraid of one gian UNION GROUP??

Jet

 

[cl65capt]

Just one pilots opinion but this thing will never fly. If management really wanted this it would have already happened by now regardless of whether we wanted it or not.


CL65Capt

 

[spinproof]

On the surface it is easy to say this won't fly. Conventional wisdom agrees with you. I also will agree to an extent ,except one has to wonder what is behind an obviously doomed attempt by the combined MEC's.....The downside to this has been discussed. What about the upside?

With Deltas stock languising at $10-$12 a share what would a future of reduced redundancy of management expense accomplish. In this day of corporate "Hari-Kari" I would think that it would be looked upon favorably by investors. Even to the extent that a significant bump would make "Leos" replacement(s) an instant hit!

Whether this will be a factor or not will be played out in the coming months. I am teased by the thought...well slightly ;-)

(In the interest of public disclosure I am a stock holder and still buying!!!)

 

[surplus1]

In a memo issued
to all ASA team members, ASA President
Skip Barnette said, "The ALPA response
did not address ASA's proposal to
extend the current collective
bargaining agreement; instead, it
proposed things that ASA has no
authority to negotiate ... ASA
representatives informed ALPA
representatives that ASA did not have
authority to discuss ALPA's proposal
and the meeting ended." Previously
scheduled negotiations continue through
Friday in Atlanta.

Well, at least the ASA President is accurate in this statement. For those who didn't understand or wouldn't admit the basics of the situation (previously) maybe this will help.

Netheir ASA or CMR pilots are "negotiating" with the right party. Comair management and ASA management "has no authority to negotiate" and [do] "not have the authority to discuss" the key elements of the integration issue nor the key elements of any proposed concessions.

Negotiations with CMR or ASA management are essentially a waste of time. They do not have the "authority" to make any meaningful decisions.

If this doesn't show you why Comair's offer of growth in exchange for concessions was and remains bogus, what will it take? The same applies to ASA.

Unitl the Comair and ASA pilot groups are permitted by their union to negotiate directly with Delta management, both are spinning their wheels in a futile exercise whose only purpose is political and has very little to do with serious collective bargaining.

 

[~~~^~~~]

All sides in this situation have varying degrees of leverage. In this era of financial mutually assurred distruction, that bears minding.

You are correct and that is why this is the time to force the issue.

How much loyalty should we have to a Company that has insisted that we are not part of the team?

All of us can get better jobs elsewhere. There is not a single Delta "employee," particularly their pilots, who can make that claim.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Unitl the Comair and ASA pilot groups are permitted by their union to negotiate directly with Delta management, both are spinning their wheels in a futile exercise whose only purpose is political and has very little to do with serious collective bargaining.

Surplus - what is your take on John Malone's support? Why is his support mentioned? Do you think ALPA would allow ASA to strike?

It may be political talk, but this is my one "strike" issue. It has bothered me deeply that ALPA allowed Delta to get away with running alter ego airlines. We have the opportunity to bring this to a stop when we are released for self help. I for one, will not return to "ASA." So this does deal with "collective bargaining" in that it has lit the fuse on the same powder keg that the RJDC has been trying to properly disarm.

I don't care which method is used - methodical resolution through the Courts, or Mutual Assured Destruction in a strike. Either way the result is the same.

 

[sleepy]

Just one pilots opinion but this thing will never fly. If management really wanted this it would have already happened by now regardless of whether we wanted it or not.


CL65Capt

Maybe management is waiting to see if they can get the ASA and Comair pilots to pay for the merger with a long-term concessionary contract. It's possible.