Anybody for the Age 60 Change Happen to have children who are pilots?

[Wicked-Picket]

Sorry Hamburger but the pilots were complicit. Like one Gen-Xer told me, " We need to get that pension monkey off of OUR backs. I need a stronger company for my future". The pilots gave it up in return for cash upon BK exit, and then decided that some of us should also forfeit that money as well. No, grasshopper, I don't blame management, I always knew what they were up to. I also take blame. After representing pilots for years, in capacities such as the MEC, Professional Stnds, and contract admin, I should have known better than to think they would look out for my interest. Hell, I gave up more than thirty grand in OT when we had furloughees, on principle, and contributed more than the usual "guilt relieving" amount to the Relief Fund. I even made a couple of mortgage payments for a former friend. You know what? They jumped on the OT train upon return, and were the biggest proponents of throwing me under the bus.
Who the hell wants to fly past 60 (for a living) if they don't have to ? Try waking up some day with young children (nope, first marriage) no job and no pension, no claim payout, and no sympathy from those you worked tirelessly to help. No tears, I have a job, but my children won't have my financial help when it comes time for college. They will have my advice though. Be self employed, be a CEO, or if God forbid you are forced to join a union, run for office so you can insure your seat in the life boat.

 

[taylor01]

The current group of pilots facing retirement at 60 and are fighting to extend it to 65 are BABY BOOMERS. They are the most populous generation in the history of America. If you think that them having an extra FIVE YEARS of working in a seniority/attrition based workforce doesn't affect EVERYONE below them, you are a fool.



Seniority only works in ONE Direction.



We get five years LESS at top pay. Not five years more. They want to upgrade at 30 and retire at 65 and make us upgrade at 35 and retire at 65. They get to have five more years at double pay than we do. Don't forget the reason they got to upgrade at 30 was that those before them left at 60.
So you've got the previous generation that upgraded at 30 and retired at 60 (30 years), and the younger generation who will upgrade at 35 and retire at 65 (30 years) on one side. On the other side, you've got those who upgraded at 30 (due to those before them retiring at 60), but want to retire at 65.(35 YEARS).

Simple math chief. SWA, CAL, DAL, FDX, UPS are already winding down. You are on the wrong side of the latest hiring boom. Attrition is your best firend.
YOU are the one getting screwed. Wake up. Age 65 passes and you will be in that 1900 until 2011. Have fun.

Stop being a tool. First you wont get five years less pay as captain, as you will fly for 5 years longer (ie. retire at 65 not 60). You should have the upmost respect for any senior major airline capatain as the have been through everything this industry could shell out at them, all before you you bought your first ipod and sleek new pair of oakleys. Imagine working your entire carrier building up a retirement account that you plan to live off after you retire, and 5 years before you retire that account gets wiped in half or more. Not to mention now your are now making 40% less than you did 10 years ago. 5 years isnt too much to ask.

Again, stop being a tool. This career isnt what it once was. You are not going to make 200K flying 12 days a month, your company is not going to fund your retirement, and you are not going to become a mainline cpt after 3 or 4 years in the industry. Make the best of what you have and look out for your fellow pilot. Everyone is in this together.

 

[FlyByNight1]

Sorry Hamburger but the pilots were complicit. Like one Gen-Xer told me, " We need to get that pension monkey off of OUR backs. I need a stronger company for my future". The pilots gave it up in return for cash upon BK exit, and then decided that some of us should also forfeit that money as well. No, grasshopper, I don't blame management, I always knew what they were up to. I also take blame. After representing pilots for years, in capacities such as the MEC, Professional Stnds, and contract admin, I should have known better than to think they would look out for my interest. Hell, I gave up more than thirty grand in OT when we had furloughees, on principle, and contributed more than the usual "guilt relieving" amount to the Relief Fund. I even made a couple of mortgage payments for a former friend. You know what? They jumped on the OT train upon return, and were the biggest proponents of throwing me under the bus.
Who the hell wants to fly past 60 (for a living) if they don't have to ? Try waking up some day with young children (nope, first marriage) no job and no pension, no claim payout, and no sympathy from those you worked tirelessly to help. No tears, I have a job, but my children won't have my financial help when it comes time for college. They will have my advice though. Be self employed, be a CEO, or if God forbid you are forced to join a union, run for office so you can insure your seat in the life boat.

:smash: I YIELD THE FLOOR TO WICKED-PICKET!

-Well said

 

[Hawker rider]

I am not against changing the age limit. What i am worried about is that at one point in the future it will be used to make us all fly to 65. Nothing against the people that want to do this, but i want to keep the option open to retire before 60, and I am plannin on doing so. If the age 65 change will be going through, it is a bad thing for everyone, except the people that are hugging their retirement date, or have recently upgraded to left seat.

I am also not against compensating the junior group of collegues that will feel the 5 year stagnation in their pocket, and with this I mean NOT to force them into 5 years of extra work to compensate them, but to find for a fair compensation.

Above 60 in a right seat? no carreer hold up for anyone. And if it is truly all about the enjoyment of flying and transfer of knowledge this is the perfect solution.

Unfortunately this is not what it's about it's all about the greenbacks, and your own pocket.

I am for a change to 65, but I think we will be hurting the generation behind us if we don't compensate, and i for one would dislike to be forced to continue into old age, i want to have some quality years in my life after I retire. Can't see myself sailing around the world with the Mrs at 65...

 

[B727Driver]

Patriot 328 states: "5 more years on the street..."

Tired old statement.

Fact: 3111 on furlough of 63183 pilots on the seniority list. Less than 5%. AMR makes up 77% of all furloughed. (not too many furloughees making Capt anytime soon at AMR). Many of those on furlough at AMR are with someone else. Source airlinepilotcentral.com

Airlines include: AMR, CO, DL, NW, UAL, US, FL, ALK, ALOHA, ATA, HA, JB, MDWEST, SWA, FDX, UPS & ABX (all pretty good careers).

This is a tough issue and as stated, it is about $$$.
Who gets it and who will have to wait a bit to get theirs. Pilots are greedy (we all know it and admit it to ourselves, quietly, inside). We hear about "my upgrade", "my seniority" "my chance to fly the big jet" "my.....". Thinking about the guy on the street is as dumb as approving a 'B' scale (some are too young to remember that) or those horrible 1st year payrates for new hire pilots (something about paying your dues probie).

Final thought, how many are actually going to fly to 65? My guess, not many including ......me. I have planned for 60 and if unforseen circumstances call for the need for a year or two more, so be it. Fly to 65, forget it.

 

[vtwo]

Fired not retired

Why should Pilots Be FIRED when they turn 60?

65 isn't much better. but is is a little better.

What other job are you fired from because of age?

 

[Helmsmen]

I think that it is almost moot for this year anyway. I believe the House begins its winter recess on the 26th or thereabouts. My understanding is that legislation that is not passed by the time the House or Senate recess drops dead and must begin again fresh next year.

Helmsmen

 

[get2flyin]

Why should Pilots Be FIRED when they turn 60?

65 isn't much better. but is is a little better.

What other job are you fired from because of age?

I LOVE the captains who cry this river. If you didn't think it was fair, you probably shouldn't have signed on in the first place. Besides, where were you when the guys senior to you were getting hosed down on their last flight? I bet you were off scheming about how you were going to spend your Christmas off with newly "EARNED" advancement in seniority.

Fired? Spare us the sob story. Go out with a little dignity like your predecessors did. Statistically, you're going to die at about 65 years old. Go spend your last years with your wife.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

What other job are you fired from because of age?[/quote]

-Air traffic controller
-Firefighter
-Military

 

[Phaedrus]

prostitute

 

[Black Hawk]

When the rule changes, if I feel up to it, I'm going to fly till 65. My personal opinion is that the ability to hold an appropriate medical certificate should be the determining factor regardless of age. I just don't think this is going to be as big a deal as many of the whiners here apparently do. By 60 many pilots have had enough and are ready to move on to other things. I don't see a lot of altruism in these threads. The pilots that see age 65 as a hinderance to their career want the older guys out and the guys that see working longer as a personal advantage like the rule change. We're certainly a group of people out for ourselves here in pilotland.

 

[Candide]

Unstated FO Angst

The underlying reason this Age 60 cuts to the core for us Gen Xers is the bleak long term prospect for this profession.

Another 5 years for a Boomer and the last five years of my career will probably be very different. There are numerous factors affecting the future of the profession and none of them are good. A few off the top of my head:
-Cabotage. Just wait until some guy from Colombia can get hired and is ECSTATIC to be making $15K
-Technology.
-less training and experience needed to fly the magenta line.
-future single piloted a/c for pax, future no pilot for cargo?
-low barriers to entry for Low Cost Carriers (followed by Ultra Low Cost Carriers, followed by Ultra Ultra...) and their lower pay scales.
-Peak Oil. Will jet fuel even last til 2035?
-Video Teleconferencing. Internet socialization.
-SJS
-Internet pricing competition
-ab initio training programs (pay no dues-->lower career expectations-->lower career realization)
-RJ proliferation. Yes, the media talks about the pilot shortage. They mean for regional airlines which used to be a stepping stone and are now often destinations.
-60-65 year old pilots on the payroll getting max pay, max vacation, disproportionate medical, LTD, and sick calls. (if you think this won't take a significant slice of the overall compensation pie, I've got some real estate just west of San Diego to sell you.)

What does it all mean? Boomers have seen their ups and downs in this industry to be sure. But it's quite possible the next five years in the industry will be the last of the good times.

 

[Freight Dog]

Dan, speaking of DHC-7's, weren't they flown by pilots on HAL seniority list?

 

[Hawker rider]

A lot of the people that are FOR the age65 change don't realize how much of a benefit it is to be able to stop at 60. It is one of the few things we,as a pilot group, still have so we can enjoy our lives after retirement.

For us to be saying that there is no financial burden on the younger group, because they also can make up for it with 5 years at top salaries. That's a moot point, for therefore you would force the younger crowd into having to work until 65 and therefore give away this wonderfull right we now have in this rapidly declining industry.

Offcourse profits will be made(again) but we need to work on getting better benefits and not less.

I agree fully with the previous poster who said that there probably will be a rise in medical costs and trainin etc. etc. It will only be right if everybody helps pay for that... i can hear them say it now...

 

[AWACoff]

Well said. It's hard to believe that anyone could complain about a parent wanting to fly to age 65 because the retirement package they were promised got jerked out from under them after they paid all that money for their kid to learn to fly. If I was in my twenties and my Dad had just paid for my education and flight training and than lost his retirement, I would be hoping and praying he could have the chance to keep flying if he needed to. The sense of entitlement the original poster has is galling.
An RJ pilot worried about age 60?? Since when does a job at a regional airline entitle you to move on to a larger carrier? If your an RJ pilot you are NOT at an airline effected by the rule and it's none of your business what the pilots at an airline that is effected do. You are not entitled to a job at SWA, UAL, DAL, Fed EX, etc etc just because you work at a regional airline. You may or may not make it to a larger airline, you may or may not even pass the first interview IF you do get called for an interview, it's none of your business until you work for an airline that is effected.
What's next, student pilots telling their flight instructor he'll have to quit once the student gets his ratings because he is taking up the job he needs to build up his experience?

I don't know where you make your facts up but there are plenty of pilots at regionals that are affected by the rule. 100% in fact. I realize you were insinuating that there are no pilots nearing retirement at the regionals. Again, you are wrong. You see, Air Wisconsin is just one of many regionals that provided a good income and QOL. People went to AWAC because it was a place you could retire at comfortably. It isn't the same company anymore but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of guys with over 20 years seniority there. Of course, all the newhires would be affected by a delay in the opportunity to upgrade if the age change takes place. You had your chance to invest your money wisely. I'm not your mom. Just because you forgot to save wisely for retirement doesn't mean you get to ruin mine. It's greed pure and simple. Rant off. I'm taking my football and going home.

 

[atafan]

Now you want an extra FIVE YEARS(!)of employment knowing that it means an extra FIVE YEARS of your own son and your own grandchildren living with less than half the pay you had at his age.

You are just plain wrong. I still have 15 years left even at 60 so don't try to say I'm trying to screw my children.

When I was 22 and flying crap airplanes around for $928 a month the idea of age 60 retirement didn't even enter my mind. When I landed a job at a "major" I was just so happy to be there and sit next to guys with decades of experience. I was more interested in learning from them, I couldn't even dream of just waiting to scratch them off the list.

You fail to realize that most of these soon to turn 60 guys probably sat right seat and third seat for 12 - 20 years before being able to check out as captain, depending on when they were hired. The good pay probably didn't happen until the last 10 years of their career, and most of that is just gone.

Many Pilots are so spoiled today. You land a right seat jet job right out of college, no recip commuter/freight job for you and no 5 year engineer seat either. You go right to the right seat of a jet and make captain with minimal time. You seem to think that the captain seat at a major is owed to you and you don't want to wait for it.

Don't forget, most of these guys you want to throw to the curb paid greatly to be where they are and I say, I have always said, let them enjoy a few extra years to help pay for their retirement. I know selfish, self centered children like you won't lift a finger to help them.

 

[AWACoff]

Oh please, when I was 23 I made $13K/year flying for Great Lakes. $928 was a lot of money compared to what I made at the same age. You could almost buy a damn car for that kind of money back then! Changing the age 60 rule is greed, plain and simple. You can point your finger at the younger generation and claim we are all about me, me, me. Pot, meet kettle. You did not invest wisely and now you want the younger generation to support you welfare butts. Sorry, I'm not a democrat. Support yourself. Go fly Part 91 until your hearts' content.

 

[Black Hawk]

A lot of the people that are FOR the age65 change don't realize how much of a benefit it is to be able to stop at 60.

Just because the max age changes to 65 doesn't mean you have to fly that long. Lots of pilots retire before 60 now. If you've had a good career and are ready to move on and can do so by choice then that's a great position to be in. There's no one size fits all scenario here though. The other side of the coin is that, through no fault of their own, many pilots have had to restart at a new company at an older age. That time from 60-65 might be the time that they are in the left seat. Age 65 is coming so rather than beat up on each other so we can get ours we should figure out how to negotiate contracts and work rules to deal with it.

 

[Flopgut]

In trying to stay informed on this issue, apart from here on FI, I'm a bit more at ease and I think we all should be. The stated goal of ALPA is to insure 60 is the normal retirement age. That is one element of what they intend to have input on by changing the union's age stance. Of course there are some who think they will continue to steer this to their own benefit, but I think we can ignore them. (Be aware of them still, however!) Earnings, progression, QOL, etc are things that will be negotiated in favor of age 60 retirement. That will take care of a lot of concerns and is the best answer to what we ALL know is going to be a reality: the immediate, urgent/overwhelming, cry for age 70 by the uber greedy among us.

What needs to happen is for those among us who've wrongly lost retirements to display some true wisdom and try to get their money back! UAL pilots were lied to and might have a case for restoration of their retirements. It would be nice if there was an equal political effort in that regard as there is for retirement age change.

 

[Dan Roman]

I don't know where you make your facts up but there are plenty of pilots at regionals that are affected by the rule. 100% in fact. I realize you were insinuating that there are no pilots nearing retirement at the regionals. Again, you are wrong. You see, Air Wisconsin is just one of many regionals that provided a good income and QOL. People went to AWAC because it was a place you could retire at comfortably. It isn't the same company anymore but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of guys with over 20 years seniority there. Of course, all the newhires would be affected by a delay in the opportunity to upgrade if the age change takes place. You had your chance to invest your money wisely. I'm not your mom. Just because you forgot to save wisely for retirement doesn't mean you get to ruin mine. It's greed pure and simple. Rant off. I'm taking my football and going home.

Making up facts? The original string was made up by someone that appeared to me to be a regional pilot wanting more jobs to open up for him. Again, that's pretty cocky thinking that what the pilots do at USAir, SWA, DAL, NWA etc is any of his/her concern. Just because someone is flying an RJ somewhere does not entitle them to fly for one of the carriers that proggresion would be slowed due to age 65.
BTW, YOU appear to be the one making up things. (Indicating I didn't save enough for retirement) My retirement is intact (DB and I've maxed out my 401K since it began). I'm not thinking about my situation, I want to retire early. What I'm concerned about is people I know that have been totally srewed out of their expected reitirement and have no other options.