Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[414Flyer]

Well I am certainly not neutral on the subject.

I am sure some people could use that same excuse for other activities too. "Well if i had not sold all this crack, I could not have afforded this Ferrari".. Not that PFT is illegal, but in the same manner, it is not a "victimless" activity to me.

Anytime you do things, like offer to fly for free, or fly for cheaper than what they are paying someone, or even pay to fly, you make it harder on everyone else than has that job next.

There is certainly a lot more to flying, at least to me, than how fast I can get ahead, or how fast I can get some job.

And I certainly dont want to do something that is gonna screw those who come after me.

It also serves to depress wages, and the professionalism (which can sure be lacking at times) in aviation.

I treat flying as a job, which is what it is. Sure, it can be great at times, but its still just a job, whose purpose is to support me. Doing things like flying for free, and paying to fly, are an anathma and something I never have and never will do. Sorry, getting ahead faster than everyone else just aint that important to me

Its not why I got into flying

 

[CDNJetPilot]

PFT

I agree with you 414Flyer, and like the fact you want to make flying a more professional career. I'm not trying to get ahead of the queue, but I have friends who have flown in the artic and now fly A330's and friends who have went through GS. All I'm asking, is that if someone is joining this profession late in the game, how can you accumulate time in a quick manner? I'm not trying to defend PFT or start a battle of what is right or wrong, but I won't condemn those who went through PFT. For instance, and this is way off on a tangent, but in Canada there so few staring jobs in aviation. I have a friend who looked for a year to find a job. He now works on a dock in a fishing camp loading fuel into planes. I give him credit, but he is also very young and has lots of years ahead to build time. He 'might' get some hours this year. This is after he went and spent $40G at an aviation college. For me, being a bit older, I'm trying to find a method of getting those first magic 500 hours. And, on a side note, instructing is very very slow here.

 

[GooodLaaa]

PFT

I've got alot of time instructing and I've also learned alot. The only problem is multi time for me. I'm stuck. However, PFT is not the option I want or will choose. I dont agree with taking a "paying job" from a qualified pilot. It's counterproducitve to the entire industry. I have spent alot at college for my education, but it's more dollars than I want to put in for A F/O position. After all, it's not a Type rating by any means.

P.S.....Those of you havent instructed can kiss my A$$. If you pretend you to know how CFI/ CFII have it, please try the job. I'm not bitter, it's taught me alot, but dont discount the job.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T and Gulfstream

Despite how some people feel, age has nothing to do with P-F-T. "Stuck" has nothing to do with it. Ten years ago, I was "stuck," too, in flight instructing. P-F-T was starting up and I asked myself, is a commuter job, or any job, for that matter, so important that I would pay cash for it? I never heard of P-F-T in any other industry. Notwithstanding the bogus time, impact on other pilots and my career, and con game aspects of it.

CDNJetPilot, you are still a spring chicken. I believe the cutoff for military flight training is either 26 or 27, so you have a few years to go yet before you're put out to pasture. Disregard what your friend said. He probably has yet to experience an interview board of pilots who clawed their way to the top. Go find a flight training program you like, train, and instruct to build hours to the point where 135 and/or commuters will want you. Take it from someone who knows, you'll be far better off in the long run.

Good luck with your training. Come back if you need help with choosing a program.

GooodLaaa, good comments. Good luck with finding some multi time.

 

[GooodLaaa]

Thanks BBSMD, I'm Trying. I know things will pay off some day. After all I"m real young (23), so no rush (other than senority #). Besides, I'm learning alot and living in my hometown. Support is always nice though, I like instructing and it's something I'll continue even after I'm flying something with a burner can. To all CFI/ CFII's just do it and put you time in. It's worth it!

CJC

 

[CDNJetPilot]

bobbysamd

Thanks for the reply. I'll keep at it for now. I'm working and do flight training on the weekends and some evenings. Once I complete my ratings, I'll consider and probably do the CFI program here (in Canada). I may have a chance to teach with the school I'm training at now. The bonus is it's my home town so I have places to stay for little $$$. And yes, I'll have more questions later for you I'm sure. Take Care.

 

[Medivacer]

CDN jetpilot:

I'm a Canadian pilot flying in Canada. I don't mean to disrespect what some here say, but they don't know what it's like here. However I will tell you this. The industry is very small here and PFT is a big no-no here aswell. You don't want your name associated with it.

I'm only months older than my teen years and flying. I eat, sleep and breath flying. My roomate is 30 and is in the same seat as I am (we work opposite "shifts" of each other). 25 is not old in this industry.

I'd very happy to answer any questions you might have. Feel free to PM me.

Best of luck to you endevours.

 

[de727ups]

PFT

<<I have no intention of trying to steal someone's job, and if an opportunity to work as an unpaid FO came along I'd take it.>>

PFT and working for free is stealing someone's job. Any questions?

 

[CDNJetPilot]

PFT

I guess where I was coming from with that one is I know of a small charter company near by who was willing to let me fly "FO" to build time and eventually they'd do my PPC on type and let me be the PIC. Otherwise the plane is flown single pilot. It's more of a ride along to learn rather than being a FO. Sorry, my wording was poor in that quote.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T and Age Discrimination

It wasn't a matter of P-F-T being the "fastest" way in 1991-'92, it was really the only way for someone like me, at age 40, during a war and at the height of a recession. I will go to my grave believing that age was the reason for me being overlooked.

I look at it inductively. I had the same or better quals than my younger (25 or less) colleagues; they had nothing that gave them an advantage over me, such as 135 time. They were flight instructors, just like me. They were the ones being hired, not me. I was up front about my age because it would have been figured out eventually. I realized a small return on my resume output. The silence on my answering machine was deafening. My mailbox was a regular receptacle of occasional polite "we will keep your resume on file" postcards, while younger folks were getting the jobs that were available at these same companies. It takes neither a pilot or rocket scientist to figure it out.

I wanted to feel that it was my quals and personal attributes that would get me the job and not my balance sheet. It is one thing when people can meet you and decide for themselves if they don't like you. But, when your resumes are round-filed without anyone meeting you face-to-face it must be another reason if you're otherwise meeting or exceeding their requirements. I am convinced that for me it was because of age.

I could opine on the inherent unfairness of P-F-T letting you cut in front of the line of others (I guess I just did!). I feel that can have its consequences down the road.

It sure seems that P-F-T is alive and living in South Florida and elsewhere with all the magazine ads and posts of websites we see.

I think your Marine bud, Jim, will get his chance if he can instruct his way to commuter mins. USMC says a lot about him as a person, in and of itself. He certainly isn't too old. Someone like me, at my age back then, and now, apparently, was not congruent with the commuters' profile of the "perfect" candidate.

I appreciate your comments, Jim, about my sour grapes positions on P-F-T. As always, drop another couple of pennies into the P-F-T opinion fund for me.

 

[Timebuilder]

I didn't want to miss this golden opportunity to miss out on the revival of this old thread......oooooooohhhhhh baby!

As far as age discrimination is concerned, a former DO explained to me the other day that his opinion is this: the airlines want (his words here) pretty boys, meaning younger and vital looking, as opposed to better qualified, more experienced, more mature appearing "men" for their entry positions.

While this is a rather offensive over simplification of the situation, the truth is this: we have a youth culture, and "worship" the firm, the slim, the attractive more than any other qualities.

Before I was hired into my current job, I tried to get on with a school operator on Nantucket. Remeber, I have a deep "radio" voice, and I called him for more info. About five minutes into our conversation, he said, "Hey, how old are you, anyway?" I had two choices: complain about the question and be rejected for sure, or be honest. My honesty triggered a list of "facts" that were intended to dissuade me from persuing this job. They were effective, too.

Some operators offer a job that only a guy of 20, living with mom and dad, would want. Others, like airlines and corporate (fortune 500) have an idea of what a pilot should look like, and youth is a component. Remember, ALL affirmative action hiring has no interest in anything but what the applicant looks like.

On PFT: don't do something that cheapens both yourself and your industry. This is a life lesson, not just a comment on aviation hiring.

 

[bobbysamd]

Life begins at 40 . . sometimes .. redux

Now, that's interesting. Here, again, I had some interviews. Dunno why, but I wasn't hired. Some I did okay, some, maybe not, but people are hired, even after doing a bad interview. But, at least they met me, which I appreciated, even to this day. Guess I wasn't "pretty" or "vital-looking." I don't understand that, considering that people mistake me for someone fifteen years younger (that would be 36 - still too old! ).

As far as pay goes, well, I was willing to start at the bottom of scale. I took a pay cut to leave radio for aviation, and it really wasn't that much of a pay cut, especially considering that I would not have to pay for my flying anymore. It would have been tough, but at the time I wasn't married or had a mortgage. Second-year pay would have been close to what I was making as a flight instructor.

On my round file examples, well, I guess it's true, after all. You can judge a book by its cover.

 

[de727ups]

the old thread has life.....

Bobbysamd...I've never thought you to be "bitter" as James called you....and I've always enjoyed your posts. He thinks your bitter because you disagree with his position. It's too bad you couldn't make what you're making now as a PFI...professional flight instructor....I think you'd be great at it.

JimFlyNavy....next time your sitting around the bar with your airline buddies pondering PFT...try thinking about it this way.

Hawaiian Air (or Fedex, or UAL, or UPS) decides they can make money by putting a low time F/O who's willing to pay for their own ground school, sim time, and IOE, in the right seat of a 717 (or 727, or Airbus, or DC-8)...thus making the right seat a profit center. Management is happy because this reduces training costs and raises the bottom line. The FAA doesn't care because, while the guy is low time, he meets the minimum standards to be in that seat.

I'm guessing if you posed the question in that way, your airline buddies would have a different opinion of PFT. Airline pilots generally don't care about what happens at the bottom of the food chain until it comes up and nips them in the butt. Then all hell breaks loose....

PFT lowers the bar of the profession by encouraging management to take advantage of pilots by making the right seat a profit center rather than part of a normal career. I think PFT could grow and become the norm....and I think it could grow into the ranks of transport catagory aircraft. What's to stop it from going that far...after all, it's only business, right?

CDNJetPilot....personally, I don't believe what you are thinking of is PFT. If you can figure out a way to log the right seat time then go for it. If the company will hire you later because you showed an interest by riding along....that's great. If you aren't paying for the right seat time and if the aircraft doesn't require an F/O anyway...I'd hardly call it PFT.

 

[TWA Dude]

Pilots are special people and flying is a special profession. That's what we'd all like to believe but in fact aviation is still a business. We enjoy the fact that our promotions are based on seniority rather than merit but in the rest of the business world anything goes. The fact that PFT means that those with money may advance quicker than those without sounds real unfair but what makes aviation above the fray? Some pilots luck into an entry level job that gets them multi time while other languish for years because they knew the right people. Nepotism is alive and well in hiring. Is any of that fair?

Whether it's PFT or Scope or safety or just how we like to fly our approaches pilots are very quick to say that anyone who disagrees with them are wrong or unethical. Well, in the 1990's thousands of PFT pilots were hired and have since moved up without prejudice to the majors. Has our precious profession been damaged? One could argue either way but it all comes down to supply versus demand. ALPA could've tried to forcibly end PFT sooner but it didn't; it took regular market forces. Aviation will survive one way or the other.

 

[414Flyer]

Jim, would you mind if Hawaiian made some of the FE or FO seats non paying, or charged pilots to do that job, so they could get "the time they need"? How is it any different is some place like Gulfstream does it compared to Hawaiian?

I also think beating people over the head after the fact though, only does so good. It might make an example for the others, but there is also a need to educate people about how it is not in anyones long term interest to do it, and that aviation will be better off if pilots do not lower themselves to do that.

Maybe if we all can do a better job in educating and ensuring that others who are getting a start in aviation, realize early on how this is not something good to do, (same goes for scabbing too) we can have more jobs out there, and stop having this debate

I think instructors have a good chance to impress this upon students since they are interacting with them and teach them from the beginning