Are you guys tired of this yet? Time for National list?

[JT12345]

I hear a lot of pluses to a national list in other industries. I know you guys think with all the training that it is not possible. All that would be required is when you bid for a slot at another company that you stay there for a year, so they recouped their training costs.

Think of this. One rate for every airplane out there. One contract. One list. Or something even less complicated like being able to bid for company vacanies nationalwide.

What if you want to be closer to home or further from home What if you want to be closer to the kids than the exwife. Or your parent is ill this year, so you can bid for a company that has a base closer to where they live.

No more starting over at 50, and having to make regional pay. A company starts up they have to pay the same as everyone else. No more short term sacrifices for long term loses instead of gains.

Do you really think you are untouchable? This latest hiring was the shortest for the legacies I have seen. Will management ever return airlines to normal profit margins?

Are you tired of the uncertainty 5 years from now? What about 10 or 15 years from now? Do you really think your company will look the same?

Here comes open sky. Will it be freely open or fairly open? Do you think it will be to our advantage or disadvantage like other free trade agreements with other countries. Will those governments subsidize their airlines and try to kill American Airline companies?

The only problem is Military guys with 20 years will be off to a late start unless we count their time in the military towards seniority.

As things seem to be spiraling down... how far should we let them use our egos against us? The "I can get ahead of you mentality."

I bet the young guys don't like this. They are so young. What will the company you get on with under the age of 30 look like when you are 50? For the 50 year olds. How are your friends fairing compared to you? Who will be the 10% of us that have 30 years on the same list?

Or should that be 100% of us?

_________________________________

P.S. Have you ever noticed how the books of one company can be much better than some others. With the transfer of knowledge between companies safety concerns or ideas would be well known. There would be a push for cost reductions due to Pilot movement.

There would be a push to streamline airplane and company manuals. How many different things are there really to flying an airplane type? Training events, and profiles would be similar in the long run. SOPs would be nationwide, and safety concerns would not just apply to the company that had to solve a problem because of an incident.

Ie. The low speed limits and altitude limits of the CRJ were well known at Comair, but not at Pinnacle. And now due to an accident we all know about corelock. It takes an accident for the knowledge rights/secrets of other company manuals to be known.

 

[ofacegangsta]

Kinda sounds like the stuff they got rid of in '78?

 

[dashocho]

So lemme ask you this? What is the bases for you hire date on the national seniority list. I've changed jobs in this industry. do I get my Mesa date or my swa date? I'll agree it would be nice to have to make changing jobs happen. what happens if an Air Tran guy gets bumped by an AA 35 year guy who got fed up? We've been seniority based always. who gets screwed?

 

[BoilerUP]

Never gonna happen, for a multitude of reasons.

We all hitch our wagon to a particular horse, and go where that particular ninny dictates. Some enjoy a mostly pleasant ride, while for others they get a broken wheel or three.

Just because your chosen trail went rough doesn't allow you to cut line in front of those who took another path...

What was it that Ernest Gann always said? "The numbers never lie"...

 

[PCL_128]

JT, you and I both work for a non-ALPA carrier. How do you think we could ever be included in any sort of national seniority list? We just have our tiny little ineffective union that is not part of the THE pilot's union. The hope of ever having a national list is dependent upon ALPA. They are the only ones that even have a snowball's chance in hell of accomplishing such a thing. Want a national list? First step is to get everyone under one union.

 

[piav8r]

national list

A national list that allows you to hop from carrier to carrier will never, never, never, never happen. Pilots are too willing to screw eachother to get more planes, more flying, etc.

I think something that could or should happen is that every company is forced to pay the same rate for a A320, B757 etc... But that would take some serious work by ALPA and non-ALPA carriers alike...

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Crack, anyone?

 

[Jar Jar]

I've seen several of threads on this subject across multiple boards and one thing is constant - the naysayers.

I'm of the school where you don't care how tough things are you get 'em done whatever it takes. I know lots of you guys have seen tons of BS over the years, but doing nothing is simply not better than doing something.

Step 1 - Develop the list based on union seniority. That's right - I'll give my job to a guy whos senior to me. We'll hammer out the details as we progress - but damn lets get it written down on paper first.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

There are WAY too many conflicting dynamics already in place to actually make it work smoothly. Too much inherent divisiveness. Besides, the current system behooves airline management and their accountants.

 

[Jar Jar]

Dude - Step 1.

Too many of us are going to spend our entire professional lives hopping between year 5 and year 1 pay. Screw that.

 

[wms]

When LCC or some other poorly run airline goes out of business they'll be able to bump the pilots of much better carriers to the street. Yeah, that's better.

 

[Sy-bill]

It only takes a moment to come up with ten reasons this wouldn't work.

And there are a hundred others.

 

[BoilerUP]

Dude - Step 1.

Too many of us are going to spend our entire professional lives hopping between year 5 and year 1 pay. Screw that.

Dude - Step 1.

Instead of talking about problems in Flightinfo, come up with a solution(s) that considers all of the pros, but most importantly, all of the cons. Consider union vs. non-union companies, pay parity, respect for seat and domicile protections.

Dude - Step 2.

Explain your solution at a LEC meeting. Make a motion to get your proposal sent up the chain to National for consideration.

You don't have to jump between year 1-5 in pay for your entire career...and those working at profitable, successful carriers shouldn't be punished by having those working at unprofitable, dysfunctional carriers constantly coming in on top of them on the seniority list.

 

[Raoul Duke]

pipe dream, it will never happen

 

[landlover]

i'm with you! all the questions asked are simple to answer. you get in the union with an atp and you use your original atp checkride date as the "old" seniority number. the "old" system is, well it's old and outdated. If military guys want to get in the union when they are young, simply take an atp checkride and pay dues while you are in the military. A LOT OF OTHER UNIONS WORK THIS WAY. its so simply, everyone wants to make it more complicated then it really is. it won't matter if you work for eagle, delta, airtran or joe schmoo airlines. a real union isn't tied to a particular company.

 

[BoilerUP]

Would a single-engine ATP be sufficient for entry?

 

[landlover]

and those working at profitable, successful carriers shouldn't be punished by having those working at unprofitable, dysfunctional carriers constantly coming in on top of them on the seniority list.

why would anyone get punished? you are thinking about it backwards. if someone with 25 years under their belt shows up to wire a building, should he get payed more then a guy with 5 years of experience? it would be the same thing if company X needed a pilot and hired a guy with 25 years in the union. the problem is the current system(it's a bad system) is so ingrained in everyone you can't see how change would be good.

 

[landlover]

Would a single-engine ATP be sufficient for entry?

yes but it would only make you eligible where a single engine atp would be required so it wouldn't be very useful. so you would be paying dues for not a whole lot of job prospects. making you want to get an multi atp, thus being able to work more places.

 

[Jar Jar]

Would a single-engine ATP be sufficient for entry?

All the details can be hammered out before a list is implemented - we could have 300 pages of discussion of the potential details and everyone would lose interest. How many people even read this far?

The first step is just creating it - and yea I'll mention it to my LEC.

 

[landlover]

When LCC or some other poorly run airline goes out of business they'll be able to bump the pilots of much better carriers to the street. Yeah, that's better.

no no no no no!!! if airline X goes t!ts up, the guys that lost there job don't take anyones job. they just maintain their pay scale for years in the union.

 

[Jar Jar]

Dude - Step 1.

Instead of talking about problems in Flightinfo,

All due respect, I think flightinfo is the ideal place to discuss the subject - where else can I find guys that wont just agree with me to make the trip go by more smoothly?

come up with a solution(s) that considers all of the pros, but most importantly, all of the cons. Consider union vs. non-union companies, pay parity, respect for seat and domicile protections.

I don't think I have enough expertise in the subject to personally hammer out those details. I do think that its a job that will be very complex and require people with a more appropriate skillset than mine to hammer out those details. The time will come for that, and I think that it could be done in a manner that protects everyone's long-term interests if we do it right.

You don't have to jump between year 1-5 in pay for your entire career...and those working at profitable, successful carriers shouldn't be punished by having those working at unprofitable, dysfunctional carriers constantly coming in on top of them on the seniority list.

What happens when the company you thought was going to be successful goes under due to mismanagement? Is that something you can even see coming more than 1-5 years in advance? I think not.

I would gladly give a more senior pilot my job now if it meant that I'd never have to worry about that happening during my career.

 

[KCPilot]

The whole thing sounds like communism!

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I would gladly give a more senior pilot my job now if it meant that I'd never have to worry about that happening during my career.

Here's a riddle for you:


There are 10 frogs on a log. One of them decides to jump.

How many frogs are left on the log?





























10 frogs.

To decide and to actually do, are two different things.

 

[Jar Jar]

Thats cute

 

[landlover]

The whole thing sounds like communism!

well if this is communism it takes place every second of everyday in most skilled labor trades.

 

[flyer172r]

I would gladly give a more senior pilot my job now if it meant that I'd never have to worry about that happening during my career.

You'd gladly give up your job to someone else? Do you live off a trust fund or do you just have a really good fall back plan? If you implemented this plan you'd constantly have to worry about other pilots taking the upgrades you were in line for or coming over to your company to fly a bigger airplane for more money while you're stuck on the smaller equipment. I'd agree that national pay rates and work rules are a good idea, but good luck getting everyone to agree on letting senior pilots bump them out of their own seats.

 

[hoover]

if someone with 25 years under their belt shows up to wire a building, should he get payed more then a guy with 5 years of experience?

No, and here's why: because both are doing the exact same job. what difference does it make to the building owner how much experience the guy had as long as the job is done right?

Same thing with pilots. I have never understood the longevity pay scale. Two 737 pilots, one a 12 year FO and the other a 2 year FO, are doing the exact same job. Why does that 12 year FO deserve more money? Conversely, why does that 2 year FO deserve less money. At the end of the day, both are doing he the exact same job: moving the airplane from A to B. Eliminate longevity based pay, pay all pilots in the same equipment and seat the same, and you do two things: 1) eliminate management's tool of shifting flying from one carrier to another because the other carrier has less senior pilots, and 2) minimze the pain felt by pilots who have to switch jobs after 5 or 10 years. Much more effective and easier to get than an NSL

 

[Jar Jar]

I would - and yea I'm capable of finding work in another field until I would be able to return, hell TSA baggage screeners make more money than most 121 F/Os - its a small sacrifice now as a junior guy in order to guarantee future prosperity - thats fine with me.

National pay rates and work rules are great too, like I've said a few times here already - the details can all be hammered out when the time comes but we have to do something significant to pull our profession out of this downward spiral.

 

[flyer172r]

its a small sacrifice now as a junior guy in order to guarantee future prosperity - thats fine with me.

I don't see how this guarantees any prosperity. Assuming for a moment we keep negotiating individual contracts, then any time one company gets a good contract, nothing would stop everyone else from coming over to work there and bumping down (and forcing out), the guys who had been working there before. Once again, it would greatly benefit the senior guys at the expense of those junior.

 

[waveflyer]

communism?
and what do you think we have now is?

Our seniority lists compromise the free hand of competition. The reason is that b/c this career is so end-loaded- and FIRST year pay is so low industry wide- once you gain any sort of seniority anywhere- you cannot offer your services to another company.

I've said this for years now--- we will never see leverage return while pilots continue to vote republican-- To not support unionism, while employing a system where we cannot take advantage of capitalism is INSANE.

Whether it's a national list or an evening out of payscales across the longevity/seniority levels- we need to be able to change companies easier. We need to get to work on it now!