Article on FAA Rest Rules

[pilotyip]

Just not true. You can address the issue. You might still be tired, but a lot less tired if you're not allowed to fly 4 legs in the middle of the night. Shorten the max duty period if on the back side of the clock. Rules can address the issue or make it worse.

Read above, I said that was a good rule that time on the back side of the clock count for double, I think something like that was proposed that time between 0100 and 0400 count as double duty, or something like that. If called out at 2300 your first day back to work, when you have not slept in 14 hours and then fly until 0900 the next morning even under those rules, you are still fatigued. BTW Does anyone support controlled napping in the cockpit, such as allowed in many other countries? A proven fatigued relief, and all of those who fly on the back side of the clock know it. Or is this about more pilot to do the smae work so you can move up that list and grab a CA's seat?

 

[tailwindz]

Read above, I said that was a good rule that time on the back side of the clock count for double, I think something like that was proposed that time between 0100 and 0400 count as double duty, or something like that. If called out at 2300 your first day back to work, when you have not slept in 14 hours and then fly until 0900 the next morning even under those rules, you are still fatigued. BTW Does anyone support controlled napping in the cockpit, such as allowed in many other countries? A proven fatigued relief, and all of those who fly on the back side of the clock know it. Or is this about more pilot to do the smae work so you can move up that list and grab a CA's seat?

I support "NAPPING" in a bunk! If it takes more pilots so we can all get sleep while doing the job, so be it. The cost of doing business.

 

[HA25]

I support "NAPPING" in a bunk! If it takes more pilots so we can all get sleep while doing the job, so be it. The cost of doing business.

Yip is a guy who's never had to show up to a wide body jumbo at 10PM local and begin a trip with a SCHEDULED 18 hour duty day, two legs and 12 hours of flight time from one third world country to another. All this after working on a totally different clock two days before. Your wasting your time arguing with him.

 

[Birddog]

BTW Does anyone support controlled napping in the cockpit, such as allowed in many other countries? A proven fatigued relief, and all of those who fly on the back side of the clock know it.

I think it is a good idea, and think it will help, but I do not support any extension of duty time or justifying longer duty periods based on its use. There are too many things that can occur that will either keep you from sleeping or require you to stay awake to bank on being able to bank on it.

What I would support are rest periods that are based on circadian rhythms actual research. If it were up to me, I would not allow any 20 to 28 hour layovers if you have crossed more than 3 time zones. 12 to 14 hours is great, and 30 is too, but around that 24 hour mark you are going to work right when you are ready to go back to sleep.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip is a guy who's never had to show up to a wide body jumbo at 10PM local and begin a trip with a SCHEDULED 18 hour duty day, two legs and 12 hours of flight time from one third world country to another. All this after working on a totally different clock two days before. Your wasting your time arguing with him.

How about a P-3 24 hours of duty, 17 hours of flight time, no stops, three pilots 0100 to 0100 the next day. Does that count? How about a DA-20 18 hours duty, 11 hours flight time to six stops in two different foreign countries with two pilots. Does that count? Or does it have to be in wide body, with crew rest station to experience fatigue?

I support "NAPPING" in a bunk! If it takes more pilots so we can all get sleep while doing the job, so be it. The cost of doing business.

and when you ad more cost, less people purchase the product. May be very good for senior peo0ple, not so good for everyone else

 

[Nevergreen]

How about a P-3 24 hours of duty, 17 hours of flight time, no stops, three pilots 0100 to 0100 the next day. Does that count? How about a DA-20 18 hours duty, 11 hours flight time to six stops in two different foreign countries with two pilots. Does that count? Or does it have to be in wide body, with crew rest station to experience fatigue?

Yip,

So you are saying that is safe? Are you saying that should be allowed? Are you saying that a companies profits should be more important the health and safety of a crew or passengers?

I regularly work 18 + hour duty days on the 747-200. Are you saying that the owner of my company should expect me to sacrifice my health and safety so that his profit margin should be 1% higher or less?

We need reasonable and safe FT/DT. What we have now is not even close.

If the industry is so concerned with our health and safety; where is their counter proposal? All the industry wants to do is to keep the ridiculous system we have now.

If we all operate under the same rules, then no company will have an advantage over another.

 

[tailwindz]

How about a P-3 24 hours of duty, 17 hours of flight time, no stops, three pilots 0100 to 0100 the next day. Does that count? How about a DA-20 18 hours duty, 11 hours flight time to six stops in two different foreign countries with two pilots. Does that count? Or does it have to be in wide body, with crew rest station to experience fatigue?

That sounds stupid.

 

[HA25]

How about a P-3 24 hours of duty, 17 hours of flight time, no stops, three pilots 0100 to 0100 the next day. Does that count? How about a DA-20 18 hours duty, 11 hours flight time to six stops in two different foreign countries with two pilots. Does that count? Or does it have to be in wide body, with crew rest station to experience fatigue?

the rare occasional military mission doesn't count.. I know we did some during war time, as well... I'm talking about routine schedules.

And if you schedule 18 hour days in a DA20 at the place you work, with 2 man crews, then you REALLY are bigger bottom feeder than I ever gave you credit for.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip,

So you are saying..........er the same rules, then no company will have an advantage over another.

I was only responding to a statement I never get to experience fatigue. There are other places besides int'l wide bodies that experience fatigue.

That sounds stupid.

Why because only int'l wide bodies experience fatigue

And if you schedule 18 hour days in a DA20 at the place you work, with 2 man crews, then you REALLY are bigger bottom feeder than I ever gave you credit for.

You can not be scheduled for more than 14 hours, but when offered the chance to come home from MMIO, at 1900 after being on duty of 13 hours. You determine if you are capable of doing the job. I you got a good nights rest, a two hour nap at CYHM while waiting for cargo, be home by 0000, I am going for it. There are other days that you will be fatigued 7 hours into the flight. There is no one set of rules that will cover all fatigue rules. Crews will still fly fatigued, and many times like the crew on 3407, they do it to themselves.

Yip, tell me again what the domestic 121 duty day limit is? Just an FYI, under supplemental it's infinity.

As long as you don't exceed 8 hours of pilot time. BTW So is more days on the road resting is the solution for int'l wide bodies?

 

[HA25]

Yip, tell me again what the domestic 121 duty day limit is? Just an FYI, under supplemental it's infinity.

 

[tailwindz]

Why because only int'l wide bodies experience fatigue

No, because of this.

How about a P-3 24 hours of duty, 17 hours of flight time, no stops, three pilots 0100 to 0100 the next day. Does that count? How about a DA-20 18 hours duty, 11 hours flight time to six stops in two different foreign countries with two pilots. Does that count? Or does it have to be in wide body, with crew rest station to experience fatigue?

and when you ad more cost, less people purchase the product. May be very good for senior peo0ple, not so good for everyone else

Since when do you need a wide body to augment or put a bunk in it?

You just need a company and flight department management that does not have their head where yours apparently is. Or the FAA to get theirs out.

 

[Birddog]

You can not be scheduled for more than 14 hours, but when offered the chance to come home from MMIO, at 1900 after being on duty of 13 hours. You determine if you are capable of doing the job. I you got a good nights rest, a two hour nap at CYHM while waiting for cargo, be home by 0000, I am going for it. There are other days that you will be fatigued 7 hours into the flight. There is no one set of rules that will cover all fatigue rules. Crews will still fly fatigued, and many times like the crew on 3407, they do it to themselves.

This doesn't really help your argument, as you chose to fly tired for convenience sake. It demonstrates that a crew's judgement may be impaired by fatigue and and therefore cannot always be trusted. Studies have found that driving fatigued has the function equivalent of driving while intoxicated. And while you may be able to tolerate the occasional long day every once and and while, it will not work for weeks on end.

More days resting may be the answer, along with duty limits and better structured rest. You cannot say our current regs have a lot of scientific backing or logical structure. It will raise the cost of doing business, but not a significant amount. As to customers choosing not to buy our product, that is only a tertiary concern. No one wants to use air freight. It is the most expensive form of transportation available. If train, truck, ship, or bicycle messenger would get the job done, shippers would use them. They only call us when they have no other choice or when the delay is more expensive than the shipping.

 

[EngineThunder]

This doesn't really help your argument, as you chose to fly tired for convenience sake. It demonstrates that a crew's judgement may be impaired by fatigue and and therefore cannot always be trusted. Studies have found that driving fatigued has the function equivalent of driving while intoxicated. And while you may be able to tolerate the occasional long day every once and and while, it will not work for weeks on end.

More days resting may be the answer, along with duty limits and better structured rest. You cannot say our current regs have a lot of scientific backing or logical structure. It will raise the cost of doing business, but not a significant amount. As to customers choosing not to buy our product, that is only a tertiary concern. No one wants to use air freight. It is the most
expensive form of transportation available. If train, truck, ship, or bicycle messenger would get the job done, shippers would use them. They only call us when they have no other choice or when the delay is more expensive than the shipping.[/QUOTE

If yip had a college degree he would have known better than to accept an 18 hour day Glad everything went well on the way back from mmio. The FAA would have put a real hurt on USAJET if it didn't.

 

[thunderworm]

At my old company 121 cargo flying the back side our DO encouraged cat naps on flights. 1hr out the guy flying got 30min rest to do what he wanted to feel fresh for the approach is what we normally did. I liked it and feel napping when the other guy is feeling good is a good idea. Its amazing how much better and more alert someone is after a 15 min nap even if it isn't really sleep.

 

[pilotyip]

At my old company 121 cargo flying the back side our DO encouraged cat naps on flights. 1hr out the guy flying got 30min rest to do what he wanted to feel fresh for the approach is what we normally did. I liked it and feel napping when the other guy is feeling good is a good idea. Its amazing how much better and more alert someone is after a 15 min nap even if it isn't really sleep.

thank you, a crew taking matters in their owns hands to manage fatigue.

If yip had a college degree he would have known better than to accept an 18 hour day Glad everything went well on the way back from mmio. The FAA would have put a real hurt on USAJET if it didn't.

You know I have coupel coolege dergees, and I still cna't speel. The trip was legal, I was rested, and I would not have taken the trip if I did not feel I could complete it safety, any more than I would take trip after 8 hours of duty if I felt it could not be completed safely.

BTW I agree there are changes to be made to improve rest, but my contention that no one appears to be paying any attention to, is this there are no rest rules that will keep a crew non-fatigued at all times. This is particularly true when crossing multi-time zones, changing sleep/wake cycles, and going from a daytime routine at home to a night time routine at night. I have been there and done that early in my career flying night cargo out of the KDAY sort.