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APAAD regrouping to challenge age 60

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;1193009 said:
SWA is the problem. And SWA can fix the problem.

So is this news article quoting Ike Eichelkraut correct that 80% of the SWA pilots want an age change?


"This particular rule is arbitrary, discriminatory, and it needlessly throws out experienced pilots," said Southwest Airline Pilots Association president Joseph "Ike" Eichelkraut.

While Frontier and United Airlines do not have a position on the rule, Southwest Airlines backs a change to raise the retirement age.

"We just feel that forcing our most experienced pilots to retire because of a rule that as far as we know is not based on any data or medical history is just unfair," said Southwest spokeswoman Paula Berg.
At Southwest Airlines, which doesn't have a pension plan, pilots are 4 to 1 in favor of changing the rule, according to Eichelkraut.
luckytohaveajob,

those figures are correct....polling for the last few months confirm when posed with the general question regarding Age 60, if it is wrong & should it be changed, the ratio to those believing change should occur vs. those who don't are running around that percentage listed by Ike.

While I am not familiar with the polls or specific MECs within ALPA, in speaking to senior persons there, the tide would appear to be turning within ALPA also. ----------------

I spoke to SWAPA's congressional lobbyist today today in DC. He confirmed that the Age 60 issue has been rolled into the appropriations bill that Congress will review in the next session's congress will occur most likely in Jan/Feb '07. Failure to do so would result in another continuing resolution to fund Congress & the government, something the Democrats are likely to resist. There are some minor legal technicalities about renaming the bill & such the entire process of getting sponsorships, sending it through committees & the normal hoops attached with getting a new bill up & before congress will not occur.

That being said, though, the issue won't be voted for in this session as you said, it is over with. However, it being voted on early next year by way of an up or down vote, not on the Age 60 issue but rather an up or down vote on the appropriations is the likely way it "may" get passed. As always, it could be stripped out of the bill along with other attachments/bills. If that was to occur, the 'entire process' would begin again.

I realize that may not be popular with some folks and if I'm saying something that is offending you personally, that is not my intent...I'm only trying to pass along facts that will help others understand where the membership within SWAPA stands on the issue.
 
thanks for the info chase

Thanks, for the info Chase. I am not offended but am shocked to read that such a high percentage of SWAPA members want a change to the rule. I do find it hard to believe.
 
Chase, you need to have an open vote. Everybody thought ALPA was swinging pro-change two years ago based on tele-poles...they they had a vote and it came out firmly Anti-change. The vocal minority is making it look like they're the majority...the squeaky wheel gathers no moss...or something like that.
 
....polling for the last few months confirm when posed with the general question regarding Age 60, if it is wrong & should it be changed, the ratio to those believing change should occur vs. those who don't are running around that percentage listed by Ike.

Is the 4 to 1 number based on phone polling? Or does that represent a membership vote?

Are the last 1500 pilots being polled and have they voted?
 
Not sure how the poll was conducted but I find it extremely hard to believe the numbers that Ike quoted. Let's see the actual questions asked, and the actual responses.

I just find it very hard to believe that 80% of SWA pilots want age 60 changed. It's not even remotely close to the historical numbers so not even believable to me.
 
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I believe if it was voted on it would fail. We must vote on this soon, just to get the true number of pilots that support spending dues money on it.
 
Bringupthebird, how is it that a near 60 pilot such as yourself has such little flight time, 12,500? 12,500 indicates you must of started flying as a second career late in life and are selfishly wanting more because you were a late bloomer.
Huh?? I might look that old, I sometimes feel that old, but I'm 41. And I've been on the side of eliminating the Age 60 rule since I was 21. Sorry, try again.
 
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Given that aircraft are not plummeting to Earth because of cognitive lapses by pilots, the FAA is comfortable with not setting a different age limit, which would lead to the unanswerable paradoxes of empirical minimum standards and self-certification of cognitive ability
.

Were aircraft plummeting in 1958 solely because of the age of the pilot? If so, the Age 60 rule should be lauded as a tremendous benefit to safety. If not, it should be seen for what it is.

The arbitrary limit (60) just happens to be working, since it's conservative enough to preclude (according to safety data) 100% of the age-based cognitive lapses by Pt. 121 pilots.
How can you quantify the degree of safety that would be degraded by allowing 65 year-olds to act as PIC? What is the evidence that in other countries and in other types of flight operations, that the bulk of accidents are age-related?

That ain't my argument either. My argument is that the rule is a safety issue, and that changes to Age 60 would lead to two requirements that can't be done with any degree of certainty...namely Standards and Self-Certification.

Those requirements could not have been made in 1958 either. Why demand the burden of proof now, even though it would be an acceptable risk. Why not allow the travelling public to decide if they feel it is safe for them to fly with 60+ pilots or choose a carrier that does not employ such pilots. Are you the self-appointed gaurdian for them as well?

Right now we have an arbitrary age that is grating to some pilots. They seek to change it without concern that it may lead to even more arbitrary numbers (the standards), and subjective tests to ascertain compliance with those numbers.

No, I think that reasonable people are willing to ease into raising the retirement age to placate those who shudder in fear that a pilot over 60 might be at the controls (what these safety sentinels really mean is "their rightful" controls).

What sort of "medical technology" are you advocating? An implantable "cog-tester"? A tin-foil hat with Alpha-wave readouts downlinked to a white-coated technician? A preflight analogies test for all pilots?

Medical technology has improved and increased the lifespan of millions. Cholesterol lowering medication, diabetes medication, blood pressure medications have staved off or reversed much of what caused the average life expectancy in 1958 to be 67 years. Now we are looking at average life expectancies approaching 80. If it could be proven that periodic cognitive testing would enhance safety, then it might be considered.

If there was evidence that a pilot was suffering from dementia in the cockpit, it would be the moral responsibility of his fellow crewmembers to restrict him from the flight deck and notify the appropriate authorities. If this became commonplace, perhaps the FAA could justify a retirement age where these episodes no longer occurred. If it did not become commonplace, then the advocates of the elimination of a discriminatory law would be vindicated, albeit many years too late.
 
Were aircraft plummeting in 1958 solely because of the age of the pilot? If so, the Age 60 rule should be lauded as a tremendous benefit to safety. If not, it should be seen for what it is.

In 1959, the jet was introduced. CR Smith did have real concerns about aircraft plummeting into the dirt. CR had first hand reports from his training department that the old DC6/7 pilots refused to learn the new requirements of the jets such as flying a profile, staying on speed regardless of feel, and not counting on a forgiving straight wing to save their butts flying the new sweep wing jets. CR Smith saw his American Airlines going out of business entrustring the future to the unable old timers.

The military even limits the age of its aviators and pilots. How many 50 year olds do you know that are carrier qualified?

Medical technology has improved and increased the lifespan of millions. Cholesterol lowering medication, diabetes medication, blood pressure medications have staved off or reversed much of what caused the average life expectancy in 1958 to be 67 years. Now we are looking at average life expectancies approaching 80. If it could be proven that periodic cognitive testing would enhance safety, then it might be considered.

Medical technology is no where were it needs to be. The cholesterol drugs you are referring to only reduce the bad cholesterol and solve half the issue. I just read a news report about Pfziser pulling a new experimental cholesterol drug out of testing because it was KILLING a high percentage of the subjects. Pfzier new cholesterol drug was suppose to raise the good number. It is still 10 years off if it ever comes.

If medical technology was so good how do you explain how little is known about the human body. The brain is a complete unknown. I also just heard a radio program talking about what a GREEN SPACE brain research is today. The reference to GREEN SPACE refers to the fact that any brain research can produce new unknown knowledge about the brain. The human brain is a complete unknown.

Do you want to be the brain research subject? I don't think they would find much in examining you.


If there was evidence that a pilot was suffering from dementia in the cockpit, it would be the moral responsibility of his fellow crewmembers to restrict him from the flight deck and notify the appropriate authorities. If this became commonplace, perhaps the FAA could justify a retirement age where these episodes no longer occurred. If it did not become commonplace, then the advocates of the elimination of a discriminatory law would be vindicated, albeit many years too late.

So you are advocating we use the public trust as an experiment because you and some of the other misguided pilots FEEL this is wrong. Take your FEELINGS and go put on a dress and find someone who cares.

This already happened in 1958. And the age limit was established at age 60 to do exactly what you just described, eliminate dementia in the cockpit.

You know just because it is 2006 doesn't mean there is anything new under the sun. Sure there have been refinements, but nothing that solves the problems you are wanting to create by increasing the age limit.
 
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Its not a "physical" wellness issue, its a mental wellness issue. Flying 121 isn't exactly physically demanding, but you do need the mental acuity to make decisions and stay awake.

You can't quantify that, so you need a limit that will be safe for the majority of pilots and their passengers. Age 60 is there for that reason.
FJ
 
Were aircraft plummeting in 1958 solely because of the age of the pilot? If so, the Age 60 rule should be lauded as a tremendous benefit to safety. If not, it should be seen for what it is.

The accident rate for Pt. 121 carriers was higher in 1958 than it is now. I can't prove that it was solely due to the Age 60 restriction, and you can't prove it wasn't.

How can you quantify the degree of safety that would be degraded by allowing 65 year-olds to act as PIC?

I can't, and I haven't tried to. (You need to pay better attention!) I have pointed out the factors that make changing the age problematic. They are two issues that can't be ignored: Standards and Self-certification.

What is the evidence that in other countries and in other types of flight operations, that the bulk of accidents are age-related?

1. "Other types of flight operations" is not germane. The traveling public doesn't care what the Zimbabwe Air Force's accident record is, or the number of fatal mishaps suffered by French ag pilots. They aren't sitting in the back of one of those aircraft.

2. US operated Pt. 121 airline travel is the safest mode of transportation in our solar system. Period. I contend that it is the safest because we have the most stringent regulations and restrictions. I believe Age 60 is just such a restriction. It's hard to argue with success. Are you sure you still want to?

Why demand the burden of proof now, even though it would be an acceptable risk.

You are not the "decider". You don't get to guess if the risk is "acceptable" for everyone. There is an agency in place that determines risk for the traveling public. Since it's the safest form of travel around, it appears their ideology is working properly.

Why not allow the travelling public to decide if they feel it is safe for them to fly with 60+ pilots or choose a carrier that does not employ such pilots.

You're kidding, right? If not, you should have your body cryogenically frozen so it can be defrosted in 100-years, when hopefully they've discovered a cure for Sudden Stupid Statement Syndrome.

Are you the self-appointed gaurdian for them as well?

On the flights where I'm the PIC, you bet yer hiney! (And it wasn't so much I was "self-appointed", I think it was more like King Arthur and Excaliber...it was my destiny)

Medical technology has improved and increased the lifespan of millions.

We're not talking about lifespan! We're talking about reflexes and cognitive ability. And let me repeat, both of them degrade as we age...no exceptions!

Cholesterol lowering medication, diabetes medication, blood pressure medications have staved off or reversed much of what caused the average life expectancy in 1958 to be 67 years. Now we are looking at average life expectancies approaching 80.

Each of those items addresses conditions that can be clinically measured and have a minimum/maximum standard in place. There are no minimum standards for reflexes and cogintive ability...nor are their non-subjective tests to measure them.

If it could be proven that periodic cognitive testing would enhance safety, then it might be considered.

Ok, now I KNOW you're not paying attention! Testing to what standard? What is the absolute minimum cognitive ability you can have and still fly an airliner safely? It's not exactly like measuring blood lipids or visual acuity.

If there was evidence that a pilot was suffering from dementia in the cockpit, it would be the moral responsibility of his fellow crewmembers to restrict him from the flight deck and notify the appropriate authorities.

Was that a joke? It is the moral and legal responsibility of the airman himself/herself to self-certify that he/she is fit for duty. The safety of our passengers should not depend on the ability of another crewmember to tell if the other pilot is processing data a little too slowly.

If this became commonplace, perhaps the FAA could justify a retirement age where these episodes no longer occurred. If it did not become commonplace, then the advocates of the elimination of a discriminatory law would be vindicated, albeit many years too late.

Good one! Using that logic, we should have manadatory alcohol testing of all pilots prior to every flight because we've had several incidents where pilots self-certified they weren't drunk...yet they were. (Not to worry...in each case the fellow crewmembers exercised their moral responsibility and turned them in....right?)
 
His term ends in less than thirty days, thank God. His whole term as swapa president he has done nothing but this age 60 bs, and of course spend tonnes of our money.
 
Many years ago I watched a corporate pilot face down his boss over one (1) foot of runway. The pilot set the runway requirement at 3000' for this particuliar airplane and his boss wanted to go into 2999'. I was impressed that the pilot stood his ground. The boss said "what's ONE foot a$$hole?", the pilot said: "off the end, sir".

I'm concerned about what happens next? If minority opinion is allowed to form policy on retirement age, we got problems. What happens when some guy like Bringingupthebird decides he's "discrimanted" against because he can't fly 1400 hrs per year like FAR 135? Or what if a new minority group of pilots (example: SWA, JB) wants to fly 1800 or 2000 hrs per year cause flight attendants can? Before you know it, we'll have pilots swapping all manner of safety protections for pennies.

Retirement age moving from 60 to 65 may not seem like much, However, IMHO, it's off the end.
 
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Pilots should not run airlines or make policy

Airline pilots have proven over and over they have no idea how to run an airline or make aviation policy. They will always put the airline into the ditch doing either.
 
SWAPA will no longer support change of age 60 after the leadership change in January. There will be another vote and we all know which way it will go. 99% of FOs and a surprising number of captains are against change.

I seriously doubt this but in any case if age 65 was phased in one year at a time it would have little impact on upgrade times and be a big benefit to the vast majority of this pilot group. I don't want my upgrade delayed either but I also would like the option to continue working and contributing to my mostly self-funded retirement plan.
 
I seriously doubt this but in any case if age 65 was phased in one year at a time it would have little impact on upgrade times and be a big benefit to the vast majority of this pilot group. I don't want my upgrade delayed either but I also would like the option to continue working and contributing to my mostly self-funded retirement plan.

The age 65 SWAPA crowd is NOT trying to do the right thing. SWAPA is trying to create a windfall for senior SWA pilots.

Age 65 will make 20 year pay caps, zero retirement benefits-B plans or 401k, furloughes during mergers, more complex intregration issues, increased medical testing, forced retirement as a result of the increased medical testing, unaffordable LTD options, and bidding issues with over 60 pilots.
 
Before you know it, we'll have pilots swapping all manner of safety protections for pennies.

Far more harm is done to air safety when straw man arguments against age 60 are passed off as a "safety issue". The credibility of those people who bring forth real safety issues is compromised by the grandstanders and soon no one listens to either of them.

Legitimate safety concerns should not be undermined by those who are pressing a thinly veiled attempt to move the seniority list on a little faster. Thankfully those in a position to change this lousy rule can easily see through the veil.
 
Far more harm is done to air safety when straw man arguments against age 60 are passed off as a "safety issue". The credibility of those people who bring forth real safety issues is compromised by the grandstanders and soon no one listens to either of them.

Legitimate safety concerns should not be undermined by those who are pressing a thinly veiled attempt to move the seniority list on a little faster. Thankfully those in a position to change this lousy rule can easily see through the veil.

Why don't you refute O.R.'s remarks? You're just trying to hold on to your
seniority and your seat for economic reasons, not safety reasons.

There is no reason to change a safety rule that served us well for decades only for the benefit of the few minority malcontents who were unable to financially plan their retirement.
 

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