Army Warrant Officer advice please

[Captain Morgan]

Congrats on those who are getting some positive results. I'm still floundering trying to make sense of it all and studying for the ASVAB, etc. I'm definetely tuned into this thread.

 

[CRJFlyer]

Commitment is 6 years. The whole "putting alot of $$ into you" kinda thing...

9 weeks of basic, then a few more months of W.O. schooling. And then 1-1.5 years of helicoptor training. So really your still doing about 4 years of actual deployable duty.

I had it explained that pilots definitely get a bit more say as to basing and such. Basically a little better treatment than infantry guys.

You go in as a E-5 for basic training..And then are a W-1 after that... pay is $2600ish a month..Plus the housing allowance (looks like atleast $1200 for most places in CONUS) plus around $300 for food..(this is all of base housing..I have a wife and kid)

I saw there is also uniform allowance paid every year.....something like $1200. So if you don't ruin all your shirts you can pocket some extra cash that way too. Basically they give you money and you decide how to spend it.

Not a bad deal when you weigh the alternatives of UI benefits. We'd sell the house and everything, live off base, and ride out the furlough. Probably get recalled to NJA before my service was up so I'd have to go on MIL Leave. Which would only put more guys below me on the seniority list if they ever started hiring again. I'm not about to be the junior guy on the list if I can avoid it. Plus get a Helo rating which might be usefull someday!

 

[AirCobra]

Commitment is 6 years. The whole "putting alot of $$ into you" kinda thing...

9 weeks of basic, then a few more months of W.O. schooling. And then 1-1.5 years of helicoptor training. So really your still doing about 4 years of actual deployable duty.

I had it explained that pilots definitely get a bit more say as to basing and such. Basically a little better treatment than infantry guys.

You go in as a E-5 for basic training..And then are a W-1 after that... pay is $2600ish a month..Plus the housing allowance (looks like atleast $1200 for most places in CONUS) plus around $300 for food..(this is all of base housing..I have a wife and kid)

I saw there is also uniform allowance paid every year.....something like $1200. So if you don't ruin all your shirts you can pocket some extra cash that way too. Basically they give you money and you decide how to spend it.

Not a bad deal when you weigh the alternatives of UI benefits. We'd sell the house and everything, live off base, and ride out the furlough. Probably get recalled to NJA before my service was up so I'd have to go on MIL Leave. Which would only put more guys below me on the seniority list if they ever started hiring again. I'm not about to be the junior guy on the list if I can avoid it. Plus get a Helo rating which might be usefull someday!

Just a little clarification. I read your post and I was pretty sure all flight school commitments were after you graduated flight school, that is the way it was with Navy and AF flight school. I checked the Army regs and AR 350-100 says incur a 6-year ADSO completing the course of instruction. That means you owe the Army six years AFTER you complete flight school.

I think you confused your Warrant Officer service obligation which is six years and begins after you pin on WO1. Once you complete flight school your commitment gets reset and you start over again with a new 6 year obligation. Realistically with flight school taking over a year to complete you are looking at an eight year commitment (and six years of deployable duty).

 

[Lynxman]

I was going to say I thought it was 6 after your wings.

 

[psysicx]

How many letters of recommendation do you need? Also have you looked into the Guard? Lots of them are hurting for pilots.

 

[AirCobra]

How many letters of recommendation do you need? Also have you looked into the Guard? Lots of them are hurting for pilots.

Minimum used to be three but more never hurt. The best place to find out info about Guard units is baseops.net

 

[CRJFlyer]

Thanks for the clarification..definitely something to think about. I doubt NJA furlough will last that long, but I have to see how long I am allowed to be on ML. I think it's up to 5 years consecutive?

Although I'm most likely willing to do it. It will suck knowing that I'm putting off a six figure income for 2 additional years (longer than I had thought) assuming NJA recalls in the first 4-5 years.

Can you gimme an idea of how often your moved around. I know they can base you at will, but realistically what can I expect as far as being forced to move every 2-3 years? any chance that I could spend a large majority of the time at one base? (this is more for my family than me.)

I don't plan on spending more than the initial ADSO in the military, so I'm just trying to gauge my QOL for the next 8 years (it seems).

Thanks

 

[AirCobra]

Thanks for the clarification..definitely something to think about. I doubt NJA furlough will last that long, but I have to see how long I am allowed to be on ML. I think it's up to 5 years consecutive?

Although I'm most likely willing to do it. It will suck knowing that I'm putting off a six figure income for 2 additional years (longer than I had thought) assuming NJA recalls in the first 4-5 years.

Can you gimme an idea of how often your moved around. I know they can base you at will, but realistically what can I expect as far as being forced to move every 2-3 years? any chance that I could spend a large majority of the time at one base? (this is more for my family than me.)

I don't plan on spending more than the initial ADSO in the military, so I'm just trying to gauge my QOL for the next 8 years (it seems).

Thanks

The five consecutive years thing does not apply since we are technically at war. You can remain on military leave indefinitely.

By your fifth or sixth year in the military you will be making very close to six figures especially since you don't have to pay out of pocket for healthcare and only about one third of your income is taxed, not to mention you get higher BAH rates depending on where you live.

The following is what I have been told by Army guys:

Realistically plan on two and possibly three moves in your six years (not including the move to Fort Rucker). You will probably have very little say on when and where you will move and what airframe you will get. If you want a lot of options where to live, try and get UH-60's, if you want to move around only between a few bases, pick CH-47's.

The military in general (not just the Army) tends not to move you CONUS (stateside) to CONUS, Its usually CONUS, Overseas, CONUS. This is where the three moves thing comes in. For example a few years at Fort Hood, One year in Korea, a few years at Fort Campbell etc. Rarely would you move directly from Hood to Campbell. The best attitude to have is "home is where you are".

Generally it seems QOL in the military is decent. You are gone a lot but you are home a lot too. Guys I know that have gone from Army to Air Force or Army to Coast Guard or Marines to Navy have all said the grass in not really greener, that all branches have more similarities than differences. The Army may send you away for 18 months, but the Air Force will nickel and dime you with several consecutive four month deployments, so there is really no getting out of being gone.

I preferred my time in the military to my experience as a airline and corporate pilot. There was a bit more a sense of purpose rather than just chasing a paycheck. It's hard to explain unless you have experienced it. Go in with an open mind and you may very well stay beyond your ADSO.

 

[Traderd]

Thanks for the clarification..definitely something to think about. I doubt NJA furlough will last that long, but I have to see how long I am allowed to be on ML. I think it's up to 5 years consecutive?

Although I'm most likely willing to do it. It will suck knowing that I'm putting off a six figure income for 2 additional years (longer than I had thought) assuming NJA recalls in the first 4-5 years.

Can you gimme an idea of how often your moved around. I know they can base you at will, but realistically what can I expect as far as being forced to move every 2-3 years? any chance that I could spend a large majority of the time at one base? (this is more for my family than me.)

I don't plan on spending more than the initial ADSO in the military, so I'm just trying to gauge my QOL for the next 8 years (it seems).

Thanks

All of my military time was spent in Army Aviation as a WO, both AD and ARNG. I tracked IP in both the AH and UH series. Spent time in Cav, Attack, Assault, Lift and VIP units. I retired at W4 after a few months better than 22 years. I was ready at 20, but the stop loss caught me and one thing led to another and before I knew it, the extra time had passed.

As with others on this thread, I believe this is a bigger deal than just flying. I haven't seen you post much about your plans with the military other than to fly, but there are some other things to consider. Since this is just an informal message board, I'll throw in a few examples of my experience and an opinion or three and you can do with it what you like.

The most important is where flying fits into the grand scheme of things. The Army wants you first as an officer and a soldier; aviation is the job you will have to support the larger priority. This is an excellent way to serve your country, but the real emphasis is on the service. If income is a real emphasis, you may find the sacrifice to be a bit much for the return.

QOL is a tough thing to judge. The first few weeks I spent in the desert in a GP medium, I thought that my QOL sucked. Then I spent more then a month in a field execise sleeping on the ground in a GP tiny. Now, my QOL really sucked. The next time I had a cot in an aircraft hanger and it pretty much felt like they put me up in the local Hylton. One word you will come to know and cherish; porcelain. In general, you will learn that not only are not in the civilian world, you aren't even in the Air Force. Many a time I have tried to conjure up a chip light as I passed an AF base enroute to my Army airfield destination, just to spend a few days with the proud and the blue (yeah - I'm still jealous). In other words, in the Army you are part of a system that exists to support the Infantry on the ground and your lifestyle will often reflect that fact.

IMHO, if you wish to spend most of your time in the cockpit, and in order to capture the most hours available in the unit, I would recommend the IP track. Not perfect mind you, but it will in general provide the most seat time. If you like to work more hours than just about any WO in aviation, then I recommend the MTP track. Lots and lots of hours with not so much flight time. The benefit to that job was they usually are too busy for a lot of the Army BS that always comes around.

As for where you're based, movements do occur at the "Needs of the Army." An important fact is that you do not need a PCS to be far away from your family, nor do you need to be deployed OCONUS. TDY was literally a way of life for me for years. It will all depend on your unit and who it supports.

Make sure the wife is aware of how much separation can occur even when you are assigned to a base (example Ft. Bragg) so she will be prepared. My wife wasn't and now she's an ex. I remember when I first got to Ft. Lewis as a W01 and within one week, I was gone for 22 days on a field exercise. And it only got worse from there. I went in with no prior experience and really thought that the only time I couldn't spend with my wife would be if I were assigned to an unaccompanied tour - mainly Korea. Then I heard of Ft. Irwin. Mother Rucker seemed to always call. Then I got to go to Korea TDY. Then I got to go to Germany TDY. Then I got to meet some nice lawyers. Well, I made up the nice part but you get my drift.

Some have managed great assignments with little time deployed and little TDY. I wouldn't bet the marriage on it. My experience and of course, your milage may vary.

Just go in with eyes open and realize that the function of a WO Aviator is a lot more than just flying. A lot of what you will do will have nothing to do with flying. In some cases, you will find it difficult to get flight time. A lot of what you'll have to do will not be any fun (Field Sanitation Officer anyone?) But for me it was a fulfilling experience. I made friends I'll never forget. I have seen and done things a civilian aviator will never have the plesaure or misfortune of experiencing. By all means, go for it. Just keep the eyes open.

As I said to many a pilot during one of my rides; I'll shut up now.

 

[AirCobra]

All of my military time was spent in Army Aviation as a WO, both AD and ARNG. I tracked IP in both the AH and UH series. Spent time in Cav, Attack, Assault, Lift and VIP units. I retired at W4 after a few months better than 22 years. I was ready at 20, but the stop loss caught me and one thing led to another and before I knew it, the extra time had passed.

As with others on this thread, I believe this is a bigger deal than just flying. I haven't seen you post much about your plans with the military other than to fly, but there are some other things to consider. Since this is just an informal message board, I'll throw in a few examples of my experience and an opinion or three and you can do with it what you like.

The most important is where flying fits into the grand scheme of things. The Army wants you first as an officer and a soldier; aviation is the job you will have to support the larger priority. This is an excellent way to serve your country, but the real emphasis is on the service. If income is a real emphasis, you may find the sacrifice to be a bit much for the return.

QOL is a tough thing to judge. The first few weeks I spent in the desert in a GP medium, I thought that my QOL sucked. Then I spent more then a month in a field execise sleeping on the ground in a GP tiny. Now, my QOL really sucked. The next time I had a cot in an aircraft hanger and it pretty much felt like they put me up in the local Hylton. One word you will come to know and cherish; porcelain. In general, you will learn that not only are not in the civilian world, you aren't even in the Air Force. Many a time I have tried to conjure up a chip light as I passed an AF base enroute to my Army airfield destination, just to spend a few days with the proud and the blue (yeah - I'm still jealous). In other words, in the Army you are part of a system that exists to support the Infantry on the ground and your lifestyle will often reflect that fact.

IMHO, if you wish to spend most of your time in the cockpit, and in order to capture the most hours available in the unit, I would recommend the IP track. Not perfect mind you, but it will in general provide the most seat time. If you like to work more hours than just about any WO in aviation, then I recommend the MTP track. Lots and lots of hours with not so much flight time. The benefit to that job was they usually are too busy for a lot of the Army BS that always comes around.

As for where you're based, movements do occur at the "Needs of the Army." An important fact is that you do not need a PCS to be far away from your family, nor do you need to be deployed OCONUS. TDY was literally a way of life for me for years. It will all depend on your unit and who it supports.

Make sure the wife is aware of how much separation can occur even when you are assigned to a base (example Ft. Bragg) so she will be prepared. My wife wasn't and now she's an ex. I remember when I first got to Ft. Lewis as a W01 and within one week, I was gone for 22 days on a field exercise. And it only got worse from there. I went in with no prior experience and really thought that the only time I couldn't spend with my wife would be if I were assigned to an unaccompanied tour - mainly Korea. Then I heard of Ft. Irwin. Mother Rucker seemed to always call. Then I got to go to Korea TDY. Then I got to go to Germany TDY. Then I got to meet some nice lawyers. Well, I made up the nice part but you get my drift.

Some have managed great assignments with little time deployed and little TDY. I wouldn't bet the marriage on it. My experience and of course, your milage may vary.

Just go in with eyes open and realize that the function of a WO Aviator is a lot more than just flying. A lot of what you will do will have nothing to do with flying. In some cases, you will find it difficult to get flight time. A lot of what you'll have to do will not be any fun (Field Sanitation Officer anyone?) But for me it was a fulfilling experience. I made friends I'll never forget. I have seen and done things a civilian aviator will never have the plesaure or misfortune of experiencing. By all means, go for it. Just keep the eyes open.

As I said to many a pilot during one of my rides; I'll shut up now.

Great post! I got into the military after I got married. The Spousal Unit, 1 Each took it like a champ. Some of my squadron mates were not so lucky and their wives blamed them husbands for everything and some even got angry when we deployed or went on exercises.

Your experience of being deployed right after showing up at a new unit is not unique to the Army. I have gotten to work and live with nearly every branch of the service through liaison jobs, staff jobs, and on exercises. Honestly Air Force helo guys don't live that different than Army or Marine guys from what I have seen, and Air Force ALO's probably have it worst of all. Marines live the same way too, although I think we know how to use our Cobra's much better than the Army knows how to use it AH-64's, but that's another story.

It is true, there is a lot more to it than flying. Flying was sometimes almost like a collateral duty while the officer stuff took precedence. A tactical operations squadron is not like an airline job. The only way the military is even remotely what we are used to as airline or corporate pilots is if you go AMC, VR, VMR, or OSACOM but then its crazy schedules flying into places that still have NDB's.

 

[JECKEL]

AirCobra said:

"By your fifth or sixth year in the military you will be making very close to six figures especially since you don't have to pay out of pocket for healthcare and only about one third of your income is taxed, not to mention you get higher BAH rates depending on where you live."


2010 Payrates:

W2 over 6 years: $3694
Fly Pay $650
BAH w/ Dep $991
BAS $223

Total $5558 a month or $66,696 a year before taxes.

Through in Haz Duty pay for the year or two or three you are fighting, $150

Healthcare, I am paying $126 a month for a family of four and $18 for dental.

Grand Total including the free health benefit is: $5852 a month or $70,224 before taxes.

Close to six figures?

 

[AirCobra]

AirCobra said:

"By your fifth or sixth year in the military you will be making very close to six figures especially since you don't have to pay out of pocket for healthcare and only about one third of your income is taxed, not to mention you get higher BAH rates depending on where you live."


2010 Payrates:

W2 over 6 years: $3694
Fly Pay $650
BAH w/ Dep $991
BAS $223

Total $5558 a month or $66,696 a year before taxes.

Through in Haz Duty pay for the year or two or three you are fighting, $150

Healthcare, I am paying $126 a month for a family of four and $18 for dental.

Grand Total including the free health benefit is: $5852 a month or $70,224 before taxes.

Close to six figures?

Wow $126 a month for healthcare, I pay over $400, and paid $280 at my last job. I don't think $126 a month for comprehensive coverage is realistic for every job. Are you sure you don't pay $126 per pay period?

Taxes are lower for military. If you live or your HOR is in states like FL or IL they don't tax your military pay, and BAH/BAS are not taxed so that is at least $1200 of tax free income every month.

Also after your six year flight school commitment you would be up for CW3. Which means your base pay bumps up to $4254 per month. Add to that a higher BAH and BAS, lower taxes, and no out of pocket heathcare, not to mention raises every year, and for every additional two years of service, sure you are pretty close to six figures.

Oh check this out. I didn't even touch on Education benefits, VA Home loans, etc:

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=4978&type=0

 

[Traderd]

Great post! I got into the military after I got married. The Spousal Unit, 1 Each took it like a champ. Some of my squadron mates were not so lucky and their wives blamed them husbands for everything and some even got angry when we deployed or went on exercises.

Your experience of being deployed right after showing up at a new unit is not unique to the Army. I have gotten to work and live with nearly every branch of the service through liaison jobs, staff jobs, and on exercises. Honestly Air Force helo guys don't live that different than Army or Marine guys from what I have seen, and Air Force ALO's probably have it worst of all. Marines live the same way too, although I think we know how to use our Cobra's much better than the Army knows how to use it AH-64's, but that's another story.

It is true, there is a lot more to it than flying. Flying was sometimes almost like a collateral duty while the officer stuff took precedence. A tactical operations squadron is not like an airline job. The only way the military is even remotely what we are used to as airline or corporate pilots is if you go AMC, VR, VMR, or OSACOM but then its crazy schedules flying into places that still have NDB's.

As you point out, for those who have not had the military experience, it can come as quite the culture shock. It seems the wives are rarely prepared. To say that family life can be greatly impacted is an understatement. As an example, on a Saturday afternoon, I received an alert. Two hours later I said goodbye to my wife. About 15 hours later, I was onboard a C-5 receiving a briefing on the destination/mission. Four days later I sent my first letter home and 79 days later I returned. At no point in the action did my pregnant wife know my whereabouts. And of course, there were many families affected.

This is an extreme, but it can happen and the wife really needs to be aware and onboard. If one wishes to be in 160th, consider the divorce in advance. Just joking - kind of, maybe.

I have to agree with your Cobra comment to the extent that I think the W model is a better bird than the 64. IMHO the G model was a blast, the ECAS/F models were pigs and the W model was the redemption. Before I retired, I wanted to grab a ride in a W model. Never got the chance.

As to usage and tactics, I haven't had a lot of opportunity to work with the Marines on the attack side. I do however remember what a Marine calls a helicopter

 

[JECKEL]

You didn't say "after your six year committment" which starts AFTER you get you wings. You said, "after five or six years in the military". So you are talking CW3 at 8? Different story.

And do you think I'm an idiot and can't read my pay stub?

My pre tax med rounded up is $63. I pay that twice a month. My pre tax dental is $9. I pay that twice a month. So sorry that is $144 a month.

Additionally, you probably won't get Haz Pay and BAS in the same month because you would be "in the field" and rations would be provided. So you can only use one of those at a time.

GI Bill and Education? $30,000 a year? You are adding that in as pay? Give me a break.

 

[AirCobra]

You didn't say "after your six year committment" which starts AFTER you get you wings. You said, "after five or six years in the military". So you are talking CW3 at 8? Different story.

And do you think I'm an idiot and can't read my pay stub?

My pre tax med rounded up is $63. I pay that twice a month. My pre tax dental is $9. I pay that twice a month. So sorry that is $144 a month.

Additionally, you probably won't get Haz Pay and BAS in the same month because you would be "in the field" and rations would be provided. So you can only use one of those at a time.

GI Bill and Education? $30,000 a year? You are adding that in as pay? Give me a break.

You are eligible for CW3 at the end of your flight school commitment so that is what I meant by six years. I also just tranferred what the VA says is $90,000 worth of educational benefits to my kids. Could you do that at Net Jets? Compensation is compensation whether it comes in the form of a company car, an expense account or the GI Bill.

I don't know anyone who pays as little for medical as you do that is why I asked what kind of plan you had. What is your deductible? NetJets' provider is Aetna with the ability to choose from two plans. I don't think either plan is as low as $144 a month for comprehensive coverage. If you have somehthing other than catastophic cap or have a low deductible, like less than $5,000, consider yourself very fortunate to be paying so little. I pay over $400 for the middle of the road plan.

If you work for Net Jets is 30% of your pay untaxed? Will Net Jets pay for your kids college? Will a Net Jets pay you more if you live in New York rather than Texas? We haven't even touched on VA loans, untaxed income when in combat zones, or DLA after your first move. This is all real compensation and something to be taken into consideration when seperating from active duty when the time comes.

There is more to compensation than gross pay on a paycheck. I live in the Northeast and making $100,000 here is like making $57,000 in Pensacola. Uncle Sam is not here to give me $2800 a month in BAH tax free and COLA like I would have received in the military. Did you look at the link I provided?

 

[AirCobra]

As to usage and tactics, I haven't had a lot of opportunity to work with the Marines on the attack side. I do however remember what a Marine calls a helicopter

Guest Column: Apache Flaws Stem from Doctrine and Tactics

Check this out:



By Maj. Wade Hasle, USMC



Editor’s Note: The following is a letter sent to the editor of Rotor & Wing magazine in response to a column that appeared in a previous issue. The original column is not available online, but this letter was and is worth sharing. The author, a Marine aviator, offers his views on the differences in performance between Marine Corps AH-1Ws and Army AH-64s.



Accolades to Giovanni de Briganti for his column, “Iraq: Apaches in Question – Again.” Having studied the topic of the operational effectiveness of the AH-64 Apache and AH-1W Super Cobra for a number of years, I have a few insights that can enlighten the debate.



First and foremost, the AH-64 is a very capable platform. Mr. De Briganti’s statements to the contrary, Apache weaknesses and potential failures need to be placed in a proper context. That context is in comparison to America’s other attack helicopter, the AH-1W Super Cobra. He was on the right track when he compared mishap rates, pilot proficiency and training between the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine Corps, but the answer is much more complex.



This poignant and otherwise overlooked comparison is the first I have ever seen in public print. Finally, we might have an open forum on the subject.



One for one, the Apache has a better forward-looking infrared (flir), greater fuel capacity and increased maneuverability, and basically brings more ordnance to the fight when compared to the Super Cobra. Apaches also possess an advantage in crashworthy seats and landing gear. U.S. Marine AH-1Ws may not measure up as well on paper, but maintain strong advantages in other areas.



The Apache received a lot of bad press over the years, starting with Task Force Hawk. None of the information I have read, heard or discussed with those present then ever put the Apache at fault. To understand why there have been problems, one must not look at the aircraft but Army policies, doctrine and training.



It took months to get Task Force Hawk into theater. Delays had to do with the relatively large size, transportation and force protection of Task Force Hawk. Once in Albania, the crews began training in a demanding mountain environment with which they were not familiar. Coupling this unfamiliarity with training at night and with unfamiliar night vision goggles (NVGs) made it even tougher. Two resulting crashes on which the media focused were not because of aircraft weaknesses, but a lack of proper preparation and training time for the Apache crews.



In contrast, the AH-1W crews are extremely familiar with and rely only on NVGs for night operations. NVGs are better than IR imagery in tricky maritime environments. (The Apache’s back seat flir monocle would not work from the deck of a ship in inclement weather.) This reliance on NVGs allows the AH-1W crews to see identical perspectives from identical devices. Having both pilots on NVGs can be a crew coordination advantage not enjoyed by a crew of Apache pilots using two different systems (flir and NVGs).



The NVG experience of the Marine crews would definitely have helped Task Force Hawk crews. Also, training is always a two-way street. The Marines would have gained valuable lessons from the soldiers.



Another question should be raised. Why wasn’t the Aviation Combat Element of the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable), which carried a detachment of AH-1Ws and UH-1Ns, [permitted] to train alongside Task Force Hawk? Ultimately, it was the lack of ground forces engaged in combat and not the crashes that prevented the use of both AH-64s and AH-1Ws. It would have been a hard fight for both attack helicopter variants, if we had actually used them.



In Operation Iraqi Freedom, the media focused on the Apaches’ large amount of battle damage. Apaches are the scapegoats of a weak doctrine. The Army exercises Apache units as maneuver elements in a deep air support: air interdiction (DAS:AI) role. AH-1W crews train for DAS:AI missions but the likelihood of actual execution is relatively remote. Instead, the AH-1W’s primary mission is that of close air support (CAS).



Marines tend to reduce a target using combined arms, an approach in which the AH-1W is only one element of a larger supporting picture. Targets are caught between simultaneous direct and indirect fire from both air and ground. Combined arms keep the enemy pinned down and incapable of returning fire upon attacking aircraft.



The Marines do not possess the assets to employ 30 attack helicopters in a fashion similar to Army forces in Operation Iraqi Freedom at Karbala Gap, nor would the Corps with its present doctrine. Sending Apaches “alone and unafraid” on a DAS:AI mission to engage the enemy is not wise.



Returning with more than 90 percent of the aircraft battle-damaged, with only one lost, is more of a testament to the aircraft and crews’ strength than weakness. If this report is indeed true (as I can only ascertain information from public media sources, as Mr. de Briganti does), failure lies not with the aircraft, but with doctrine and employment of them. The Army needs to revisit potential roles of its attack helicopters. The Apache was not nor will it ever be a single point of failure.



Mr. de Briganti poses the question of training and proficiency differences between the Super Cobra and Apache crews. As a whole, Army warrant officers have more flight hours than Marine commissioned officers. The Army historically has had a lower mishap rate than the Marines. So a lack of Apache pilot proficiency isn't the answer. The answer, I do believe, lies within the training. The differences in the services’ approach to training are huge and varied, but a few points are worth mentioning.



Differences begin with the crews. Marines train to operate and fly from either seat in the AH-1W. Army policy dictates that AH-64A Apache crews train in one seat. There are dozens of pilots in the Army that have ratings in both seats, but not the 100 percent level Marines can claim. From a Marine’s perspective, this seating advantage rounds out the pilot’s skill and experience level. As I understand it, the AH-64D has a common cockpit. This might allow future seating flexibility, if the Army chooses to use it.



There is a huge rift in tactics, techniques, and procedures (TTPs). The Army tends to focus on hover fire. This seems to be a result of a few factors. First, the Apache has the power to hover with 16 Hellfire missiles. Second, hovering is easier for ordnance-delivery training. Third, Army ranges are overly strict with live-fire procedures, keeping maneuver space to a minimum.



Marine AH-1W tactics, techniques and procedures focus on running fire as much as, if not more than, hover fire. This is not to say that Marine tactics, techniques, and procedures are superior. Rather, the constant movement of AH-1Ws is due to other potential missions that include CAS, DAS, Forward Air Controller (Airborne), Escort, and Air-to-Air. Having these abilities forces Marine AH-1Ws to move about the battlefield in response to support requirements. Also, AH-1Ws are employed as divisions of four using fixed-wing-like maneuvers rather than large flights firing abreast. All of this helps improve their survivability.



Apache crews appear to be learning the virtues of running fire. Reports from Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan and even Operation Iraqi Freedom attest to the rule that speed is life. We must face the facts. Any helicopter is obsolete on the modern battlefield if used unwisely. A $20-million Apache is no different.



Probably the largest impact on the perceived difference described by Mr. de Briganti between AH-64 and AH-1W combat results can be attributed to the Marines’ training and readiness syllabus. It raises an inexperienced pilot from initial instruction through five distinct levels of training to that of an instructor. Each event has completely defined lessons, briefing requirements and execution standards. It is thorough, with room for flexibility, and uses a building-block approach toward flight leadership. Compared to the Army’s essential task training (as explained to me by many Apache pilots), the Marines clearly have the upper hand.



What does the answer boil down to? It lies not with the Apache, but with a lack of proper Army doctrine and realistic tactics, techniques and procedures. My objective is not to preach Marine superiority, but to provide a different slant. The Army has many strengths, including a promising integrated simulation plan for pilots and realistic force-on-force training. These are programs from which the Corps can learn.

Apache pilots are extremely dedicated warriors. This letter is not to denigrate their efforts in any way. We have much to gain from each other.



Each service will learn from the war on terrorism, but only those who apply what is learned will win.

 

[CRJFlyer]

I don't think Jeckel works for Netjets.. Unless you got him confused with me..


Pay wise I'm not looking to make out like a bandit. I'd be happy to cover my bills, save a few bucks, and come out the other side in a better financial position than when I went in. Which means to have both vehicles and my student loans paid off by the time I was out.

What other duties do pilots do when they are not flying? (I don't need the hrs. have plenty of those, but I'm really hoping to avoid hoofing it in a city like Fallujah and dodging roadside bombs)

 

[AirCobra]

I don't think Jeckel works for Netjets.. Unless you got him confused with me..


Pay wise I'm not looking to make out like a bandit. I'd be happy to cover my bills, save a few bucks, and come out the other side in a better financial position than when I went in. Which means to have both vehicles and my student loans paid off by the time I was out.

What other duties do pilots do when they are not flying? (I don't need the hrs. have plenty of those, but I'm really hoping to avoid hoofing it in a city like Fallujah and dodging roadside bombs)

I was actually referring to you becuase you work at NetJets and we were talking about leaving right after your ADSO. I was just pointing out you would be closer to six figures than you think when you look at the whole compensation package rather than just gross pay.

As far as jobs go, any job you can think of and put "officer" on the end of it.

Supply Officer
Voting Officer
CFC Officer
Dining Facility Officer
Publications Officer
Field Sanitation
Armory Officer
and so on....

 

[JECKEL]

"You are eligible for CW3 at the end of your flight school commitment so that is what I meant by six years. I also just transferred $90,000 worth of educational benefits to my kids. Could you do that at Net Jets? Compensation is compensation whether it comes in the form of a company car, an expense account or the GI Bill. I don't know anyone who pays as little for medical as you do. What is your deductible?

I think you can read your paycheck but you don't really understand what is on it. If you work for Net Jets is 30% of your pay untaxed? Will Net Jets pay for your kids college? Will a Net Jets pay you more if you live in New York rather than Texas? We haven't even touched on VA loans, untaxed income when in combat zones, or DLA after your first move. This is all real compensation. Did you look at the link I provided?"



I'm sorry that I didn't have the clairvoyance to understand what you meant to say. I only read what you wrote.

"Making very close to six figures" and "compensation, including tangibles, intangibles, benefits and educational contributions transferred to your kids, totaling very close to six figures" are not quite the same thing.

I work for a Part 121 regional airline and that is my monthly payment for health care. What is so difficult for you to understand.

And NO, I didn't look at your stupid link.

Face it, you were not clear with most of what you wrote with the post in question. You meant this and you meant that when what you really wrote was something different and I called you on it. Next time write what you mean. Write something like, "when you make CW3 with 7 to 8 years in service" or maybe "a total compensation page of $100,000 including benefits your kids will use 15 years later". That paints a much clearer picture. Plain and simple.

And I don't really care about anything that happens at NetJets!

 

[AirCobra]

"You are eligible for CW3 at the end of your flight school commitment so that is what I meant by six years. I also just transferred $90,000 worth of educational benefits to my kids. Could you do that at Net Jets? Compensation is compensation whether it comes in the form of a company car, an expense account or the GI Bill. I don't know anyone who pays as little for medical as you do. What is your deductible?

I think you can read your paycheck but you don't really understand what is on it. If you work for Net Jets is 30% of your pay untaxed? Will Net Jets pay for your kids college? Will a Net Jets pay you more if you live in New York rather than Texas? We haven't even touched on VA loans, untaxed income when in combat zones, or DLA after your first move. This is all real compensation. Did you look at the link I provided?"



I'm sorry that I didn't have the clairvoyance to understand what you meant to say. I only read what you wrote.

"Making very close to six figures" and "compensation, including tangibles, intangibles, benefits and educational contributions transferred to your kids, totaling very close to six figures" are not quite the same thing.

I work for a Part 121 regional airline and that is my monthly payment for health care. What is so difficult for you to understand.

And NO, I didn't look at your stupid link.

Face it, you were not clear with most of what you wrote with the post in question. You meant this and you meant that when what you really wrote was something different and I called you on it. Next time write what you mean. Write something like, "when you make CW3 with 7 to 8 years in service" or maybe "a total compensation page of $100,000 including benefits your kids will use 15 years later". That paints a much clearer picture. Plain and simple.

And I don't really care about anything that happens at NetJets!

Seriously dude you need to lighten up. I was not trying to be deceptive but to paint a complete picture of actual compensation because its something a lot of people don't think about when separating. Its not just about gross pay. My stupid link as you called it highlights the total military compensation package.

Paying for college is something every parent has to deal with and the poster said he had kids so this would be very important to someone with kids. You have to start planning for college when your kids are young, and fifteen years goes by fast. I won't have to be coming up with that money while someone who only worked at the airlines would.

As far as your medical goes it is hard for me to understand. I would like to pay as little as you do and I am wondering what kind of plan you have and who it is through. Wouldn't you say it a very large disparity between our plans? Why is it hard for you to understand that maybe others would like to get a low cost plan like this if the coverage was the same?

Instead of telling me what to write and how to write and calling me out why don't you add something constructive and help the poster...you know the guy that works at Net Jets that you don't care about.

That being said, you sure are rude and acting like a total jerk when most of us on here are trying to help someone make a pretty big decision. I would expect more professionalism from an officer even if this is an anonymous message board.