Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

APAAD regrouping to challenge age 60

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Its not a "physical" wellness issue, its a mental wellness issue. Flying 121 isn't exactly physically demanding, but you do need the mental acuity to make decisions and stay awake.

You can't quantify that, so you need a limit that will be safe for the majority of pilots and their passengers. Age 60 is there for that reason.
FJ
 
Were aircraft plummeting in 1958 solely because of the age of the pilot? If so, the Age 60 rule should be lauded as a tremendous benefit to safety. If not, it should be seen for what it is.

The accident rate for Pt. 121 carriers was higher in 1958 than it is now. I can't prove that it was solely due to the Age 60 restriction, and you can't prove it wasn't.

How can you quantify the degree of safety that would be degraded by allowing 65 year-olds to act as PIC?

I can't, and I haven't tried to. (You need to pay better attention!) I have pointed out the factors that make changing the age problematic. They are two issues that can't be ignored: Standards and Self-certification.

What is the evidence that in other countries and in other types of flight operations, that the bulk of accidents are age-related?

1. "Other types of flight operations" is not germane. The traveling public doesn't care what the Zimbabwe Air Force's accident record is, or the number of fatal mishaps suffered by French ag pilots. They aren't sitting in the back of one of those aircraft.

2. US operated Pt. 121 airline travel is the safest mode of transportation in our solar system. Period. I contend that it is the safest because we have the most stringent regulations and restrictions. I believe Age 60 is just such a restriction. It's hard to argue with success. Are you sure you still want to?

Why demand the burden of proof now, even though it would be an acceptable risk.

You are not the "decider". You don't get to guess if the risk is "acceptable" for everyone. There is an agency in place that determines risk for the traveling public. Since it's the safest form of travel around, it appears their ideology is working properly.

Why not allow the travelling public to decide if they feel it is safe for them to fly with 60+ pilots or choose a carrier that does not employ such pilots.

You're kidding, right? If not, you should have your body cryogenically frozen so it can be defrosted in 100-years, when hopefully they've discovered a cure for Sudden Stupid Statement Syndrome.

Are you the self-appointed gaurdian for them as well?

On the flights where I'm the PIC, you bet yer hiney! (And it wasn't so much I was "self-appointed", I think it was more like King Arthur and Excaliber...it was my destiny)

Medical technology has improved and increased the lifespan of millions.

We're not talking about lifespan! We're talking about reflexes and cognitive ability. And let me repeat, both of them degrade as we age...no exceptions!

Cholesterol lowering medication, diabetes medication, blood pressure medications have staved off or reversed much of what caused the average life expectancy in 1958 to be 67 years. Now we are looking at average life expectancies approaching 80.

Each of those items addresses conditions that can be clinically measured and have a minimum/maximum standard in place. There are no minimum standards for reflexes and cogintive ability...nor are their non-subjective tests to measure them.

If it could be proven that periodic cognitive testing would enhance safety, then it might be considered.

Ok, now I KNOW you're not paying attention! Testing to what standard? What is the absolute minimum cognitive ability you can have and still fly an airliner safely? It's not exactly like measuring blood lipids or visual acuity.

If there was evidence that a pilot was suffering from dementia in the cockpit, it would be the moral responsibility of his fellow crewmembers to restrict him from the flight deck and notify the appropriate authorities.

Was that a joke? It is the moral and legal responsibility of the airman himself/herself to self-certify that he/she is fit for duty. The safety of our passengers should not depend on the ability of another crewmember to tell if the other pilot is processing data a little too slowly.

If this became commonplace, perhaps the FAA could justify a retirement age where these episodes no longer occurred. If it did not become commonplace, then the advocates of the elimination of a discriminatory law would be vindicated, albeit many years too late.

Good one! Using that logic, we should have manadatory alcohol testing of all pilots prior to every flight because we've had several incidents where pilots self-certified they weren't drunk...yet they were. (Not to worry...in each case the fellow crewmembers exercised their moral responsibility and turned them in....right?)
 
His term ends in less than thirty days, thank God. His whole term as swapa president he has done nothing but this age 60 bs, and of course spend tonnes of our money.
 
Many years ago I watched a corporate pilot face down his boss over one (1) foot of runway. The pilot set the runway requirement at 3000' for this particuliar airplane and his boss wanted to go into 2999'. I was impressed that the pilot stood his ground. The boss said "what's ONE foot a$$hole?", the pilot said: "off the end, sir".

I'm concerned about what happens next? If minority opinion is allowed to form policy on retirement age, we got problems. What happens when some guy like Bringingupthebird decides he's "discrimanted" against because he can't fly 1400 hrs per year like FAR 135? Or what if a new minority group of pilots (example: SWA, JB) wants to fly 1800 or 2000 hrs per year cause flight attendants can? Before you know it, we'll have pilots swapping all manner of safety protections for pennies.

Retirement age moving from 60 to 65 may not seem like much, However, IMHO, it's off the end.
 
Last edited:
Pilots should not run airlines or make policy

Airline pilots have proven over and over they have no idea how to run an airline or make aviation policy. They will always put the airline into the ditch doing either.
 
SWAPA will no longer support change of age 60 after the leadership change in January. There will be another vote and we all know which way it will go. 99% of FOs and a surprising number of captains are against change.

I seriously doubt this but in any case if age 65 was phased in one year at a time it would have little impact on upgrade times and be a big benefit to the vast majority of this pilot group. I don't want my upgrade delayed either but I also would like the option to continue working and contributing to my mostly self-funded retirement plan.
 
I seriously doubt this but in any case if age 65 was phased in one year at a time it would have little impact on upgrade times and be a big benefit to the vast majority of this pilot group. I don't want my upgrade delayed either but I also would like the option to continue working and contributing to my mostly self-funded retirement plan.

The age 65 SWAPA crowd is NOT trying to do the right thing. SWAPA is trying to create a windfall for senior SWA pilots.

Age 65 will make 20 year pay caps, zero retirement benefits-B plans or 401k, furloughes during mergers, more complex intregration issues, increased medical testing, forced retirement as a result of the increased medical testing, unaffordable LTD options, and bidding issues with over 60 pilots.
 
Before you know it, we'll have pilots swapping all manner of safety protections for pennies.

Far more harm is done to air safety when straw man arguments against age 60 are passed off as a "safety issue". The credibility of those people who bring forth real safety issues is compromised by the grandstanders and soon no one listens to either of them.

Legitimate safety concerns should not be undermined by those who are pressing a thinly veiled attempt to move the seniority list on a little faster. Thankfully those in a position to change this lousy rule can easily see through the veil.
 
Far more harm is done to air safety when straw man arguments against age 60 are passed off as a "safety issue". The credibility of those people who bring forth real safety issues is compromised by the grandstanders and soon no one listens to either of them.

Legitimate safety concerns should not be undermined by those who are pressing a thinly veiled attempt to move the seniority list on a little faster. Thankfully those in a position to change this lousy rule can easily see through the veil.

Why don't you refute O.R.'s remarks? You're just trying to hold on to your
seniority and your seat for economic reasons, not safety reasons.

There is no reason to change a safety rule that served us well for decades only for the benefit of the few minority malcontents who were unable to financially plan their retirement.
 
Far more harm is done to air safety when straw man arguments against age 60 are passed off as a "safety issue".

Prove it!

The credibility of those people who bring forth real safety issues is compromised by the grandstanders and soon no one listens to either of them.

Can I add another category? Those who brush-off legitmate safety issues because they are blinded by personal financial concerns.

Thankfully those in a position to change this lousy rule can easily see through the veil.

You got that right! The FAA doesn't want to change a rule that's working just because momma don't like daddy's paycut.
 
Age 60 is there for that reason.
FJ



You need to study up on the history of age 60 because that is not the reason it is there.
 
You need to study up on the history of age 60 because that is not the reason it is there.

Start with the Doolittle Commission study from 1952 where it specifically brought up the issue that, at some point, aging begins to offset a pilot's experience and judgment. The Commission recommended setting up a committee to study the issue of pilot aging. A committee was set up in 1953.
All of that occurred WELL before Quesada was appointed Administrator of the FAA. Were you referring to the urban legend of the Quesada/Smith conspiracy?
 
Andy, whats up? People are saying this whole thing has rolled over and they are quoting lobbyists. Any info would be appreciated

*koff, koff* Bull *koff* sh *koff* it.

All legislation from the 109th is dead; clean slate for the 110th.
That said, the 110th will take the appropriations bills from the 109th and run them back through subcommittees (those subcommittees are now controlled by Dems) before rolling everything into one big omnibus appropriations bill. It's a dicey call; the Dems need 60 votes to pass an omnibus bill.
As for the Transportation appropriations bill, it's highly likely that the age 65 text would be stripped out; Congress does NOT, I repeat, DOES NOT, like including legislative actions in appropriations bills. If the Dems go the omnibus route, they will make the omnibus bill as unoffensive as possible.

The subcommittee that allowed S 65 to be attached to the transportation appropriations bill will no longer have Conrad Burns or Mike DeWine on it. Christopher Bond (R-MO) will no longer be the Chairperson; it will be Patty Murray (D-WA). The membership will now be a majority of Dems; Ted Stevens (aka Sen Bridge to Nowhere) who sits on the subcommittee will have a HARD time keeping the text of S 65 in the appropriations bill.

Here's a fairly good newsletter by a pro-change guy:
http://www.ppf.org/newslet.htm

The CR merely keeps the federal govt funded. It doesn't give life to the appropriations bills from the 109th. But those bills will be used as templates for the now Dem controlled subcommittees.
 
The age 65 SWAPA crowd is NOT trying to do the right thing. SWAPA is trying to create a windfall for senior SWA pilots.

Age 65 will make 20 year pay caps, zero retirement benefits-B plans or 401k, furloughes during mergers, more complex intregration issues, increased medical testing, forced retirement as a result of the increased medical testing, unaffordable LTD options, and bidding issues with over 60 pilots.

huh? Go have another beer
 
Its not a "physical" wellness issue, its a mental wellness issue. Flying 121 isn't exactly physically demanding, but you do need the mental acuity to make decisions and stay awake.

You can't quantify that, so you need a limit that will be safe for the majority of pilots and their passengers. Age 60 is there for that reason.
FJ

All you guys are full of sh!7. The only reason anyone opposes raising the age is because of seniority issues. It is all selfishness on both sides. At least be honest about this.
 
Far more harm is done to air safety when straw man arguments against age 60 are passed off as a "safety issue". The credibility of those people who bring forth real safety issues is compromised by the grandstanders and soon no one listens to either of them.

Legitimate safety concerns should not be undermined by those who are pressing a thinly veiled attempt to move the seniority list on a little faster. Thankfully those in a position to change this lousy rule can easily see through the veil.

OK, decent post. Maybe we could agree that ANY safety concern, no matter it's agreed upon degree of "legitimacy", should NOT be decided based on ANY fiscal consideration? Using that as a baseline we shouldn't change the age. Discrimination does not trump safety, and age 65 cannot be proved safer. Plus, age 65 is just as discriminatory as 60.

The slippery slope here is (for example): If an FAR change were availed to pilots that allowed for 150 hours per month, a number of pilots (not unlike yourself) would like to see it become reality. Dollar signs would be all the motivation they would need to rationalize it a good idea. They would attach the arguement to one that is more powerful (like discrimination) and try to push it through. Most pilots are smart enough to know 150 hours per month is not safe, just like most of them know age 60 is a good retirement age.
 
Last edited:
All you guys are full of sh!7. The only reason anyone opposes raising the age is because of seniority issues. It is all selfishness on both sides. At least be honest about this.

The FAA opposes it...and they don't give a hoot about seniority. I oppose it, and am senior enough to not care.

Remember, all generalizations are false...including this one.
 
All you guys are full of sh!7. The only reason anyone opposes raising the age is because of seniority issues. It is all selfishness on both sides. At least be honest about this.

jhill: No you are full of shiat. I oppose a change because of the safety and fairness issues. Believe what you want, but that is why I oppose a change.

All this pissing up a rope on FI isn't going to make a hill of beans worth of difference, the FAA or Congress will shove this down our throats or they won't. The least of either of their concerns will be what the pilots think about the change.

FJ
 
Discrimination does not trump safety, and age 65 cannot be proved safer. Plus, age 65 is just as discriminatory as 60.
The argument is that 65 is EQUALLY as safe as 60. And to deny an incremental change because of the existance of the absurd extreme is ridiculous. Raising the age by 5 years with adequate oversight is not the same as acquiescing to the demands of those who want to fly to 100.

The
slippery slope here is (for example): If an FAR change were availed to pilots that allowed for 150 hours per month, a number of pilots (not unlike yourself) would like to see it become reality. Dollar signs would be all the motivation they would need to rationalize it a good idea. They would attach the arguement to one that is more powerful (like discrimination) and try to push it through. Most pilots are smart enough to know 150 hours per month is not safe, just like most of them know age 60 is a good retirement age.
Again you undermine your argument by taking it to the absurd extreme. It is unreasonable to say that the status quo is perfect and therefore superior to any change that might have even the slightest degree of uncertainty to it. To say that any solution must be perfect or it is rejected is just as unreasonable. Why should a solution that would help thousands of pilots adapt to a new reality necessarily result in all the protections offered by the FARs to be swept away? Do you really believe this and if not, why clutter the argument further?

Furthermore, I fly about 35 hours a month on reserve. Otherwise I play with my little kids as much as possible. I highly recommend it.
 
The argument is that 65 is EQUALLY as safe as 60. And to deny an incremental change because of the existance of the absurd extreme is ridiculous. Raising the age by 5 years with adequate oversight is not the same as acquiescing to the demands of those who want to fly to 100.

The
Again you undermine your argument by taking it to the absurd extreme. It is unreasonable to say that the status quo is perfect and therefore superior to any change that might have even the slightest degree of uncertainty to it. To say that any solution must be perfect or it is rejected is just as unreasonable. Why should a solution that would help thousands of pilots adapt to a new reality necessarily result in all the protections offered by the FARs to be swept away? Do you really believe this and if not, why clutter the argument further?

Furthermore, I fly about 35 hours a month on reserve. Otherwise I play with my little kids as much as possible. I highly recommend it.

If you want to change something that is already perfectly safe, you have to assure the same level of safety is contained with in the change. You can't. One pilot has to be under 60.

The slippery slope I'm talking about, is making changes based on what a minority number of pilots think is smart.
 
If you want to change something that is already perfectly safe, you have to assure the same level of safety is contained with in the change. You can't. One pilot has to be under 60.

The slippery slope I'm talking about, is making changes based on what a minority number of pilots think is smart.

What?

One pilot under sixty is NOT as safe as two pilots under 60.
 
If you want to change something that is already perfectly safe, you have to assure the same level of safety is contained with in the change. You can't. One pilot has to be under 60.

The slippery slope I'm talking about, is making changes based on what a minority number of pilots think is smart.

Wait a second, PERFECTLY SAFE?? No pilot incapacitations have been recorded? No system is perfectly safe, but raising the retirement age would maintain equivalent safety, according to most experts in this field.

Didn't aircraft used to be certified with 3 crewmembers? How did the FAA reconcile this risky move? Are all passengers in danger because there are fewer FE's? What about navigators? Radio Operators? Is there some conspiracy to put passengers at risk?????
 
Wait a second, PERFECTLY SAFE?? No pilot incapacitations have been recorded? No system is perfectly safe, but raising the retirement age would maintain equivalent safety, according to most experts in this field.

Didn't aircraft used to be certified with 3 crewmembers? How did the FAA reconcile this risky move? Are all passengers in danger because there are fewer FE's? What about navigators? Radio Operators? Is there some conspiracy to put passengers at risk?????

Hey bud, plenty of pilots fought for the 3rd pilot to stay in the cockpit, weakling attudes like yours is why we lost it!

Perfectly safe? I think so. Can't recall any accidents caused by incapacitations. Am I forgeting one?

If 65 were perfect there would be NO requirement for one pilot under 60. Simple as that.
 
Orginal topic of this post

This thread is about APAAD and SWA.

What is the latest on SWAPA officially putting out a vote on the age 60 issue? And this question refers to a formal vote not telephone polling?
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom