Article on FAA Rest Rules

[tailwindz]

Why because only int'l wide bodies experience fatigue

No, because of this.

How about a P-3 24 hours of duty, 17 hours of flight time, no stops, three pilots 0100 to 0100 the next day. Does that count? How about a DA-20 18 hours duty, 11 hours flight time to six stops in two different foreign countries with two pilots. Does that count? Or does it have to be in wide body, with crew rest station to experience fatigue?

and when you ad more cost, less people purchase the product. May be very good for senior peo0ple, not so good for everyone else

Since when do you need a wide body to augment or put a bunk in it?

You just need a company and flight department management that does not have their head where yours apparently is. Or the FAA to get theirs out.

 

[Birddog]

You can not be scheduled for more than 14 hours, but when offered the chance to come home from MMIO, at 1900 after being on duty of 13 hours. You determine if you are capable of doing the job. I you got a good nights rest, a two hour nap at CYHM while waiting for cargo, be home by 0000, I am going for it. There are other days that you will be fatigued 7 hours into the flight. There is no one set of rules that will cover all fatigue rules. Crews will still fly fatigued, and many times like the crew on 3407, they do it to themselves.

This doesn't really help your argument, as you chose to fly tired for convenience sake. It demonstrates that a crew's judgement may be impaired by fatigue and and therefore cannot always be trusted. Studies have found that driving fatigued has the function equivalent of driving while intoxicated. And while you may be able to tolerate the occasional long day every once and and while, it will not work for weeks on end.

More days resting may be the answer, along with duty limits and better structured rest. You cannot say our current regs have a lot of scientific backing or logical structure. It will raise the cost of doing business, but not a significant amount. As to customers choosing not to buy our product, that is only a tertiary concern. No one wants to use air freight. It is the most expensive form of transportation available. If train, truck, ship, or bicycle messenger would get the job done, shippers would use them. They only call us when they have no other choice or when the delay is more expensive than the shipping.

 

[EngineThunder]

This doesn't really help your argument, as you chose to fly tired for convenience sake. It demonstrates that a crew's judgement may be impaired by fatigue and and therefore cannot always be trusted. Studies have found that driving fatigued has the function equivalent of driving while intoxicated. And while you may be able to tolerate the occasional long day every once and and while, it will not work for weeks on end.

More days resting may be the answer, along with duty limits and better structured rest. You cannot say our current regs have a lot of scientific backing or logical structure. It will raise the cost of doing business, but not a significant amount. As to customers choosing not to buy our product, that is only a tertiary concern. No one wants to use air freight. It is the most
expensive form of transportation available. If train, truck, ship, or bicycle messenger would get the job done, shippers would use them. They only call us when they have no other choice or when the delay is more expensive than the shipping.[/QUOTE

If yip had a college degree he would have known better than to accept an 18 hour day Glad everything went well on the way back from mmio. The FAA would have put a real hurt on USAJET if it didn't.

 

[thunderworm]

At my old company 121 cargo flying the back side our DO encouraged cat naps on flights. 1hr out the guy flying got 30min rest to do what he wanted to feel fresh for the approach is what we normally did. I liked it and feel napping when the other guy is feeling good is a good idea. Its amazing how much better and more alert someone is after a 15 min nap even if it isn't really sleep.

 

[pilotyip]

At my old company 121 cargo flying the back side our DO encouraged cat naps on flights. 1hr out the guy flying got 30min rest to do what he wanted to feel fresh for the approach is what we normally did. I liked it and feel napping when the other guy is feeling good is a good idea. Its amazing how much better and more alert someone is after a 15 min nap even if it isn't really sleep.

thank you, a crew taking matters in their owns hands to manage fatigue.

If yip had a college degree he would have known better than to accept an 18 hour day Glad everything went well on the way back from mmio. The FAA would have put a real hurt on USAJET if it didn't.

You know I have coupel coolege dergees, and I still cna't speel. The trip was legal, I was rested, and I would not have taken the trip if I did not feel I could complete it safety, any more than I would take trip after 8 hours of duty if I felt it could not be completed safely.

BTW I agree there are changes to be made to improve rest, but my contention that no one appears to be paying any attention to, is this there are no rest rules that will keep a crew non-fatigued at all times. This is particularly true when crossing multi-time zones, changing sleep/wake cycles, and going from a daytime routine at home to a night time routine at night. I have been there and done that early in my career flying night cargo out of the KDAY sort.

 

[HA25]

thank you, a crew taking matters in their owns hands to manage fatigue.

and risking violation, falling asleep and missing critical calls, or navigation... but that's fine, cause it's all done in the name of keeping costs down! 10% unemployment rate be damned!

 

[pilotyip]

and risking violation, falling asleep and missing critical calls, or navigation... but that's fine, cause it's all done in the name of keeping costs down! 10% unemployment rate be damned!

What critical calls are there at FL350 while cruising for 6 hours? The real danger is missing the critical call while on the approach. In the late 80's the NTSB did a study of sleep in the cockpit, looking at instances of “Micro Napping”. This where you have no control over falling asleep and just nod off due to being fatigued. What they found was at int'l carriers where controlled napping was allowed in cruise, there were no instances of Micro napping from start of descent to the gate. On US Air carriers there was 147 cases of Micro Napping from the start of descent to the gate. Including 4 cases of micro napping where both pilots dropped off at the same time. The danger is not missing the call because of controlled napping in cruise, but missing the call because of uncontrolled napping after the start of descent. BTW the FAA rejected the NTSB recommendation of setting napping policy, because it was un-American to sleep on the job.

 

[HA25]

What critical calls are there at FL350 while cruising for 6 hours?

Well, when you're at FL350 over Turkey and about to cross into Iran, a critical call might be to "Defense Radar" to insure they don't SHOOT you down... just as an example... YOU initiate that call.. There are hundreds more examples where being alert is critical.

The real danger is missing the critical call while on the approach. In the late 80's the NTSB did a study of sleep in the cockpit, looking at instances of “Micro Napping”. This where you have no control over falling asleep and just nod off due to being fatigued. What they found was at int'l carriers where controlled napping was allowed in cruise, there were no instances of Micro napping from start of descent to the gate. On US Air carriers there was 147 cases of Micro Napping from the start of descent to the gate. Including 4 cases of micro napping where both pilots dropped off at the same time. The danger is not missing the call because of controlled napping in cruise, but missing the call because of uncontrolled napping after the start of descent. BTW the FAA rejected the NTSB recommendation of setting napping policy, because it was un-American to sleep on the job.

I'm not opposed to codifying power napping as a solution to chronic fatigue should a pilot find themselves, despite proper rest being tired... I AM however against using this as a solution (They way you seem to imply) to the broken and dangerous "rest" rules we have today in place for the 121 sups..

 

[Birddog]

BTW I agree there are changes to be made to improve rest, but my contention that no one appears to be paying any attention to, is this there are no rest rules that will keep a crew non-fatigued at all times.

We can certainly reduce fatigue to far less dangerous levels, and it doesn't have to bankrupt the airlines either. Just because we can't be perfect is no excuse not to do better. Power napping is a tool, but it is nothing close to a comprehensive solution. Cruise is certainly no time to let your guard down. If you do, you might miss the fact that #3 is starting to lose oil and you better shut it down before it seizes.

 

[pilotyip]

We can certainly reduce fatigue to far less dangerous levels, and it doesn't have to bankrupt the airlines either. Just because we can't be perfect is no excuse not to do better. Power napping is a tool, but it is nothing close to a comprehensive solution. Cruise is certainly no time to let your guard down. If you do, you might miss the fact that #3 is starting to lose oil and you better shut it down before it seizes.

You are right the Iran boarder is a place to be awake, however 40W in the N Atlantic is kinda quite, remember we do this to prevent both guys doing napping together and uncontrolled, yes it could be part of a bigger solution. BTW The other pilot who is awake can not see the oil gage?

 

[Birddog]

Nope, its back on the engineer's panel. Its hard enough to keep them awake on a regular basis. And 40W can be quiet, until its busy, and you actually have to stay awake and do what you are being paid to do. The nap time idea can help, but if that is the only significant change offered to 121 sup, then I would just as soon hold out for the same rules everyone else gets and take my chances.

 

[can99]

Did I miss something " get some real experience and then come back with an intelligent response."

Isnt that the main part of thewhole discussion here, different plans, different experiences, all need different rules.

FYI if you want to read some interesting scientific (yes apparently) rest rules, have a read of the Indian rules I have to deal with! Its mind blowing... http://dgca.nic.in/cars/d7j-j3.pdf

 

[pilotyip]

Nope, its back on the engineer's panel. Its hard enough to keep them awake on a regular basis. And 40W can be quiet, until its busy, and you actually have to stay awake and do what you are being paid to do. The nap time idea can help, but if that is the only significant change offered to 121 sup, then I would just as soon hold out for the same rules everyone else gets and take my chances.

That what was nice about the L-188, the F/E could nap, which for some was like an auto nap switch attached to the gear handle. The FE panel was between the two pilots, so we could both see the oil pressure. And yes controlled napping, as oposed to uncontrolled napping that we have now, is only part of a larger solution. But nothing can ever remove all fatigue from night time flying, well except drugs. I have heard the military used go/no-go pills to allow their crews to pull off these 35 hours missions.

 

[bizjet800]

btw, I love how you're lecturing a 747 pilot who ACTUALLY flies all over the world, into Afghanistan and far flung places on 20+ hour duty day flights... meanwhile you're flying bugsmashers...

get some real experience and then come back with an intelligent response.

He's not even a pilot.

 

[thunderworm]

maybe I was misunderstood. The napping we did was only if the non-flying pilot felt awake and wouldn't mind flying for 30 min to give the flying guy a break. If the non-flying pilot was very tired and couldn't stay awake he would get a nap before the 1 hr mark so he could relieve the flying guy for 30 min. If neither thought this was a good idea it didn't happen and we both flew the last 1hr tired and fighting sleep, but this is what the FAA and apparently some pilots want anyways. I am not saying this example should be a rule it was just something we as a crew decided to do. I do not have he answer but I feel that the system in place now isn't working.

 

[b19]

Yip maybe you can explain one of the great duty day mysteries to me :

Why is a 4 man crew with adequate rest facilities under 121 supp limited to a 30 hour duty day, and with no rest facilities limited to a 20 hour day, but

There is no duty limit for a 3 man crew.

Please explain why 3 people dont get as tired as 4 or have any duty limits by FAR.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip maybe you can explain one of the great duty day mysteries to me :

Why is a 4 man crew with adequate rest facilities under 121 supp limited to a 30 hour duty day, and with no rest facilities limited to a 20 hour day, but

There is no duty limit for a 3 man crew.

Please explain why 3 people dont get as tired as 4 or have any duty limits by FAR.

not my job, who ever said all FAA regs make sense. The capabilites of the airplanes have moved beyound what he FAA had in mind when the regs were drawn up. But the old regs still drive the agenda. That is why change is needed. But there are no rules, short of banning all flying between 2200L and 0800L that will eliminate all fatigue in the cockpit.

 

[densoo]

Perhaps the FAA might be interested in a study that shows drowsy people operating a vehicle is unsafe. Perhaps not.

Nearly one-third (32 percent) of American drivers admitted to drowsy driving in the past month, even though 96 percent of the respondents said drowsy driving is an unacceptable behavior.

The poll by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety was released to coincide with this year's Drowsy Driving Prevention Week, Nov. 6 to 12, hosted by the foundation, the AAA and the National Sleep Foundation.

Drowsy driving can have serious consequences. These drivers are involved in one of every six deadly crashes and one in eight crashes resulting in serious injury, according to a study released last year by the AAA Foundation.

"Although the vast majority of drivers recognize the serious threat of drowsy driving, a 'do as I say, not as I do' attitude exists when getting behind the wheel.

Drowsy driving kills, just as sure as drunk, drugged and distracted driving does," AAA Foundation president and CEO Peter Kissinger said in a foundation news release. "Drivers have a tendency to underestimate the impact being tired has on their driving ability, which puts themselves and others at risk."

http://yourlife.usatoday.com/health...g-unacceptable-but-one-third-do-it/51169908/1

 

[thunderworm]

good point. At one company I was at during recurrent training they showed us a video on two groups of people. One group legally drunk and the other awake for 24hrs. Then they had the two groups drive a car on an obstacle course and not their reaction times. there was no difference in the two groups reaction times showing that it is just as dangerous to be tired as drunk. After the video we asked why we fly a certain route that makes us all very tired; they said "well, its legal".

 

[pilotyip]

good point. At one company I was at during recurrent training they showed us a video on two groups of people. One group legally drunk and the other awake for 24hrs. Then they had the two groups drive a car on an obstacle course and not their reaction times. there was no difference in the two groups reaction times showing that it is just as dangerous to be tired as drunk. After the video we asked why we fly a certain route that makes us all very tired; they said "well, its legal".

and the solution? no flying between 2200L and 0800L, everyone 8 hours behind closed doors, never ever be a a fatigue problem again, right? BTW How come we fall asleep in ground school after lunch after only being up for 4.5 hours, must be a fatigue problem