Are you guys tired of this yet? Time for National list?

[Jar Jar]

Dude - Step 1.

Instead of talking about problems in Flightinfo,

All due respect, I think flightinfo is the ideal place to discuss the subject - where else can I find guys that wont just agree with me to make the trip go by more smoothly?

come up with a solution(s) that considers all of the pros, but most importantly, all of the cons. Consider union vs. non-union companies, pay parity, respect for seat and domicile protections.

I don't think I have enough expertise in the subject to personally hammer out those details. I do think that its a job that will be very complex and require people with a more appropriate skillset than mine to hammer out those details. The time will come for that, and I think that it could be done in a manner that protects everyone's long-term interests if we do it right.

You don't have to jump between year 1-5 in pay for your entire career...and those working at profitable, successful carriers shouldn't be punished by having those working at unprofitable, dysfunctional carriers constantly coming in on top of them on the seniority list.

What happens when the company you thought was going to be successful goes under due to mismanagement? Is that something you can even see coming more than 1-5 years in advance? I think not.

I would gladly give a more senior pilot my job now if it meant that I'd never have to worry about that happening during my career.

 

[KCPilot]

The whole thing sounds like communism!

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I would gladly give a more senior pilot my job now if it meant that I'd never have to worry about that happening during my career.

Here's a riddle for you:


There are 10 frogs on a log. One of them decides to jump.

How many frogs are left on the log?





























10 frogs.

To decide and to actually do, are two different things.

 

[Jar Jar]

Thats cute

 

[landlover]

The whole thing sounds like communism!

well if this is communism it takes place every second of everyday in most skilled labor trades.

 

[flyer172r]

I would gladly give a more senior pilot my job now if it meant that I'd never have to worry about that happening during my career.

You'd gladly give up your job to someone else? Do you live off a trust fund or do you just have a really good fall back plan? If you implemented this plan you'd constantly have to worry about other pilots taking the upgrades you were in line for or coming over to your company to fly a bigger airplane for more money while you're stuck on the smaller equipment. I'd agree that national pay rates and work rules are a good idea, but good luck getting everyone to agree on letting senior pilots bump them out of their own seats.

 

[hoover]

if someone with 25 years under their belt shows up to wire a building, should he get payed more then a guy with 5 years of experience?

No, and here's why: because both are doing the exact same job. what difference does it make to the building owner how much experience the guy had as long as the job is done right?

Same thing with pilots. I have never understood the longevity pay scale. Two 737 pilots, one a 12 year FO and the other a 2 year FO, are doing the exact same job. Why does that 12 year FO deserve more money? Conversely, why does that 2 year FO deserve less money. At the end of the day, both are doing he the exact same job: moving the airplane from A to B. Eliminate longevity based pay, pay all pilots in the same equipment and seat the same, and you do two things: 1) eliminate management's tool of shifting flying from one carrier to another because the other carrier has less senior pilots, and 2) minimze the pain felt by pilots who have to switch jobs after 5 or 10 years. Much more effective and easier to get than an NSL

 

[Jar Jar]

I would - and yea I'm capable of finding work in another field until I would be able to return, hell TSA baggage screeners make more money than most 121 F/Os - its a small sacrifice now as a junior guy in order to guarantee future prosperity - thats fine with me.

National pay rates and work rules are great too, like I've said a few times here already - the details can all be hammered out when the time comes but we have to do something significant to pull our profession out of this downward spiral.

 

[flyer172r]

its a small sacrifice now as a junior guy in order to guarantee future prosperity - thats fine with me.

I don't see how this guarantees any prosperity. Assuming for a moment we keep negotiating individual contracts, then any time one company gets a good contract, nothing would stop everyone else from coming over to work there and bumping down (and forcing out), the guys who had been working there before. Once again, it would greatly benefit the senior guys at the expense of those junior.

 

[waveflyer]

communism?
and what do you think we have now is?

Our seniority lists compromise the free hand of competition. The reason is that b/c this career is so end-loaded- and FIRST year pay is so low industry wide- once you gain any sort of seniority anywhere- you cannot offer your services to another company.

I've said this for years now--- we will never see leverage return while pilots continue to vote republican-- To not support unionism, while employing a system where we cannot take advantage of capitalism is INSANE.

Whether it's a national list or an evening out of payscales across the longevity/seniority levels- we need to be able to change companies easier. We need to get to work on it now!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

well if this is communism it takes place every second of everyday in most skilled labor trades.

Yeah,
He says its "communism" while sucking on the Gov't teat. Wait till he has to enter the real world and try the furlough shoes on, that "communism" stuff will start to sound better.
PBR

 

[Double Shot]

No way! If this ever came to a vote (and I doubt it ever would) my vote would be HELL NO! and how abot NO ********************ING WAY!

 

[ASADFW7]

As an applicant for a company you wish to work for you are responsible for your choice of seeking employment with that company. No to one list.

 

[landlover]

No, and here's why: because both are doing the exact same job. what difference does it make to the building owner how much experience the guy had as long as the job is done right?

Same thing with pilots. I have never understood the longevity pay scale. Two 737 pilots, one a 12 year FO and the other a 2 year FO, are doing the exact same job. Why does that 12 year FO deserve more money? Conversely, why does that 2 year FO deserve less money. At the end of the day, both are doing he the exact same job: moving the airplane from A to B. Eliminate longevity based pay, pay all pilots in the same equipment and seat the same, and you do two things: 1) eliminate management's tool of shifting flying from one carrier to another because the other carrier has less senior pilots, and 2) minimze the pain felt by pilots who have to switch jobs after 5 or 10 years. Much more effective and easier to get than an NSL

you make very good points, i just think it is nationwide standard to get a pay increase every year why should the airlines be different? what would you propose as far as giving raises? everyone gets one every year based on inflation etc..? I say just get rid of a seniority number all together.



flyer172 you don't fully understand how a non pilot union works. no one would bump you out of any seat if they were out of a job. if a pilot was out of work he could go anywhere that was hiring, not steal anyones seat. instead of there being 50 mickey Ds franchise style ALPAs there would be one big union and they would set the rate for airplane X doing X amount of flying. no one would really care where they worked aside from being somewhere geographically since it would all be the same.

 

[waveflyer]

ASA it's not that simple:
We still don't have to set it up so that it's so punishing to change companies. No teacher or doctor or attorney takes such a HUGE hit when changing companies.
Most of us only want to fly airplanes out of the base we want. Who cares what's on the tail?
To me- 1st year pay is a big problem to this. To change companies we have to deal w/ being junior- (which is already a SOCIALIST way to set it up w/in our companies)- then have to deal w/ poverty wages. It's no choice at all. We've cut the legs out of capitalism by this jeckyl and hyde system.

And we've done it to ourselves.

 

[BoilerUP]

flyer172 you don't fully understand how a non pilot union works. no one would bump you out of any seat if they were out of a job. if a pilot was out of work he could go anywhere that was hiring, not steal anyones seat. instead of there being 50 mickey Ds franchise style ALPAs there would be one big union and they would set the rate for airplane X doing X amount of flying. no one would really care where they worked aside from being somewhere geographically since it would all be the same.

You don't fully understand the fundamental differences between captain and first officer and how that relationship would torpedo your proposal.

If everybody made X dollars per hour regardless of their seat then your idea would work, be both know airline management nor pilots would ever go for that. Under your idea, its possible that a first officer could perpetually have more senior pilots from other airlines coming in on top of him/her, preventing them from upgrading and enjoying the salary and career enhancement being a captain provides....and that says nothing for how schedules and vacations would be awarded!

THAT is what my dear friend flyer172r was talking about.

Address those industry-specific issues, and you're (maybe) in business.

 

[SSDD]

To me, the first issue you have to address is pay. Set a national payscale for each airframe. Get that done and then, maybe, you can talk about a single seniority list.

 

[waveflyer]

you can't have equal pay w/o one seniority list.

if tough times place someones job in jeopardy- that pilot group would not have the ability to reduce their pay in order to protect their seniority-- to me, that's good- b/c it doesn't protect it anyway- just a much harder sell.

 

[flyer172r]

flyer172 you don't fully understand how a non pilot union works. no one would bump you out of any seat if they were out of a job. if a pilot was out of work he could go anywhere that was hiring, not steal anyones seat. instead of there being 50 mickey Ds franchise style ALPAs there would be one big union and they would set the rate for airplane X doing X amount of flying. no one would really care where they worked aside from being somewhere geographically since it would all be the same.

For some reason I can never quite match my friend boiler's eloquence, so I will simply say that his reply was what I was trying to get at in terms of taking people's upgrades and seats. Now, if we limited the scope of a national list to only determining what kind of pay scale a pilot would get when they switched companies but still put them on the bottom of the list for schedules, upgrades, and equipment, then I'm sure there'd be a lot more support.

Of course, good luck telling a senior United pilot that he can keep his salary but go back to reserve when he moves to Atlanta and wants to work at Delta (just an example, don't read anything into it).

 

[Poahi]

Under your idea, its possible that a first officer could perpetually have more senior pilots from other airlines coming in on top of him/her, preventing them from upgrading and enjoying the salary and career enhancement (maybe) in business.

Under that scenario, why would that airline want to hire anyone senior? They would be stacked with both senior captains and senior FO's. Airlines would resist this.

Then, the senior guys would complain that SWA, FEDEX, UPS, whatever airline wouldn't hire me because I'm too expensive... The would rather upgrade the home grown cheaper pilots making the popular airlines heavy with senior pilots.

On the other hand, that FO would have upgrade options at other less desirable airlines. See the problem?