AS Furlough Mitigation

[Ih8AFYesmen]

Though I've never been furloughed since this is my first airline (hopefully last), I can relate to your frustrations and the fear of losing everything. I've been there a few times myself. I'm no spin doctor; I like to think that I call things the way I see it. I am not happy with the union nor am I a company man, but regarding this MOU I believe that union did the right thing by letting the membership vote. There's a long history of this union doing things behind closed doors and this MEC broke that mold. This MOU was another attempt to divide and conquer by shoving this POS down our throat-damned if you do, damned if you don't kinda deal. Yes, we have a W.D. union but management is the real enemy. As the song goes, "know your enemy".
I know it's unbearable for some of you right now, but hang in there. Believe it or not, things always work out for the better in the end. My support and prayers are with you.

 

[Ocity]

OKay, emotions are running a bit high here. Some of you guys are WAY out of line attacking the pilot group. Ask you friends at other airlines how many furlough mitigation programs they have at other airlines. I've been to a few airlines, and have been furloughed myself. The reserve/ line sharing program, LOA program, and two rounds of Early retirements just to mention a few. I know the COMPANY didn't allow the last round of early outs to proceed but don't forget that 12 guys WANTED to go and save those jobs. Also remember that they wanted to furlough 80 and only 52 went on this wave. I totally understand that if you are one of the 52 how badly this sucks but you CANNOT deny, by basic math, that these programs DID save some jobs.

Furloughs are a FACT OF LIFE in aviation. I realize that Alaska isn't at all used to it happening because it hasn't in nearly 3 decades here but it still happens. The heart of the MOU problem is this:

85% of this pilot group has been here longer than the remaining 15%. We were here pre and post Kasher. We know what this management group is capable of...and here they are, wanting us to set a precedent, establish "past practice" of opening up wide ranges of our contract that still is yet to be signed by the company. For what? A non-binding "promise" that they will not furlough 30 guys and not downgrade 13. YHGTBSM! If we fell for that, we'd deserve what we got. This thing is not nearly as benign as the company's "term sheet" would have you believe. The vast majority of the group saw right through that.

The lines are SUPPOSED to be at 75 hrs already and their not. (don't blame the union) They want us to pay twice for that program? F. That. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the power of a airline labor union here. We can't tell the company how to do a G damn thing. The only thing we can to is file greivances...that takes years sometimes. I know being furloughed sucks. I've seen my household income go from 180k a year to ZERO for nearly 16 months after 9-11. I understand the high emotion but that DOES NOT give some of you carte blanche to run your ill-informed mouths off, blaming the "greedy pussies" at Alaska airlines. It isn't about greed, it's about protecting the heart of our contract and subsequently our....YOUR careers.

First of all, we need to wait and see what actually happens October 1st. There is always a chance that the company is using these guys as bait to open the contract...personally I don't believe that's what's going on, and if I was slated to be furloughed, I would plan on that actually happening but there is always a chance it won't. BTW, this WILL pass. There's nothing anybody can do about you being furloughed. Make a point out of trying to enjoy this free time in your life because it's time that you will NEVER get back...being miserable will not help you or your family.

BTW, I'm on the reserve bubble, took a 4 month leave this year, and have kept my line under 80 hrs for well over a year, and I gladly pay the medical assessments and will continue to do so until our LAST guy needs it.

Flame on.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

...and here they are, wanting us to set a precedent, establish "past practice" of opening up wide ranges of our contract that still is yet to be signed by the company. For what? A non-binding "promise" that they will not furlough 30 guys and not downgrade 13. YHGTBSM! If we fell for that, we'd deserve what we got.

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that a MOU isn't just a wink and a "we'll see what we can do . . . "

And to say that this would "set a precedent" is a bad thing is ignoring the fact that a precedent can be in our favor as well. The Section 23 Mitigation has no precedence and since our union so tacitly approves VSA, I don't see the problem of setting an example that VSA goes when furloughs happen.

As a "No" voter, what would make Furlough Mitigation a passable MOU for you?

 

[mach none]

OKay, emotions are running a bit high here. Some of you guys are WAY out of line attacking the pilot group. Ask you friends at other airlines how many furlough mitigation programs they have at other airlines. I've been to a few airlines, and have been furloughed myself. The reserve/ line sharing program, LOA program, and two rounds of Early retirements just to mention a few. I know the COMPANY didn't allow the last round of early outs to proceed but don't forget that 12 guys WANTED to go and save those jobs. Also remember that they wanted to furlough 80 and only 52 went on this wave. I totally understand that if you are one of the 52 how badly this sucks but you CANNOT deny, by basic math, that these programs DID save some jobs.

Furloughs are a FACT OF LIFE in aviation. I realize that Alaska isn't at all used to it happening because it hasn't in nearly 3 decades here but it still happens. The heart of the MOU problem is this:

85% of this pilot group has been here longer than the remaining 15%. We were here pre and post Kasher. We know what this management group is capable of...and here they are, wanting us to set a precedent, establish "past practice" of opening up wide ranges of our contract that still is yet to be signed by the company. For what? A non-binding "promise" that they will not furlough 30 guys and not downgrade 13. YHGTBSM! If we fell for that, we'd deserve what we got. This thing is not nearly as benign as the company's "term sheet" would have you believe. The vast majority of the group saw right through that.

The lines are SUPPOSED to be at 75 hrs already and their not. (don't blame the union) They want us to pay twice for that program? F. That. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the power of a airline labor union here. We can't tell the company how to do a G damn thing. The only thing we can to is file greivances...that takes years sometimes. I know being furloughed sucks. I've seen my household income go from 180k a year to ZERO for nearly 16 months after 9-11. I understand the high emotion but that DOES NOT give some of you carte blanche to run your ill-informed mouths off, blaming the "greedy pussies" at Alaska airlines. It isn't about greed, it's about protecting the heart of our contract and subsequently our....YOUR careers.

First of all, we need to wait and see what actually happens October 1st. There is always a chance that the company is using these guys as bait to open the contract...personally I don't believe that's what's going on, and if I was slated to be furloughed, I would plan on that actually happening but there is always a chance it won't. BTW, this WILL pass. There's nothing anybody can do about you being furloughed. Make a point out of trying to enjoy this free time in your life because it's time that you will NEVER get back...being miserable will not help you or your family.

BTW, I'm on the reserve bubble, took a 4 month leave this year, and have kept my line under 80 hrs for well over a year, and I gladly pay the medical assessments and will continue to do so until our LAST guy needs it.

Flame on.

BRAVO. To bad you will be attacked for using sound reasoning and logic.

 

[Ocity]

I'd like to see the company use all of the furlough mitigation language we ALREADY PAID for...like the lines at 75hrs. I have no idea how much benefit the company actually realizes from VSA. I don't know anybody who does it, and as for myself I have no idea even HOW to do it. I'd be glad to see VSA go away during furlough. I'd agree to that in a heart beat. When they get into 2nd step, (something they've wanted to get rid of for years...even in the good times) I have to pause. That is a QOL issue from the vast majority of the pilots here. I won't agree to that as step trading and furlough seem to have little to do with eachother.

After Kasher slit our throats, the company came to us with a contract offer. That offer was way worse that what Kasher did, and it failed by almost 90% This company has a long history of attempting to leverage pilot emotion to get back something they otherwise could never negotiate. I'm guessing there are some BOD members that are a little more than pissed that our contract passed by 84%. In their perfect world it would pass by 50.000001% I'm guessing they feel they've grossly overpaid and now they want a do-over holding pilots hostage. The bottom line is: The concession window is F-ing closed and opening that many sections of our new contract to ANY company interpretation...despite any written language, is equivilent to playing Russian Roulette.

Remember, this company does NOTHING that doesn't benefit them first. The fact that they issued a term sheet alone should send up the red flags. I hate to sound like a pessamistic, paranoid D-bag, but I submit that the collective wisdom of the pilot group...85% voting this MOU down, should indicate something. Some want it to indicate that Alaska Pilots eat their young. To me, it speaks volumes as to how much trust you can place in the hands of this management team...ZERO. FWIW, I have never heard anyone even mention the problem with this MOU being the $$$$. If it were just money they wanted then this thing would have passed. They don't want money, they want an opening to start dismantling the contract...a contract they feel they got burned on.

Sorry you're furloughed. Please believe I want you back here as much as, (i assume) you do.

 

[Fubijaakr]

BRAVO. Too bad you will be attacked for using sound reasoning and logic.

Amen.

I'd be glad to see VSA go away during furlough. I'd agree to that in a heart beat.

Again, amen. VSA needs to be automatically suspended the day the first furloughed guy hits the street and not available until he's back on the property.

When they get into 2nd step, (something they've wanted to get rid of for years...even in the good times) I have to pause. That is a QOL issue from the vast majority of the pilots here. I won't agree to that as step trading and furlough seem to have little to do with eachother.

Agreed. Our mid-level seniority guys cannot adjust their schedules during 1st step. And step trading has NOTHING to do with staffing.

Remember, this company does NOTHING that doesn't benefit them first. The fact that they issued a term sheet alone should send up the red flags. I hate to sound like a pessamistic, paranoid D-bag, but I submit that the collective wisdom of the pilot group...85% voting this MOU down, should indicate something.

As does the same percentage approving the contract. The major difference is the 16%ers are more vocal.

 

[Snapshot]

As long as my finances allow, we will continue to donate to the furlough fund.

Apparently you think that throwing a life preserver to a guy you just threw overboard makes you some sort of swell guy. I mean really, that's more than he deserves, right? He actually thinks he's entitled to a place on YOUR boat!

I had my reasons and just because one voted NO doesn't make him/her selfish or an idiot.

There would have been 30 less names on that list.
30 Families.
30 Mortgages.
100 or so PEOPLE.
Couple a dozen Children that will get to put the "Christmas that Daddy didn't have a job." in their memory bank.
Grown men that have to move in with In-laws.

I've got to know. What, exactly, are your reasons for selling them all down the river when you could've prevented it? What did you get in the trade? What do you now have that is worth what they have all lost?

Though I've never been furloughed since this is my first airline (hopefully last), I can relate to your frustrations and the fear of losing everything.

Sure thing, champ. Tell us more about how we're the entitlement generation. Second furlough and fifth airline here. Will you send me a PM and let me know when I've paid enough dues to be a part of your generation that "earned it"?

 

[General Lee]

So, what happened? Did AK furlough people today? On another board someone posted that they announced 52 more furloughs. That would be a shame....



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fubijaakr]

There are 52 more furloughs scheduled for Oct. 1. Of that 52, 6 are covered by LOAs and Military leaves. That leaves 46 actual pilots hitting the street in addition to the 60 that are already on furlough.

 

[Snapshot]

There's nothing anybody can do about you being furloughed.

You apparently didn't read the MOU. Not a "promise". A legal, binding, contract with very specific exit clauses and a very specific expiration date.
Yeah, being furloughed is a fact of many pilot lives. Yeah, the company should have stepped up and done the right thing. Guess what. They didn't. They put it in your hands. You didn't either.

I'd be glad to see VSA go away during furlough. I'd agree to that in a heart beat.

Really? You had an opportunity to not only do that (the 150% incentive), but also save 30 families and you passed.

Agreed. Our mid-level seniority guys cannot adjust their schedules during 1st step. And step trading has NOTHING to do with staffing.

Wow, that must suck. The mid-level guys not being able to adjust their schedules for a few months!?! The Horror! That pencils out to about one family you've thrown under the bus for every 2 weeks of scheduling adjust-ability for the Mid-level guys that actually use second step.

 

[Fubijaakr]

That's the thing about MemRat. 84% of the pilot group wasn't willing to gut the contract.

 

[Snapshot]

Some of you guys are WAY out of line attacking the pilot group. Ask you friends at other airlines how many furlough mitigation programs they have at other airlines.

We don't need to. Most of us have worked at enough other airlines with strong, dedicated pilot groups to make valid judgements. Having mitigation programs doesn't mean a thing if you VOTE AGAINST implementing them.

Remember, this company does NOTHING that doesn't benefit them first.

Neither does the vast majority of the individual pilots.

Y'all love to regale us with tales of it being an epic struggle against management. It is. The thing you're missing is that it isn't YOU against them, its US against them. You just abandoned 30 families behind enemy lines.
This is the same bunch of guys who sit around all day wailing that Allegiant and Virgin are undercutting them and destroying their ability to earn.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

Snap,
You need some love and counseling; man, you really have snapped. With your comments, I can't differentiate between you and the selfish VSAing 60+ geezers - me me me. Do you have experience with how this management operates? If not, please shut your cake hole.
If you get furloughed, do the rest of the furloughed/soon to be furloughed brothers and bypass SK's furlough $$$. You squeal louder than a stuck pig!

 

[Snapshot]

Snap,
You need some love

All 30 of those families did.

I can't differentiate between you and the selfish VSAing 60+ geezers - me me me.

That one's already been answered:

Senior/VSA guy: "It's more important for me to make some extra money than it is for you to make any money"

Still waiting for your answer..................................................

There would have been 30 less names on that list. (NOT me, me, me)
30 Families.
30 Mortgages.
100 or so PEOPLE.
Couple a dozen Children that will get to put the "Christmas that Daddy didn't have a job." in their memory bank.
Grown men that have to move in with In-laws.

I've got to know. What, exactly, are your reasons for selling them all down the river when you could've prevented it? What did you get in the trade? What do you now have that is worth what they have all lost?

If not, please shut your cake hole. You squeal louder than a stuck pig!

You never know, maybe the Mods will give you an opportunity to vote me off the property. Maybe you'd sit there and tell a guy it's no big deal that he just voted away your livelihood, but not me. This is the consequences of your actions.

 

[Wally]

All in favor?

Snap,
You need some love and counseling; man, you really have snapped. With your comments, I can't differentiate between you and the selfish VSAing 60+ geezers - me me me. Do you have experience with how this management operates? If not, please shut your cake hole.
If you get furloughed, do the rest of the furloughed/soon to be furloughed brothers and bypass SK's furlough $$$. You squeal louder than a stuck pig!

I second the motion.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Give Snap a break. His heart is in the right place. It his hyperbolic rhetoric that undermines his message.

 

[Going2Baja]

Snap,
You need some love and counseling; man, you really have snapped. With your comments, I can't differentiate between you and the selfish VSAing 60+ geezers - me me me. Do you have experience with how this management operates? If not, please shut your cake hole.
If you get furloughed, do the rest of the furloughed/soon to be furloughed brothers and bypass SK's furlough $$$. You squeal louder than a stuck pig!

I agree w/ Snap 100%....If I didn't have to get asleep to cover my 4th turn in a row and wake up @230a I'd type a little. It's coming - don't you worry. But I can tell you, after 6 furloughs & 6 airlines...This is the WORST most SELF centered pilot group I have worked for. Nuf said - If I could leave for the same $$ - I would. Eat your young...what a joke! 24 to go..look out!

Baja.

 

[Fubijaakr]

If I hated the people I worked with that much, Baja, I'd go work somewhere else.

 

[Snapshot]

I second the motion.

The guy that hatesyesmen won't answer. Maybe you will.


There would have been 30 less names on that list.
30 Families.
30 Mortgages.
100 or so PEOPLE.
Couple a dozen Children that will get to put the "Christmas that Daddy didn't have a job." in their memory bank.
Grown men that have to move in with In-laws.

I've got to know. What, exactly, are your reasons for selling them all down the river when you could've prevented it? What did you get in the trade? What do you now have that is worth what they have all lost?

No hyperbole here. I'm not claiming y'all did anything other that exactly what you've done. If that clashes with whatever you tell yourself to make it seem like it didn't happen, that's on you.

 

[QCappy]

There's nothing anybody can do about you being furloughed. Make a point out of trying to enjoy this free time in your life because it's time that you will NEVER get back...being miserable will not help you or your family.

OK, I'll flame.

So I'm supposed to enjoy a time where my family lost it's entire income, I have to scrape by just to make ends meet, and hoping the next call is the one that will bring me back. I see.

Well, in that case, I'll give you a call from the multiple carnivals in various cities around the world that I'm going to visit during my happy time off.

Give me a break.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

The guy that hatesyesmen won't answer. Maybe you will.


There would have been 30 less names on that list.
30 Families.
30 Mortgages.
100 or so PEOPLE.
Couple a dozen Children that will get to put the "Christmas that Daddy didn't have a job." in their memory bank.
Grown men that have to move in with In-laws.

I've got to know. What, exactly, are your reasons for selling them all down the river when you could've prevented it? What did you get in the trade? What do you now have that is worth what they have all lost?

Re-read my earlier post. I believe I've stated my reasons. It's your right to feel the way you do and it's fine that you and a good majority of us don't see eye to eye on this issue. However, it's far reaching to claim that we as a pilot group sold you down the river. The lines for next month are already in the 75-83 hours range and yet the company decided to furlough 50+ FOs and downgrade 13 captains. Catch a clue! This MOU wasn't about furlough mitigation; again, re-read my earlier post. If you had a clue on how this management operates, you would think otherwise. Just understand that everytime our management moves their lips, they are lying. I understand that it's difficult to think and see straight when the world around you is imploding. It seems that whatever I or anyone say won't penetrate your noggin; you are full of piss and vinegar. I'm sorry that you have to live your life blaming others for your misery. That just is pitiful. It's a done deal and you have no control over it; you can either drive yourself insane or you can deal with it; your choice. Chill out and enjoy what you have left. Many of my buds have been furloughed, lost their homes and marriages as result, and none of them have cried like you pu$$ies!
I'll open a can of worms here now that you got me going. For a period of time, Alaska Airlines hired Horizon FOs with no PIC turbine time and other low time/low experience pilots. I remember having Skywest jumpseaters tell me that they were losing low time, newly upgraded captains to us. I fly with many captains whom express genuine concern that many of the new hires are weak sticks and that the captains feel like they are conducting OE on every leg. Why do you suppose that our management targeted this group of pilots when there are highly qualified surplus of pilots out there? Can you say "hostages"? If you claim ignorance on this issue, you've got some serious IQ problems.
As for "Couple a dozen Children that will get to put the Christmas that Daddy didn't have a job in their memory bank. Grown men that have to move in with In-laws." comment....... atleast these children have daddys. Think of the thousands of children who's daddys have made the ultimate sacrifice for this country.

 

[Tatoosh65]

That last post was a real piece of work..
Real classy bud..

 

[Mamma]

As for "Couple a dozen Children that will get to put the Christmas that Daddy didn't have a job in their memory bank. Grown men that have to move in with In-laws." comment....... atleast these children have daddys. Think of the thousands of children who's daddys have made the ultimate sacrifice for this country.

Dude,
This post is retarded. You are trying to compare children of fathers who lost their jobs to children who lost their dads in war? WTFO?

I hear over 200 pilots over 88 hours this month. Really nice with 60 guys on the street. They sure care about the guys on the street.

Oh, and to all you guys who say furloughs are a part of airline life. Next time a vote comes, how about all us bottom dwellers vote out your pension! Getting rid of pensions is a part of airline life...just ask United, Delta and US Air. Based on your arguments you should have no problem with this since it is a part of "airline life."

 

[Ocity]

OK, I'll flame.

So I'm supposed to enjoy a time where my family lost it's entire income, I have to scrape by just to make ends meet, and hoping the next call is the one that will bring me back. I see.

Well, in that case, I'll give you a call from the multiple carnivals in various cities around the world that I'm going to visit during my happy time off.

Give me a break.

The time will pass whether you want it too or not. You'll never see that time again. Do with it what you will.

 

[Boxboy]

Haven't posted on this forum in a while but oh man, where's the luuuuuuv? The MOU is history kids, get over it!

mamma,
Easy there, brotha. I know you are pissed but c'mon man. The pilot group didn't furlough, the company did. You are pissin' into the wind. So, you want to take that anger out on the your own brothas? Just because the MOU didn't go your way doesn't give you right to piss on the majority. I'm one of the 199ers but I respect the majority rule. Like it or not, the airline profession is ALL about SENIORITY. As greedy as some these senior dudes are, you nor I have the right to knock these guys (ok, most guys) because they too have paid their dues. No one forced you to leave the military or the reginonals to come to Alaska. We all knew it was a gamble, especially post 9/11, for a better job/quality of life. It's just the times and some of us jumped in at the wrong time. My squadron buds thought I was insane when I put my paperwork in to get out just after 9/11. I knew what I was getting into.

 

[mach none]

Dude,
This post is retarded. You are trying to compare children of fathers who lost their jobs to children who lost their dads in war? WTFO?

I hear over 200 pilots over 88 hours this month. Really nice with 60 guys on the street. They sure care about the guys on the street.

Oh, and to all you guys who say furloughs are a part of airline life. Next time a vote comes, how about all us bottom dwellers vote out your pension! Getting rid of pensions is a part of airline life...just ask United, Delta and US Air. Based on your arguments you should have no problem with this since it is a part of "airline life."

WWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

I picture you holding your breath and stomping your feet.

Grow up. It is over. If you carry this torch to long you will destroy your health, marriage and your job.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

. . . and, with that death spiral, I suggest we close this thread.

 

[Mamma]

Seems you are missing my point. First, The MOU is not my problem. That was a piece of trash. My point is if we had been acting like union members this MOU would have never surfaced. If so many did not lean so far forward to help the company with VSA and 88+ hour months maybe not as many guys would have been chopped.

As for me I could care less what the company does to
me. I am out on mil leave and wife has a good job. I have flown maybe 30 hours for Alaska since Jan. Not everyone has this especially many that were in my new hire class so I care about them. So yes I get a little emotional when I see them about to lose big while their fellow pilots are doing their flying.

 

[Snapshot]

Wow.
Given a chance to save 30 guys from furlough, you vote them off of property because it's just too inconvenient and you want to send a message. Tell them to suck it up and that it's just a part of airline life (even though it has conveniently never been a part of YOUR life). Call them whiners and pussies when your actions get called what they are. Top it all off by telling them it doesn't matter because they are lousy, sub-par pilots.
You're a real piece of work.
BTW. When I think about the children of soldiers (talk about hyperbolic rhetoric!), I know that if I were given an opportunity to vote to help their families, I would vote to do it.

Catch a clue! This MOU wasn't about furlough mitigation

The furlough mitigation MOU that would have mitigated 30 furloughs wasn't about furlough mitigation? Sure thing.

Just understand that everytime our management moves their lips, they are lying.

Exactly why you get a legal document with very specific obligations, exit clauses, and expiration date. Sorta sounds like the MOU, doesn't it?

I'm sorry that you have to live your life blaming others for your misery. That just is pitiful.

Really? Holding people accountable for their actions is pitiful? That makes you all a batch of pitiful SOB's. Every day I hear you blaming the company for your miseries. I know, it's not pitiful when their YOUR miseries, right?

The MOU is history kids, get over it!

So is Kasher. You gonna forget what the company did to you and pretend it's all cool?

Many of my buds have been furloughed, lost their homes and marriages as result, and none of them have cried like you pu$$ies!

First. I'm not even talking about a furlough. I'm talking about a pilot group that had a chance to save 30 guys and didn't. Tell your buddies what you've done and see what they say. You'll stop hearing about it the second we stop hearing about Kasher from you guys. Of course, it's not 'whining like a pu$$y' when it's you've been wronged, is it?

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

Some people never get it. Bye bye!