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ASA and Comair to merge
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Fred Buttrell doesn't make the decisions.
The new Delta CEO will decide if he can get some workable concessions from this proposal.
What this does is make life very difficult for Skippy Barnette and his gang of do nothing senior managers. Either he proposes a workable contract for the ASA pilots to satisfy their desires or he loses his job with the merger of Comair and ASA.
Skip is backed into a no win situation here. Either choice and he loses.
the real issue is how this ties into the mainline pilot concession talks and ultimately that is decided by the new CEO and DALPA.
The new Delta CEO will decide if he can get some workable concessions from this proposal.
What this does is make life very difficult for Skippy Barnette and his gang of do nothing senior managers. Either he proposes a workable contract for the ASA pilots to satisfy their desires or he loses his job with the merger of Comair and ASA.
Skip is backed into a no win situation here. Either choice and he loses.
the real issue is how this ties into the mainline pilot concession talks and ultimately that is decided by the new CEO and DALPA.
jarhead
master of my domain
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2002
- Posts
- 1,162
Krusty
Oh yes, I am well aware of the exact time of the Comair 89 day long stike in the spring of 2001. The three year anniversary of the start of that action is coming up soon this coming March of 2004.
I did not realize it was that long ago that the NWA pilots were on the picket line (1998) for 15 days, but I fully accept your date on that. My point, however, was that the SIZE of an airline does not prevent a strike, PEB or no PEB of 60 days.....it can, and does happen.
Oh yes, I am well aware of the exact time of the Comair 89 day long stike in the spring of 2001. The three year anniversary of the start of that action is coming up soon this coming March of 2004.
I did not realize it was that long ago that the NWA pilots were on the picket line (1998) for 15 days, but I fully accept your date on that. My point, however, was that the SIZE of an airline does not prevent a strike, PEB or no PEB of 60 days.....it can, and does happen.
wms
billSquared
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2003
- Posts
- 2,052
DAL is the final authority on an ASA/CA merger. However, because we're owned by the same company, a seniority merger would be harder to resist. It could start with a seniority merger and go from there. The fact that there seems to be ALPA and DALPA support is a plus. Also, with DALPA's counter proposal including DAL/DCI protection, they may have some influence through their concessions negotiations. This would obviously include opportunity for the 1060.
For those who think a large pilot group means power, look at AE or Coex. But if mgmt/labor relations are good, a strong labor group can help immensely to make a strong airline.
For those who think a large pilot group means power, look at AE or Coex. But if mgmt/labor relations are good, a strong labor group can help immensely to make a strong airline.
~~~^~~~
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Posts
- 6,137
Even when ALPA acts like they might make some small effort to limit alter ego flying and act like a union they screw it up.
(1) While the merger resolution might be earnest at the LEC level, ALPA National and the Delta MEC would never allow Connection to grow under such a scheme. If ever Connection gets 1 vote more than the Delta MEC has the entire ALPA power structure would be destroyed and nothing means more to ALPA's power structure than their position.
(2) The merger is political spin speech designed to cover the fact that it has always been within ALPA's power to merge ASA, Comair and Delta under US labor law. ALPA voted that there was not "sufficient operation integration." Don't forget that at every turn - ALPA - has killed mergers on the Delta property. Management has never had the chance to kill something - ALPA struck it down first.
(3) ALPA thinks management is so entrenched against a merger that ALPA feels safe that this proposal is a "poison pill." Just like the "philosophical differences" that demanded everyone on the Delta property (even those underpaid by current industry averages) must take a pay cut before the Delta pilots would even negotiate.
(4) An ASA / Comair merger makes little difference. It reduces the number of DCI carriers by one during a year that Mesa is being invited to bid on 45 airplanes. Unless all Delta flying is done by Delta pilots and Delta's signature is on the contract, it is pretty much meaningless. From management's standpoint it makes little difference either. Delta has already cut out redundancies and runs the show from Virginia Avenue. Make no mistake about it, Comair and ASA are not airlines in their present form. ASA and Comair are simply names used to undermine employee's efforts to bargain collectively. As Delta admits, we have no ability to set routes, sell tickets, account for finances, etc... We are not airlines.
(5) And if ASA and Comair are so called independent airlines, why the heck do we need the consent of the Delta MEC Chairman? Doesn't this further illustrate the problems ALPA National has representing Comair and ASA pilots!!! In a proper representational structure ASA and Comair pilots would have standing to represent their interests without getting permission from the Delta pilots. Who else do we need "permission" from to get the representation guaranteed to us by ALPA's Constitution.
Welcome to "Deagle" your Song Connection. Whatever. Until ALPA represents ASA and Comair pilots this is meaningless hyperbole.
~~~^~~~
(1) While the merger resolution might be earnest at the LEC level, ALPA National and the Delta MEC would never allow Connection to grow under such a scheme. If ever Connection gets 1 vote more than the Delta MEC has the entire ALPA power structure would be destroyed and nothing means more to ALPA's power structure than their position.
(2) The merger is political spin speech designed to cover the fact that it has always been within ALPA's power to merge ASA, Comair and Delta under US labor law. ALPA voted that there was not "sufficient operation integration." Don't forget that at every turn - ALPA - has killed mergers on the Delta property. Management has never had the chance to kill something - ALPA struck it down first.
(3) ALPA thinks management is so entrenched against a merger that ALPA feels safe that this proposal is a "poison pill." Just like the "philosophical differences" that demanded everyone on the Delta property (even those underpaid by current industry averages) must take a pay cut before the Delta pilots would even negotiate.
(4) An ASA / Comair merger makes little difference. It reduces the number of DCI carriers by one during a year that Mesa is being invited to bid on 45 airplanes. Unless all Delta flying is done by Delta pilots and Delta's signature is on the contract, it is pretty much meaningless. From management's standpoint it makes little difference either. Delta has already cut out redundancies and runs the show from Virginia Avenue. Make no mistake about it, Comair and ASA are not airlines in their present form. ASA and Comair are simply names used to undermine employee's efforts to bargain collectively. As Delta admits, we have no ability to set routes, sell tickets, account for finances, etc... We are not airlines.
(5) And if ASA and Comair are so called independent airlines, why the heck do we need the consent of the Delta MEC Chairman? Doesn't this further illustrate the problems ALPA National has representing Comair and ASA pilots!!! In a proper representational structure ASA and Comair pilots would have standing to represent their interests without getting permission from the Delta pilots. Who else do we need "permission" from to get the representation guaranteed to us by ALPA's Constitution.
Welcome to "Deagle" your Song Connection. Whatever. Until ALPA represents ASA and Comair pilots this is meaningless hyperbole.
~~~^~~~
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Though very important, DCI shouldn't make their complete business model based on "beating the organized labor". They cannot avoid the obvious expense that is required to maintain a portfolio.
AJC represents the public view. They seem to be tuned in to this just fine.
Yes, we will be big, etc., etc...
But don't overlook the positive potential.
AJC represents the public view. They seem to be tuned in to this just fine.
Yes, we will be big, etc., etc...
But don't overlook the positive potential.
Thanks Jarhead, their was no bashing there...
I will say this to Bailout,
we can use Flaps 8, and the older jets are not necessarily the older paint schemes, have you ever heard of a "C" check, it takes an A/C's life 36 months to get weighed again, thus a new paint job.
I had a flight attendant ask me that, "Oh, I thought the older ones are the ones with the old paint jobs, d'ooo.
no biggy....
it is all small stuff.
I will say this to Bailout,
we can use Flaps 8, and the older jets are not necessarily the older paint schemes, have you ever heard of a "C" check, it takes an A/C's life 36 months to get weighed again, thus a new paint job.
I had a flight attendant ask me that, "Oh, I thought the older ones are the ones with the old paint jobs, d'ooo.
no biggy....
it is all small stuff.
FlyComAirJets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2002
- Posts
- 323
Heavy,
The real issue here is the negotiating leverage that this proposal creates.
In general, D mgmt has felt that it was prudent to shave off 8 million or so from Comair's pilot contract and subsequesntly ASA's future contract. To turn the tables, the respective MEC's of the regionals have now proposed a merger in exchange for contract relief. This creates somewhat of a sticky situation now that ASA is in contract talks and I can tell you that we fully expect to go Comair one better on our future contract.
Now put all this into context with the bigger issue of the proposed concessions at mainline and you have a very interesting situation. Does mainline merge the regionals and garner some concessions for a briefperiod of time or does mgmt say no and deal with the exisiting Comair contract and potential ASA strike in late 2004 ????
Even bigger yet is what happens if their is a side deal with DALPA to endorse this as part of the mainline concessions in exchange for the future withdraw of the RJDC litigation ????
This could get very interesting !
In the words of one of my favorite airline CEO's,
" This is a stupid business run by stupid people."
The real issue here is the negotiating leverage that this proposal creates.
In general, D mgmt has felt that it was prudent to shave off 8 million or so from Comair's pilot contract and subsequesntly ASA's future contract. To turn the tables, the respective MEC's of the regionals have now proposed a merger in exchange for contract relief. This creates somewhat of a sticky situation now that ASA is in contract talks and I can tell you that we fully expect to go Comair one better on our future contract.
Now put all this into context with the bigger issue of the proposed concessions at mainline and you have a very interesting situation. Does mainline merge the regionals and garner some concessions for a briefperiod of time or does mgmt say no and deal with the exisiting Comair contract and potential ASA strike in late 2004 ????
Even bigger yet is what happens if their is a side deal with DALPA to endorse this as part of the mainline concessions in exchange for the future withdraw of the RJDC litigation ????
This could get very interesting !
In the words of one of my favorite airline CEO's,
" This is a stupid business run by stupid people."
Ace757
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2003
- Posts
- 267
Regular negotiations resume
Dec. 9, 2003
ASA and ALPA resumed regular
negotiations today after ALPA declined
the company's proposal to negotiate
over a two-year contract extension to
increase the attractiveness of ASA's
bid for future Delta Connection growth.
ALPA responded to the company's
proposal by proposing that Delta and
Delta Connection, Inc., (1) consolidate
ASA and Comair, (2) combine the ASA and
Comair seniority lists, (3) consolidate
the ASA and Comair pilot agreements,
and (4) award all future DCI flying to
a combined ASA/Comair. In a memo issued
to all ASA team members, ASA President
Skip Barnette said, "The ALPA response
did not address ASA's proposal to
extend the current collective
bargaining agreement; instead, it
proposed things that ASA has no
authority to negotiate ... ASA
representatives informed ALPA
representatives that ASA did not have
authority to discuss ALPA's proposal
and the meeting ended." Previously
scheduled negotiations continue through
Friday in Atlanta.
Dec. 9, 2003
ASA and ALPA resumed regular
negotiations today after ALPA declined
the company's proposal to negotiate
over a two-year contract extension to
increase the attractiveness of ASA's
bid for future Delta Connection growth.
ALPA responded to the company's
proposal by proposing that Delta and
Delta Connection, Inc., (1) consolidate
ASA and Comair, (2) combine the ASA and
Comair seniority lists, (3) consolidate
the ASA and Comair pilot agreements,
and (4) award all future DCI flying to
a combined ASA/Comair. In a memo issued
to all ASA team members, ASA President
Skip Barnette said, "The ALPA response
did not address ASA's proposal to
extend the current collective
bargaining agreement; instead, it
proposed things that ASA has no
authority to negotiate ... ASA
representatives informed ALPA
representatives that ASA did not have
authority to discuss ALPA's proposal
and the meeting ended." Previously
scheduled negotiations continue through
Friday in Atlanta.
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