Any SWA or Airtran pilots see recent SLI at Mesaba/Colgan/Pinnacle?

[On Your Six]

Double OYS posts following mine? Are you talking to me, OYS? You're gonna have to speak louder. I can't HEAR you. Oh how I love the Ignore button.

Now this is funny. Everyone else can see YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT. Very recent arbitration awards should interest this guy. It's just NOT apples to oranges. Colgan is smaller than Pinnacle, just like Airtran is to Southwest. Almost identical situations. Arbitrator Bloch didn't staple anyone. Mesaba was also BK recently, and they were blended in too. If I were an Airtran pilot, I would push the NC into looking closely at this option. Godspeed at a fair conclusion to this matter for your merged group.



OYS

 

[Flyer1015]

OYS,

All Captains, even turboprop Captains at Colgan with lowest pay and no jet prospects, were placed above all FOs.

True from a category standpoint, but senior FOs are still above Saab captains.

The status/category method entailed:
1. CRJ-900 (272 XJ, 100 Pinnacle, 0 Colgan)
2. Q400 Captains and CRJ-200 Captains (88 Mesaba, 581 Pinnacle, 149 Colgan)
3. Saab 340 Captains (132 Mesaba, 0 Pinnacle, 149 Colgan)
4. Jet FOs (Mesaba 314, Pinnacle 448, 0 Colgan)
5. Prop FOs (Mesaba 194, 0 Pinnacle, 158 Colgan)
6. Newhires since June 2010 (16 Mesaba, 225 Pinnacle, 152 Colgan)

It's true the category for the first 3 are Captain, the next 3 FOs. However, to state that turboprop Captains were placed above all FOs is not true, physically speaking. The reason is that the categories above only list the numbers that the given equipment brings, and the pilot positions listed are filled in order of date of hire, from top to bottom.

For example, suppose I'm a Pinnacle guy who was #75 on our overall Pinnacle list, and because I enjoyed my QOL and was lazy, I was a CRJ-900 FO at Atlanta. With this award, my physical position on the list is still in the top. The first 100 positions of Pinnacle under the CRJ-900 Captain position means the first 100 Pinnacle guys, regardless of what aircraft or seat they occupy. So in the above, I would be 75 out of the 100 for that Pinnacle award of 100 category 1 positions.

In other words, another way to read this award is that the first 372 positions on the integrated seniority list will be filled by the first 272 Mesaba pilots and the first 100 Pinnacle pilots, ratio of 272:100 with Mesaba pilot, in order of DOH for each group.

The next 818 positions on the list will be filled by the next 88 Mesaba pilots, next 581 Pinnacle pilots, the first 149 Colgan pilots, ratio 88:581:149, in order of DOH for each group.

The next 281 positions on the list will be filed by the next 132 Mesaba pilots, the next 149 Colgan pilots, ratio 132:149, in order of DOH for each group.

That repeats until the list is done. To say that a Saab Captain is "above" all FOs is therefore not accurate. A super senior FO at Pinnacle in the top 100 positions is still in the first group for the purposes of the integrated list. The main problem you could have by doing it straight up all Captains above and all FOs below would be that at your own airline, a CRJ-900 Captain could be junior to many CRJ-200 Captains, or a CRJ first officer could be senior to many CRJ-200 or 900 captains. No one at your own airline can jump over your own seniority. So, the breakdown I provided above makes sure that doesn't happen. It's also the reason why DOH isn't necessary to forumlate this award. It is category, number of slots, and ratios.

 

[texman]

Oys, you got beat up a lot in high school didn't you. Your post are so scary. I am so scared. F it boys! Let's get this done quick so we can put the hurting on delta. Oys will get furloughed and be out of a job because of the pain swa will bring.

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

You guys really don't get it do you! You might want to check with your NC committee to see what the Process Agreement and our Transition Agreement really means. So OYS go ahead and push for binding arbitration.

 

[bri5150]

Am I the only one that thinks AirTran and SWA are a closer match businesswise than Colgan, Mesaba, and Pinnacle? Mr. Bloch obviously didn't think I flew an apple. I got f'ed because I was in the range of people that flew an orange.

 

[Lonestar]

You guys really don't get it do you! You might want to check with your NC committee to see what the Process Agreement and our Transition Agreement really means. So OYS go ahead and push for binding arbitration.

It really is very simple yet some still can't seem to grasp the reality of the situation. If a negotiated settlement can't be reached, there will be no integration. Period.

 

[On Your Six]

Oys, you got beat up a lot in high school didn't you. Your post are so scary. I am so scared. F it boys! Let's get this done quick so we can put the hurting on delta. Oys will get furloughed and be out of a job because of the pain swa will bring.

Your chances of anything close to a staple are rapidly going down the toilet. Everytime a new arbitrated award comes out, we all see a better picture of what your future SLI could look like if it goes that route. I am only trying to provide some advice here.

Airtran pilots, seriously look into taking the arbitration route. And Texman, like that 80's song states, "Don't go away mad, just go away.....". Many people on this public forum are interested in this SLI outcome. You need to realize that. Godspeed, you bully.


OYS

 

[scarlet]

Really lonestar.. Saving this, so we can judge your post after the fact.

So funny pilots mad at other pilots ? Like any of you are in charge of the merger or process. Growth/Intl./worlds busiest airport.

 

[On Your Six]

It really is very simple yet some still can't seem to grasp the reality of the situation. If a negotiated settlement can't be reached, there will be no integration. Period.

Wall St disagrees with you. Didn't GK sign the Process Agreement allowing for arbitration? I'm just asking.


OYS

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

It really is very simple yet some still can't seem to grasp the reality of the situation. If a negotiated settlement can't be reached, there will be no integration. Period.

This will look even more rediculous in less than a year.

 

[On Your Six]

This will look even more rediculous in less than a year.

Yes, yes it probably will. This is what some of your "brothers" actually think. That might not be the case with nice guys like Chase, but it is out there. If a negotiated settlement does come, it will have to be a lot of "give" from their union, and that would not be popular with that side I would guess. If it isnt a fair offer, then I suggest arbitration. I have only watched that process from the outside, but anyone can see that it is the fair way to go IMO. Godspeed!


OYS

 

[PCL_128]

Mesaba, Colgan, Pinnacle....apples to apples to apples

SWA, Airtran....not so much

Really? You might want to look again, because every ridiculous argument that the SWA pilots are making here on FI about how our career expectations are so different are exactly the same between these carriers. Let's take a look:

1. Contracts - The Pinnacle and Mesaba contracts were far superior to the Colgan contract. In fact, Colgan didn't even have a real contract, just a "handbook," because they didn't have their first contract negotiated yet.

2. Length of service - About 90% of the Colgan seniority list was hired in the past 4 years. Again, not even close when compared to Pinnacle, or especially Mesaba. The Mesaba guys are incredibly senior for a regional carrier.

3. Acquired - Pinnacle was the acquiring carrier of both Mesaba and Colgan. The first spot on the new list, though? Held by a Mesaba pilot. In fact, the first two spots are held by Mesaba pilots.

4. Attrition - Colgan continually lost pilots to other regional carriers, including many that went to Pinnacle or Mesaba. By contrast, very few left Pinnacle until they went to a major, and Mesaba had an incredibly low attrition rate, especially in the top half of the list.


You see, all of the same arguments made by SWA pilots to claim that the AirTran pilots have different career expectations, or that we work for different classes of airlines, also applied in this SLI. Did any of it make any difference to the arbitrator, though? Nope, not a bit. Senior Colgan Saab pilots sit right next to senior Mesaba Saab pilots. Senior Pinnacle CRJ900 pilots sit right next to senior Mesaba CRJ900 pilots.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Wall St disagrees with you. Didn't GK sign the Process Agreement allowing for arbitration? I'm just asking.


OYS

Arbitration has nothing to do with integration.

 

[Lonestar]

This will look even more rediculous in less than a year.

I don't think so. Like someone said earlier, GK and MVdV do not want anything but a negotiated list. If it goes to arbitration, then all bets are off.

From the PA:

Section II

(e) In the event either ALPA or SWAPA fails to ratify the negotiated integrated seniority
list, the list and the implementation schedule and letters of agreement delineated in
Section II (d) shall be null and void and without any force and effect and shall not be
admissible for any purpose in any proceeding including but not limited to any arbitration​

under this Agreement.

 

[On Your Six]

Arbitration has nothing to do with integration.

Is that a part of that famous "Southwest Culture?"


OYS

 

[johnsonrod]

This is gonna get messy. Something tells me the SWA pilots have zero intention on sharing the LUV....

 

[SWA/FO]

It really is very simple yet some still can't seem to grasp the reality of the situation. If a negotiated settlement can't be reached, there will be no integration. Period.

Clear as a VFR day.

This is gonna get messy. Something tells me the SWA pilots have zero intention on sharing the LUV....

I got news for you, the Pilots are not alone.
Key word: "sharing" - whats tranny sharing with us? Besides their village idiot.

:cartman:

 

[waveflyer]

Alright OYS-

IF this is your example- ill play your hypothetical game-
ENTERTAINMENT ONLY- it's not an awful baseline for swa

Air Tran
1752 pilots and 140 a/c = 12.51 pilots/ac

52 category 1 a/c = 651 cat 1 pilots

and 88 category 2 a/c = 1101 cat 2 pilots

Southwest
5887 pilots and 544 a/c= 10.82 pilots/ac
519 cat 1 a/c= 5617 cat 1 pilots
25 cat 2 a/c= 270 cat2 pilots

So make the wrong assumption (for simplicity) of 50/50 CA/FO ratio-
Top 3081 slots ratio'd at 8.63 swa/1 AT
Next 685 slots go at 4.07 AT/1 SW
Next 3080 back to 8.63 SW/1AT
Last 685 slots back to 4.07/1SW

Now consider our pilot/ac ratio disparity, longevity disparity, pay disparity, the fact that swa is the clear cut acquiring carrier, the hundreds of AT pilots who had apps in at swa, the strike vote and other cultural improvements, more bases, etc etc-

And I can live with the result skewed from your baseline example.

Disclaimer- all #'s are from current APC and not my opinion of how things ought to go- just using OYS's example.
And a big +1 to LET'S GET IT DONE AND GET DOWN TO COMPETING WITH DELTA!

I see the standard delta haters love chiming in with further predictions of our demise--- predictable, but we will be as strong as ever after this is done.

 

[On Your Six]

I don't think so. Like someone said earlier, GK and MVdV do not want anything but a negotiated list. If it goes to arbitration, then all bets are off.

From the PA:

Section II

(e) In the event either ALPA or SWAPA fails to ratify the negotiated integrated seniority
list, the list and the implementation schedule and letters of agreement delineated in
Section II (d) shall be null and void and without any force and effect and shall not be
admissible for any purpose in any proceeding including but not limited to any arbitration​

under this Agreement.

So the Airtran guys HAVE TO agree to something? GK and Wall St want this done. What was stated about arbitration? It never stated arbitration couldn't happen. Sounds like such a welcoming culture.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Alright OYS-

IF this is your example- it's not awful for swa

Air Tran
1752 pilots and 140 a/c = 12.51 pilots/ac

52 category 1 a/c = 651 cat 1 pilots

and 88 category 2 a/c = 1101 cat 2 pilots

Southwest
5887 pilots and 544 a/c= 10.82 pilots/ac
519 cat 1 a/c= 5617 cat 1 pilots
25 cat 2 a/c= 270 cat2 pilots

So make the wrong assumption (for simplicity) of 50/50 CA/FO ratio-
Top 3081 slots ratio'd at 8.63 swa/1 AT
Next 685 slots go at 4.07 AT/1 SW
Next 3080 back to 8.63 SW/1AT
Last 685 slots back to 4.07/1SW

Now consider our longevity disparity, pay disparity, the fact that swa is the clear cut acquiring carrier, the hundreds of AT pilots who had apps in at swa, the strike vote and other cultural improvements, more bases, etc etc-

And I can live with the result skewed from your baseline example.

And a big +1 to LET'S GET IT DONE AND GET DOWN TO COMPETING WITH
DELTA!

I think PCL's response above should give you that answer. Arbitrators, Bloch for example, don't take size of aquirer, pay, or even the fact that the larger is acquiring or merging with the smaller, into account in the SLI. That didn't seem to matter to him. Colgan had no real contract, and poor pay, yet their Captains were mixed in with other Captains. And is the 735 a cat2 airplane (size) like the 717? It should be. And what is the current Airtran percentage of traffic at ATL? 20%. Delta has 70%. I think both you and Delta will fight to keep those the same, and Southwest really isn't the low cost carrier it once was. Now Southwest has to pay more for Airtran and their employees, which is good for all of us btw. Godspeed to you.


OYS