Any SWA or Airtran pilots see recent SLI at Mesaba/Colgan/Pinnacle?

[elcid]

Trannies,

I'm embarrassed by some of the B.S. my brothers post on here, trying to drag you down for where you came from or how easy it is to get hired there, etc. You should be proud. I would be. Now add your good fortune (IMO) of getting acquired by SWA with all of the added pay, bennies, contract, etc, and you should be extatic (again in my qualified opinion). However, there is no arguing the fact that the SWA interview is harder to get, and that then only 1/5 get the job. All of this should be factored into the arbitrator's decision. But some of the things on here go too far and are pretty insulting. Don't assume we are all a-holes over here. Arguing on an anonymous forum is obviously going to get heated, and is not a good barometer of personalities or culture at SWA.

I still stand by my earlier statements that setting your expectations too high may burn you very badly. A lot of folks believe that if this goes to arbitration you will win that battle and then lose the war.

Good luck, and take the comments here in relative stride. I wish everyone their fair place on the list.

 

[MILF Hunter]

You have just deeply embarrassed yourself, along with any SWA pilot that you are associated with.

One of their fathers is currently training your management and check airmen. Both of them are well respected, as are their sons. If you want to get as personal as attacking peoples sons; perhaps you should get the details right first.

Has SWA ever hired a pilot who didn't meet the published mins ?

I don't think I attacked any fathers or sons. I did, however, point out that there are plenty of examples of pilots hired at AAI with little to NO PIC turbine. Just look at the junior guy from 03/05/07. Again...22 years old. No ATP. Most likely NO PIC turbine. Certainly not military or Part 121 as your minimums require.

Maybe all their dads were check airmen. I have no reason to doubt they were good guys. We have plenty of check airmens' sons and daughters flying at SWA too. But not one of them was hired without having atleast 1000 PIC turbine.

I don't mean to personally attack anyone. I think its great that guys were able to get jobs at a major airline at 22 with very little experience. But when your MC explains to you how the relative age of your group means that numerous SLI scenarios WILL do harm to current SWA pilots, hopefully you will understand why.

 

[greenpilot]

Were any of those canidates not qualified?

At the time they were hired a 737 type was required. They did not have that type when hired, so yes they were not qualified for the job.
I am not saying that they weren't great pilots, it's just there are always exceptions to the rules.

 

[redflyer65]

I personally know of some interesting hiring practices that Airtran has had in the past, but I'm just gonna leave it at that and move on.

It's been apples and oranges (at times), as MILF has pointed out.

Good luck.

 

[General Lee]

Trannies,

I'm embarrassed by some of the B.S. my brothers post on here, trying to drag you down for where you came from or how easy it is to get hired there, etc. You should be proud. I would be. Now add your good fortune (IMO) of getting acquired by SWA with all of the added pay, bennies, contract, etc, and you should be extatic (again in my qualified opinion). However, there is no arguing the fact that the SWA interview is harder to get, and that then only 1/5 get the job. All of this should be factored into the arbitrator's decision. But some of the things on here go too far and are pretty insulting. Don't assume we are all a-holes over here. Arguing on an anonymous forum is obviously going to get heated, and is not a good barometer of personalities or culture at SWA.

I still stand by my earlier statements that setting your expectations too high may burn you very badly. A lot of folks believe that if this goes to arbitration you will win that battle and then lose the war.

Good luck, and take the comments here in relative stride. I wish everyone their fair place on the list.

An arbitrator doesn't care how hard the interview process is at any airline. You did not approve or disapprove this merger, GK and his investment people did. Only a person outside this mess can truly figure out what is "fair" for an SLI, and you know that. An arbitrator may find the Airtran group a "smarter group", primarily because they may end up ahead of you in seniority at the end of their careers at Southwest, all WITHOUT having to pay for a 737 type, which might factor in to an award decision. And remember, losing the "war" means you lose too, and that could be bad for all of your careers. Just take it like a man, who just ate a sweaty burrito in ELP.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I personally know of some interesting hiring practices that Airtran has had in the past, but I'm just gonna leave it at that and move on.

It's been apples and oranges (at times), as MILF has pointed out.

Good luck.

Who cares? An arbitrator would not. How about Colgan hiring? Remember the inquiry after the BUF crash? That didn't seem to matter to the arbitrator.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I'm confused General- that looks hypocritical-

WHY are widebodies and larger a/c given seniority preferences?? Because of the experience of it? So a pilot who gets to eat sundaes over the Atlantic gets to be senior? Why does that entitle you to seniority? The high paying 3-day trips? Or is it the historical pay?

Well from APC- your widebody rates are $217 and $208/Flt hour. 757 rate are $182 - what would you say most of your pilots turn that into/year.

Well I don't know 1lazy capt who didn't make at least $220k with our tfp formulas. And APC converts us to $210k roughly.

And btw-Those who say $$ doesn't matter have either never been broke and hungry or forgot. It is a terrible person who says money doesn't matter.

Sorry Gen- but I think you are forgetting that almost every swa pilot agrees that a staple is not right. Some have wet dreams about it but aren't going to go crazy- - you make your arguments and we're not far apart at all- I looked at the award from pinnacolaba- and I come up with the same list using their categories of A/C-
#1 AT guy will go around date of hire- then a formula that ratio'd everyone down leaving anywhere from 200-600 FOs at the bottom of the snapshot- no bump, no flush. What's unfair about that?

Wave,

I gave you an example of what actually happened, or precedent. I said what the NIC award gave to USAir, and he gave all of the top 500 positions to the USAir East guys because of their International flying and larger planes. That could be used again in future SLIs via arbitration, and they can site that case. Pay, though, was not really considered recently, and the Colgan/Pinnacle/Mesaba award shows that. In fact, pay was not an issue for the DL/NWA merger, because a joint contract was done prior to the SLI via arbitration. Those are three specific, recent examples that any lawyer could use. There are probably other examples out there, but recent decisions would probably be looked at closer, reflecting the times and current status of the industry.

As far as what you think will happen, maybe. You never know. I am sure each side has crazy theories on what might or could happen eventually, but all of that goes down the drain when you go to arbitration, and you have to pull out the dice and get ready to roll them. So, if your offer in negotiations is close to what the Airtran pilots think is actually fair, then maybe you won't have to go the other route. If you low ball them, then I think they will try. Your NC would be rolling the dice either way, maybe making you guys mad offerring too much, or not offerring enough and making the other side go another route. Slippery slope. If I had to guess, I would think there would be mostly Southwest guys near the top, but then Airtran Captains in the middle of the Captain ranks (accounting for all current Airtran Captains), then a ratio downward, and then a mix of FOs at the bottom, including some of your guys, and all newhires stapled to the bottom. Just a guess.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Wave,

I gave you an example of what actually happened, or precedent. I said what the NIC award gave to USAir. He gave all of the top 500 positions to the USAir East guys because of their International flying and larger planes. That would likely be used again in future SLIs via arbitration, and they can site that case. Pay, though, was not really considered recently, and the Colgan/Pinnacle/Mesaba award shows that. Two specific, recent examples that any lawyer could use. There are probably other examples out there, but recent decisions would probably be looked at closer, reflecting the times and current status of the industry.

As far as what you think will happen, maybe. You never know. I am sure each side has crazy theories on what might or could happen eventually, but all of that goes down the drain when you go to arbitration, and you have to pull out the dice and get ready to roll them. So, if your offer in negotiations is close to what the Airtran pilots think is actually fair, then maybe you won't have to go the other route. If you low ball them, then I think they will try. Your NC would be rolling the dice either way, maybe making you guys mad offerring too much, or not offerring enough and making the other side go another route. Slippery slope. If I had to guess, I would think there would be mostly Southwest guys near the top, but then Airtran Captains in the middle of the Captain ranks (accounting for all current Airtran Captains), then a ratio downward, and then a mix of FOs at the bottom, including some of your guys, and all newhires stapled to the bottom. Just a guess.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Then for all the flame, the only difference in our two hypothetical guesses are that i see a few hundred AT FOs below CJ and you think he'll be mixed in all the way to the bottom.

So again- not that far off.

I do think that CJ ought to be rewarded for getting the swa job. And I think it's a sad state when we don't care about rewarding the more difficult and TIME CONSUMING achievement- (Time consuming is particularly relevant to SLI- mins are higher at SWA which means pilots have to stay in the commuters/military longer to get there. Since it's more competitive and often requires several interviews spanning years- that increases this factor.)
but I come to my conclusions for other reasons as well- they have 88 b717's and only 52 b737s- out of 544 737s that we have only 25 are -500's. That ought to weigh in swa's favor and so should the superior contract. But the airplane size is consistent with both the SLIs you cite.

Bc for all our pissing contests- if this situation were AT purchasing Virgin America- they'd be using our same arguments and ought to.

 

[SWA/FO]

Were any of those canidates not qualified?

the ones that weren't went to tranny or UAL.

 

[jball2]

They were not hired without a type. They were conditionally offered a job AFTER the successful completion of the 737 type. In order to qualify for the scholarship they were required to have at least 1000 PIC turbine. The only benefit they got other than a free type rating is they got to jump in the first class after getting the type. I just wanted to clarify the misinformation.

 

[Dolce]

GP,
Just like us when we bought Morris Air...not everyone would've been qualified to step foot on property if their airline wasn't acquired. We also hired several pilots whose fathers were someone back in the day. Nepotism at it's best, but they met the hiring requirements.

I'll tell you the truth, I'm worried about my career progression at SWA. I see people who couldn't get hired here, or didn't through interview, possibly move ahead of me. I specifically know one AT Capt who was such a tool in the military, he was black-balled by all his former squadron bros...he's four years junior DOH to me! Two years ago AT was begging for someone to acquire them? Today they're the greatest thing since sliced bread! Couple of questions which I would like someone to honestly answer from AT:
- If things were so great, why did you vote 97% to strike?
- Why do you honestly think SWA quit hiring and growing several years
ago? I want you to really look at the big picture on this one.
- If AT was so profitable, why is the $1.4B purchasing price going to cost us
$3.4B? (This came from managements mouth when I was in training. Stated
we were mainly buying slots and "ATs debt" because they don't own hardly
anything. Found this interesting.)
- Why does SWA not fly this very near "International Flying" AT does? (It has
nothing to do with our aircrews or aircraft spontaneously combusting once
borders are crossed!)
- Do any of you really fear you may end up working for GH with a fence? Not
flame baiting...just wondering. (Same management said the "head shed" was
very aware of what would happen, in regards to it's culture, if current
employees were handed the proverbial sh!t sandwich.)
- What exactly are the gains you see for current SWA employees? (Promise of
growth doesn't count until it actually happens, loss of profit sharing since there
will be $2.0B of debt to pay off, quicker upgrades...see promise of growth,
international flying (only if it's real international flying and not island
hopping/Mexico...then AT can keep it!))

I would like an honest answer from an AT employee...bitter, flame-baiting DAL
trolls excluded! Look at it from the SWA pilots position...our gains are only promises from management, and everyone in this industry knows how much you can count on promises. We're not afforded a tremendous bump in pay, better QOL, better benefits or working for a profitable company where the pilots were never so disenchanted they voted to burn down the house! I would like a non-ALPA generated answer of how SWA pilots are going to benefit from this acquisition (managements words...told they don't consider this a merger either)?

D

 

[GuppyWN]

Dolce,

As you know........ they can't answer you because it would be admitting what they are getting just like we can't answer because it would sound arrogant.

It's a no-win bro!

Gup

 

[Cometman]

An arbitrator doesn't care how hard the interview process is at any airline. You did not approve or disapprove this merger, GK and his investment people did. Only a person outside this mess can truly figure out what is "fair" for an SLI, and you know that. An arbitrator may find the Airtran group a "smarter group", primarily because they may end up ahead of you in seniority at the end of their careers at Southwest, all WITHOUT having to pay for a 737 type, which might factor in to an award decision. And remember, losing the "war" means you lose too, and that could be bad for all of your careers. Just take it like a man, who just ate a sweaty burrito in ELP.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You sound like a broken record.

 

[Kharma Police]

Dolce,

As you know........ they can't answer you because it would be admitting what they are getting just like we can't answer because it would sound arrogant.

It's a no-win bro!

Gup

Do you think that by asking the same questions over and over again that have been answered over and over will yield different results? Feel free to ask if it makes you and Francis Gary Powers happy, I think it's the text book definition of insanity.

 

[Dolce]

Gup,

Venting is cathartic at times...you see the same crap being generated by the same people. Funny thing, I caught same management guy in hall during our break. Asked him about some of the stuff being posted. Can't do anything about SWA guys, but they have had others take interest forward it to certain people. Anonymous forums ain't so anonymous anymore. Friends span airlines and if you're a tool, there'll be plenty to roll over on your azz in a heartbeat! Whether you're a moderator, pilot out on medical or ex-ALPA committee member...they probably know what you're saying. Kinda sucks to "not fly under the radar" and repeatedly lash out and "bite the hand" which may potentially feed you!

D

 

[dicko]

I specifically know one AT Capt who was such a tool in the military, he was black-balled by all his former squadron bros...he's four years junior DOH to me!

Did you really think that your airline would never buy or be bought ?

I'm sure your old job provided an incredible perspective on the world. It might be time to start using it.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Gup,

Venting is cathartic at times...you see the same crap being generated by the same people. Funny thing, I caught same management guy in hall during our break. Asked him about some of the stuff being posted. Can't do anything about SWA guys, but they have had others take interest forward it to certain people. Anonymous forums ain't so anonymous anymore. Friends span airlines and if you're a tool, there'll be plenty to roll over on your azz in a heartbeat! Whether you're a moderator, pilot out on medical or ex-ALPA committee member...they probably know what you're saying. Kinda sucks to "not fly under the radar" and repeatedly lash out and "bite the hand" which may potentially feed you!

D

There has been a lot of lashing out at SWAPA and the clowns that post here (as there has been towards ATN ALPA and our members), however, I don't recall anything negative or derogetory (sp) towards SWA or the Mgmt. (the real "hand") that may potentially feed us. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[General Lee]

You sound like a broken record.

Some people have to read it a few times to understand reality. You can try to refute it, if you want.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Kharma Police]

Gup,

Venting is cathartic at times...you see the same crap being generated by the same people. Funny thing, I caught same management guy in hall during our break. Asked him about some of the stuff being posted. Can't do anything about SWA guys, but they have had others take interest forward it to certain people. Anonymous forums ain't so anonymous anymore. Friends span airlines and if you're a tool, there'll be plenty to roll over on your azz in a heartbeat! Whether you're a moderator, pilot out on medical or ex-ALPA committee member...they probably know what you're saying. Kinda sucks to "not fly under the radar" and repeatedly lash out and "bite the hand" which may potentially feed you!

D

Different approach but still the same threats. I liked it, subtle, and it shows a little bit more intelligence than some of the others. You must be a Full Bird Kernal.

 

[GuppyWN]

Kharma,

No threat. If your pilot group as a whole is like the 3% on this board I hope you push HARD for arbitration.

Gup