Anyone know this guy running for ALPA pres?

[Catbird]

Please Rez- Get out from under Duane's desk. Your suffering from Hypoxia and blood loss from those lacerated knee's and blistered lips. Suck it up for the old Prez and scurry on out to the front office and freshen up. Duane can function for a little while before he needs another "Caucus" session.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

DW has done an excellent job building political coalitions in WashingtonDC. While the average line pilot has no clue about this or the value, it furthers the agenda of ALPA.

Maybe you haven't been around for a while, being a second generation pilot in a family of pilots, My career, job, lifestyle, family's retirement, have all taken it in the shorts. I guess those connections really paid off for.... YOU?

You seem to want everyone to think of you as some sort of know it all, with inside scoop. I think you have no idea, and just read a couple of books to install yourself as a hero. You're not even in the ball park.

 

[Palomino]

However, despite your ignorant remarks and attitude, ALPA Nat'l has alienated themselves with the average line pilot.

The problem is though, again and again, the average line pilot is about as smart, politically, as a box of frozen rocks.

The average line pilot responds to the current economic choas like a mob fenzy. They remind me of the lower class that riot thier own neighborhoods and hang thier own when socio-political tensions erupt.

Air Line pilots are like inner city blacks. Always blaming someone else, always attacking thier fellow pilots like black on black on crime, ignorant and uneducated, pissing where they eat only to complain the food sucks.

Your 1.95% is expected.

When you think of the average line pilot (the highly educated and specially trained individuals) as ignorant and uneducated and a 'box of frozen rocks' then maybe you can begin to understand why we want Woerth and his subordinates off of the ALPA throne.

You sound like a political elitist who is afraid of losing his post. Prater scares guys like you. He's a pilot first, then a politician. Prater is in tune with his peers. May he bring a REV O LEWSHUN to ALPA national.

 

[b19]

You need to apoligize Rez

You talk about the average line pilot being politically ignorant, and then make racist remarks about "inner city blacks".

Why don't you look at our military and realize how many inner city blacks are fighting in Iraq and elswhere.

Until you apologize you sir, are an ASSSS.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, you know that I agree that influence in DC is certainly important for the profession, but the time has come to prioritize. Captain Woerth has done an excellent job in DC, but should that really be our top priority? The number one responsibility of any labor organization is collective bargaining. Under the leadership of Captain Woerth, ALPA has failed miserably in this responsibility. While ALPA accounts have continued to grow and relationships have been built on Capital Hill (all good things, don't get me wrong), the profession has taken a hit on the collective bargaining front that will take several decades to recover from. Individual pilot groups certainly share in the blame, but a true leader should take responsibility and admit that the "buck stops here."

I think one of the reasons there is a disconnect is too many of us expect the ALPA President to be the "buck stops here" guy. Why can't the buck stop at the MEC level? They negotiated the concessionary contract. Thier membership voted it in. Then it goes to National and the president says.. "HOLY SH!T what is this piece of crap! Are you sure this is the best you can do?" National is the back stop..... Why do ALPA pilots expect the President to do what they failed to do themselves?

Here is the Presidents duties... and ratitification... seems to me ratification is more on the membership than President. however, DW has refused to sign contracts and that has caused an airline to cease operation.. specifically Midway in RDU...

SECTION 4 ‑ JURISDICTION AND DUTIES

A. The President shall be the Chief Executive and Administrative Head of the Association. He shall supervise the affairs of the Association, its functions and shall coordinate its activities. He shall be responsible for and supervise the managerial functions within the Association. The President shall consult with and be assisted by the First Vice President, Vice President-Administration/Secretary, Vice President-Finance/Treasurer and the Executive Council in furthering the objectives and policies of the Board of Directors and the Executive Board. He shall have such other administrative assistants he may deem necessary.

B. The President shall determine and implement the organizational structure of the Home Office in accordance with the declared policies of the Board of Directors and Executive Board.

C. The President is charged with carrying out the policies of the Board of Directors and the Executive Board. He shall, unless otherwise provided in this Constitution and By‑Laws, serve as Chairman of the Board of Directors, the Executive Board, and the Executive Council.



D. The President shall provide an annual report to each member immediately following the annual audit which shall include, but shall not be limited to, the following: Report of the President on the state of the Association; reports by major ALPA Committees; income/expense statement and balance sheet, all of which shall be presented in a manner which is useful to the membership. The report shall be posted to ALPA’s official Internet site, www.alpa.org, with the financial information available to members only via the Intranet. This electronic posting shall fulfill the President’s reporting requirement except to those members who have elected to receive their ALPA communications via U.S. Mail.

E. The President may ballot the Board of Directors or the Executive Board for any cause he deems necessary. Should flight security problems of an international, regional or operational character require, or for any other reason in which only a portion of the membership is concerned, the President may ballot the Master Executive Councils involved. Should these flight security problems be of such a serious nature that the President may desire to call withdrawal of service of all carriers, he shall be so authorized after he conducts a ballot of the Executive Board.

F. The President shall be required to ballot the Board of Directors as provided in Part 2B of the Strike Policy.

G. Additionally, the President shall perform any duties mentioned elsewhere in the Constitution and By‑Laws.

​

​

ARTICLE XVIII - AGREEMENT APPROVAL AND VALIDATION​

SECTION 1 ‑ COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

Conference or negotiations shall not be initiated, carried on, or concluded in the name of ALPA by any member, group, or groups of members thereof to make or establish employment agreements relating to rates of pay, rules, or other conditions of employment, or any other agreements, contracts, or documents of a similar or related character, or any other form of agreements, contracts, or documents without the prior approval of the President. Any and all agreements, contracts, or documents of any and every character whatsoever shall not become effective, binding or operative unless and until they bear the signature of the President.

SECTION 2 ‑ RATIFICATION

A. Any contract, letter of agreement or letter of understanding that, in the opinion of the MEC, substantially affects the pay, working conditions, retirement, or career security of member pilots will be subject to membership ratification under the following terms and conditions:

(1) The MEC will, at its option, ballot the membership of their airline to determine if it is their desire to have membership ratification. Once membership ratification is established it will remain in effect until changed by another ballot of the membership through MEC action.

(2) Unless the membership is balloted, as described in Section 2A(1) of this Article, membership ratification of individual contracts and agreements will remain the option of the MEC.

​

Is Captain Prater the right guy for the job? I honestly don't know yet. I've received several campaign mailings from him, and I've liked what I've seen, but I still need more information before deciding if he can lead us in the direction we need to go. At this point, I'm just keeping an open mind. I won't get on the "anybody but Woerth" bandwagon, but I would like to see a change if someone is qualified. Hopefully Captain Prater turns out to be the right guy.

Glad to see you are taking a calm, pragmatic and professional decision making skills from the cockpit and applying them to the political facet of our careers....

My biggest concern with Prater is no National experience. I think he is a great candidate for Sec/treas.. just like Pat Burke form CAL who is going from no ALPA National expereince to First VP.

The First VP is in charge of IFALPA. That is a big step.... going from Local CAL guy to international traveling salesman of ALPA.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Maybe you haven't been around for a while, being a second generation pilot in a family of pilots, My career, job, lifestyle, family's retirement, have all taken it in the shorts. I guess those connections really paid off for.... YOU?

I've taken it pretty hard too. We all have. ALL 100,000 of us. ALPA or not. Every Air Line pilot is getting hammered.

You seem to want everyone to think of you as some sort of know it all, with inside scoop. I think you have no idea, and just read a couple of books to install yourself as a hero. You're not even in the ball park.

No I am not a know it all. I've alot to learn. But I did learn alot when I acutally read the book and not listened to the crewroom chatter. I apply that to line flying too. I read the flight manual and not listen to the cool guys. it keeps me safe...

I got to tell you though.. Trying to debate with guys that want to "burn it all" down gets old. what does that accomplish?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You sound like a political elitist who is afraid of losing his post. Prater scares guys like you. He's a pilot first, then a politician. Prater is in tune with his peers. May he bring a REV O LEWSHUN to ALPA national.

Of course I disagree. ALPA in Washington DC is political. It is how we function.

If you need to go to court. get a lawyer...
If you need medical care.. get a doctor..
If you need jet transport.. get a pilot..

if you need political effectiveness.. get a politican...

Prater maybe the guy... I am wide open..... let democracy rule...

However, if he does get elected, he will become more politican than line pilot... How can he not be...? He will be no where near a jet and submerged in the political scene. And that is OK.

How about this guy Pat Burke.. running for 1VP? he says he will fly once a month. Sorry... it just won't happen.... in fact I see it as a play for votes and in acutality irresponsibile. Because in order to fly once a month he has to stay current. Going to the school house every 6 months means more than one day a month away from ALPA National duties. I need someone who is going to man the store...

Wse don't need line pilots at ALPA national. We need politicians who understand the line pilot. Win win is politicans who used to be line pilots.


The ignorance comes from pilots not realizing that ALPA is neck deep in politics in DC. The sooner we realize this and embrace it.. the more effective we will be....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You talk about the average line pilot being politically ignorant, and then make racist remarks about "inner city blacks".

Why don't you look at our military and realize how many inner city blacks are fighting in Iraq and elswhere.

Until you apologize you sir, are an ASSSS.

Not sure how the comment was racist. If it is then I will apologize.

Throughout history, many black communites have rioted thier own neighborhood. Many blacks murder each other to the point that black on black crime is considered an epidemic. Many blacks are poorly educated. (many whites too..). Is this fact or am I creating a stereotype based on skin color?

Many sociologist state that poor blacks should take more responsibility for thier condition and improve thier circumstance instead of blaming "the man". That is the analogy I am am making. Is that racist?

Yes.. many blacks join the military and are serving our country. I am grateful and respectful of thier service.

 

[PCL_128]

I think one of the reasons there is a disconnect is too many of us expect the ALPA President to be the "buck stops here" guy. Why can't the buck stop at the MEC level?

Quite simply, because that's not the way the system is set up. The President of the Association is the final decision maker. I don't expect him to second guess every contract decision that an MEC/pilot group makes, but he should definitely think long and hard before signing multiple contracts that contain nearly 50% cuts in compensation. Pilot groups and individual MECs are frequently caught between a rock and a hard place and feel they have no choice. Their vision is clouded by fears of lost jobs and bankruptcy at their own airlines. The President is an objective third party not under duress that can make the final decision over these things. In my opinion, Captain Woerth has been derelict in his duties in this area. The profession may never recover from the past five years, and I think the President shares in the blame for that.

My biggest concern with Prater is no National experience.

I agree, and it would be nice to have a candidate with extensive experience at National, but we don't have that luxury. I think we have to decide which is preferable: an incumbent with extensive National experience that has presided over the worst decline in this profession in ALPA history, or a candidate with little National experience that has some real ideas to lead us out of this horrible decline. Like I said, I still haven't decided, but I'm definitely leaning in one direction.

The First VP is in charge of IFALPA. That is a big step.... going from Local CAL guy to international traveling salesman of ALPA.....

In his defense, it's my understanding that Capt. Burke worked extensively with IFALPA as part of his duties as IACP President. I don't believe this will be a new responsibility for him.

 

[superatr]

just like Pat Burke form CAL who is going from no ALPA National expereince to First VP.

The First VP is in charge of IFALPA. That is a big step.... going from Local CAL guy to international traveling salesman of ALPA.....

There is already a candidate for 1VP with national and international experience...www.paulrice2006.com.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

You talk about the average line pilot being politically ignorant, and then make racist remarks about "inner city blacks".

Why don't you look at our military and realize how many inner city blacks are fighting in Iraq and elswhere.

Until you apologize you sir, are an ASSSS.

Don't try to play your bullsh!t race card here. Get the he!! out. More whites are in that war, already done by your moronic speakers, Sharpton and Jessie, which was debunked on national tv after the war started. Piss off

Ya, talk trash about the person, but don't try that crap. Grow up. Stay on the topic.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Quite simply, because that's not the way the system is set up.

You'll need to reference policy or precedence. You saying the system is... is not conclusive.

The President of the Association is the final decision maker. I don't expect him to second guess every contract decision that an MEC/pilot group makes, but he should definitely think long and hard before signing multiple contracts that contain nearly 50% cuts in compensation.

ALPA National functions as our repsresentative in Washington DC on National issues. He is not the final decision maker for local MEC's. If the president was as you suggested then the new complaint would be that ALPA National meddles in MEC affairs too much. As of now that is a managements compliant.

Pilot groups and individual MECs are frequently caught between a rock and a hard place and feel they have no choice. Their vision is clouded by fears of lost jobs and bankruptcy at their own airlines. The President is an objective third party not under duress that can make the final decision over these things.

This is a big statement that you are making. Which to me reads that MEC's are not repsonsibile for thier own... If this were the case, then the mind set would be from the MEC and NC.. we'll put out a crappy TA and just let the President shoot it down, then we'll go back to the company and say... sorry, the Big Guy said no.

This happened at Midway and the company did shut down and ALPA pilots lost thier jobs. If the President said no to the UAL, DAL and NWA concessionary TA's the company might say 'fine... we are going to cut costs somehow... via massive furlough'.... Now, the President has caused more people to lose thier jobs. A 100% pay cut is alot worse than 50%.

Let's keep in mind the current circumstance.. terrorism, gov't and poor management.

In my opinion, Captain Woerth has been derelict in his duties in this area. The profession may never recover from the past five years, and I think the President shares in the blame for that.

What should he have done differently? Specifically....

I think if he was derelict then a recall would be going down.... I think any president in this current environement would not have a favorable approval rating...

I say he should have made a better connection to the membership. Pragmatic and mature people understand terrorism, predatory management, anti labor Admins, etc... What they don't like is aloof or distant leadership, like DW.

If DW kept a good connection with the membership, I think we could've been much more effective in convincing management and gov't of our collective power. However, we can't convince managment or gov't if we are in fighting and don't understand how the organization functions... this is one of our big problems that we can control. Our own understanding and involvment.

Do Air Line Pilots have to have great/good contracts to be effective ALPA members? Is thier pride in profession dependant on income?

My concern is, despite DW's leadership failure with the rank and file, as Air Line Pilots we've disregarded our leadership role. We have assumed a dependant role on one guy....


Which is confusing.. becuase on the Line, we are the leaders of the operation. But once we leave the flightdeck we assume a followership role in our careers, putting our hopes and wishes into one guy?

I won't do that. The president of ALPA is not the sole provider of good contracts for my career. I am not giving him or her that much control....

In his defense, it's my understanding that Capt. Burke worked extensively with IFALPA as part of his duties as IACP President. I don't believe this will be a new responsibility for him.

copy that... the truth is what it is....

 

[PCL_128]

You'll need to reference policy or precedence. You saying the system is... is not conclusive.

Are you disputing that the President is ultimately required to sign any new CBA before it is officially ratified? I didn't think that there was a question about that.

This is a big statement that you are making. Which to me reads that MEC's are not repsonsibile for thier own... If this were the case, then the mind set would be from the MEC and NC.. we'll put out a crappy TA and just let the President shoot it down, then we'll go back to the company and say... sorry, the Big Guy said no.

This happened at Midway and the company did shut down and ALPA pilots lost thier jobs. If the President said no to the UAL, DAL and NWA concessionary TA's the company might say 'fine... we are going to cut costs somehow... via massive furlough'.... Now, the President has caused more people to lose thier jobs. A 100% pay cut is alot worse than 50%.

This line of thinking is what has lead us to the horrendous position where are now in. "Fifty percent of my pay is better than none." That attitude is destroying us. The line must be drawn somewhere. Is 40% better also? How about 25%? Where do you draw the line? More importantly, where does the Association President draw the line? Furloughs and bankrupt carriers are certainly horrible things, but you can't let the fears of them dictate your actions entirely.

Let's keep in mind the current circumstance.. terrorism, gov't and poor management.

None of which justified the draconian cuts we have experienced over the past five years. Careful, you are sounding like the management goons that sit across the table from us. "You guys are going to have to take these concessions. What, with terrorism and all these taxes we just can't afford to pay you that much anymore." We don't manage airlines and balance the books. We fly airplanes.

What should he have done differently? Specifically....

For starters, refused to sign the concessionary agreements at the legacy carriers.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Are you disputing that the President is ultimately required to sign any new CBA before it is officially ratified? I didn't think that there was a question about that.

Nope. What I am saying is the President isn't soley responsibile for the agreement. Again, the NC with managment creates the document with the cuts. The MEC approves it. Sends it to the membership. The memebership ratifies it. Then it goes to the President. So why does the president bear the majority of repsonsibilty?

This line of thinking is what has lead us to the horrendous position where are now in. "Fifty percent of my pay is better than none." That attitude is destroying us. The line must be drawn somewhere. Is 40% better also? How about 25%? Where do you draw the line? More importantly, where does the Association President draw the line? Furloughs and bankrupt carriers are certainly horrible things, but you can't let the fears of them dictate your actions entirely.

Explain 50% is better than none to the guy that gets furloughed and has kids and a house payment. Perhaps until you've been furloughed and displaced a couple times and have to explain to the wife that ALPA is taking one for the team and your family is the sacrificial lamb... you'll understand the reality of what is going on out there....

Everyone wants someone else to fall on thier sword.

I understand your position....decisions made have real consequences. But you are rattling a saber without the personal repsonaibilty of the consequences.. IOW.. it is easier said than done.

None of which justified the draconian cuts we have experienced over the past five years. Careful, you are sounding like the management goons that sit across the table from us. "You guys are going to have to take these concessions. What, with terrorism and all these taxes we just can't afford to pay you that much anymore." We don't manage airlines and balance the books. We fly airplanes.

That is your opinion.. again. Which is saying that you know better than the UAL, DAL, Alaska, NWA, CAL NC, MEC, membership, legal counsel, both internal and external and E&FA.

You maybe right. But only time will tell... which means that it is a guess on your part... Not the pragmatic application that all of the above pilots groups went thru....

For starters, refused to sign the concessionary agreements at the legacy carriers.

It is not that simple....as much as you'd like it to be.... Why not ask DW and the other National Officers at the BOD this Fall.....

 

[PCL_128]

Why not ask DW and the other National Officers at the BOD this Fall.....

Trust me. I plan on it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Trust me. I plan on it.

Keep the FI crowd informed!

 

[Cookie Monster]

There is already a candidate for 1VP with national and international experience...www.paulrice2006.com.

Rice is just another DW lackey.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Duane has done well with the finances of ALPA, but what good is a warchest if your afraid to go to war.

I've said it before and I'll say it again....how can you go to war when it is pretty clear that the troops don't want war.

Look at the majority of pilots that have voted in favor of concessionary contracts...those guys aren't willing to go to war....the majority...

Tejas

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rice is just another DW lackey.

do tell.................

 

[whymeworry?]

John Prater is a TRUE unionist, a real stand up guy, a pilot's pilot.

FULL TERM STRIKER!!!

He is also one to bring all parties together to create some sort of concensus amoung the group rather than allow continued infighting to prevail.

While he has always been a major pilot, yet he respects the plight of regional pilots as well and, IMO, beleives a pilot is a pilot no matter what he equip his is on. At least that's my take based on my many years of dealing with him.

I am not his personal cheer leader, in fact I haven't spoken with John in over 5 years, but I will say that every time I have had a question as to the direction of our contract whether at COEX or at CAL he always returned my calls promptly and provided sound advice based on reality. He stands up to management in a manner that is productive to pilots, yet in a way that keeps mgmt on their toes.

I believe he will be the one to save ALPA.

While anything is better than worethless, John is more than a solid alternative. I would pit him up against any ALPA candidate ever.

Btw, I am not an "ALPA-ist", I do not drink kool-aid, I am just calling it like I see it. I don't even wear my ALPA pin (as long as D. Woerthelss is pres)Honestly, I really mean it when I tell you John Prater is probably the best candidate to run for ALPA in 30 years. I truly hope he wins.

Hmmmm... I think I'll call his campaign HQ and volunteer.