Article on FAA Rest Rules

[tailwindz]

Why because only int'l wide bodies experience fatigue

No, because of this.

How about a P-3 24 hours of duty, 17 hours of flight time, no stops, three pilots 0100 to 0100 the next day. Does that count? How about a DA-20 18 hours duty, 11 hours flight time to six stops in two different foreign countries with two pilots. Does that count? Or does it have to be in wide body, with crew rest station to experience fatigue?

and when you ad more cost, less people purchase the product. May be very good for senior peo0ple, not so good for everyone else

Since when do you need a wide body to augment or put a bunk in it?

You just need a company and flight department management that does not have their head where yours apparently is. Or the FAA to get theirs out.

 

[Birddog]

You can not be scheduled for more than 14 hours, but when offered the chance to come home from MMIO, at 1900 after being on duty of 13 hours. You determine if you are capable of doing the job. I you got a good nights rest, a two hour nap at CYHM while waiting for cargo, be home by 0000, I am going for it. There are other days that you will be fatigued 7 hours into the flight. There is no one set of rules that will cover all fatigue rules. Crews will still fly fatigued, and many times like the crew on 3407, they do it to themselves.

This doesn't really help your argument, as you chose to fly tired for convenience sake. It demonstrates that a crew's judgement may be impaired by fatigue and and therefore cannot always be trusted. Studies have found that driving fatigued has the function equivalent of driving while intoxicated. And while you may be able to tolerate the occasional long day every once and and while, it will not work for weeks on end.

More days resting may be the answer, along with duty limits and better structured rest. You cannot say our current regs have a lot of scientific backing or logical structure. It will raise the cost of doing business, but not a significant amount. As to customers choosing not to buy our product, that is only a tertiary concern. No one wants to use air freight. It is the most expensive form of transportation available. If train, truck, ship, or bicycle messenger would get the job done, shippers would use them. They only call us when they have no other choice or when the delay is more expensive than the shipping.

 

[EngineThunder]

This doesn't really help your argument, as you chose to fly tired for convenience sake. It demonstrates that a crew's judgement may be impaired by fatigue and and therefore cannot always be trusted. Studies have found that driving fatigued has the function equivalent of driving while intoxicated. And while you may be able to tolerate the occasional long day every once and and while, it will not work for weeks on end.

More days resting may be the answer, along with duty limits and better structured rest. You cannot say our current regs have a lot of scientific backing or logical structure. It will raise the cost of doing business, but not a significant amount. As to customers choosing not to buy our product, that is only a tertiary concern. No one wants to use air freight. It is the most
expensive form of transportation available. If train, truck, ship, or bicycle messenger would get the job done, shippers would use them. They only call us when they have no other choice or when the delay is more expensive than the shipping.[/QUOTE

If yip had a college degree he would have known better than to accept an 18 hour day Glad everything went well on the way back from mmio. The FAA would have put a real hurt on USAJET if it didn't.

 

[thunderworm]

At my old company 121 cargo flying the back side our DO encouraged cat naps on flights. 1hr out the guy flying got 30min rest to do what he wanted to feel fresh for the approach is what we normally did. I liked it and feel napping when the other guy is feeling good is a good idea. Its amazing how much better and more alert someone is after a 15 min nap even if it isn't really sleep.

 

[pilotyip]

At my old company 121 cargo flying the back side our DO encouraged cat naps on flights. 1hr out the guy flying got 30min rest to do what he wanted to feel fresh for the approach is what we normally did. I liked it and feel napping when the other guy is feeling good is a good idea. Its amazing how much better and more alert someone is after a 15 min nap even if it isn't really sleep.

thank you, a crew taking matters in their owns hands to manage fatigue.

If yip had a college degree he would have known better than to accept an 18 hour day Glad everything went well on the way back from mmio. The FAA would have put a real hurt on USAJET if it didn't.

You know I have coupel coolege dergees, and I still cna't speel. The trip was legal, I was rested, and I would not have taken the trip if I did not feel I could complete it safety, any more than I would take trip after 8 hours of duty if I felt it could not be completed safely.

BTW I agree there are changes to be made to improve rest, but my contention that no one appears to be paying any attention to, is this there are no rest rules that will keep a crew non-fatigued at all times. This is particularly true when crossing multi-time zones, changing sleep/wake cycles, and going from a daytime routine at home to a night time routine at night. I have been there and done that early in my career flying night cargo out of the KDAY sort.

 

[HA25]

thank you, a crew taking matters in their owns hands to manage fatigue.

and risking violation, falling asleep and missing critical calls, or navigation... but that's fine, cause it's all done in the name of keeping costs down! 10% unemployment rate be damned!

 

[pilotyip]

and risking violation, falling asleep and missing critical calls, or navigation... but that's fine, cause it's all done in the name of keeping costs down! 10% unemployment rate be damned!

What critical calls are there at FL350 while cruising for 6 hours? The real danger is missing the critical call while on the approach. In the late 80's the NTSB did a study of sleep in the cockpit, looking at instances of “Micro Napping”. This where you have no control over falling asleep and just nod off due to being fatigued. What they found was at int'l carriers where controlled napping was allowed in cruise, there were no instances of Micro napping from start of descent to the gate. On US Air carriers there was 147 cases of Micro Napping from the start of descent to the gate. Including 4 cases of micro napping where both pilots dropped off at the same time. The danger is not missing the call because of controlled napping in cruise, but missing the call because of uncontrolled napping after the start of descent. BTW the FAA rejected the NTSB recommendation of setting napping policy, because it was un-American to sleep on the job.

 

[HA25]

What critical calls are there at FL350 while cruising for 6 hours?

Well, when you're at FL350 over Turkey and about to cross into Iran, a critical call might be to "Defense Radar" to insure they don't SHOOT you down... just as an example... YOU initiate that call.. There are hundreds more examples where being alert is critical.

The real danger is missing the critical call while on the approach. In the late 80's the NTSB did a study of sleep in the cockpit, looking at instances of “Micro Napping”. This where you have no control over falling asleep and just nod off due to being fatigued. What they found was at int'l carriers where controlled napping was allowed in cruise, there were no instances of Micro napping from start of descent to the gate. On US Air carriers there was 147 cases of Micro Napping from the start of descent to the gate. Including 4 cases of micro napping where both pilots dropped off at the same time. The danger is not missing the call because of controlled napping in cruise, but missing the call because of uncontrolled napping after the start of descent. BTW the FAA rejected the NTSB recommendation of setting napping policy, because it was un-American to sleep on the job.

I'm not opposed to codifying power napping as a solution to chronic fatigue should a pilot find themselves, despite proper rest being tired... I AM however against using this as a solution (They way you seem to imply) to the broken and dangerous "rest" rules we have today in place for the 121 sups..

 

[Birddog]

BTW I agree there are changes to be made to improve rest, but my contention that no one appears to be paying any attention to, is this there are no rest rules that will keep a crew non-fatigued at all times.

We can certainly reduce fatigue to far less dangerous levels, and it doesn't have to bankrupt the airlines either. Just because we can't be perfect is no excuse not to do better. Power napping is a tool, but it is nothing close to a comprehensive solution. Cruise is certainly no time to let your guard down. If you do, you might miss the fact that #3 is starting to lose oil and you better shut it down before it seizes.

 

[pilotyip]

We can certainly reduce fatigue to far less dangerous levels, and it doesn't have to bankrupt the airlines either. Just because we can't be perfect is no excuse not to do better. Power napping is a tool, but it is nothing close to a comprehensive solution. Cruise is certainly no time to let your guard down. If you do, you might miss the fact that #3 is starting to lose oil and you better shut it down before it seizes.

You are right the Iran boarder is a place to be awake, however 40W in the N Atlantic is kinda quite, remember we do this to prevent both guys doing napping together and uncontrolled, yes it could be part of a bigger solution. BTW The other pilot who is awake can not see the oil gage?