Any new ABX info?

[LarryinTN]

So what am I missing. Why do we (the pilot group as a whole) want to keep these N/S lines?

Because they work really well for a subset of our pilot group. What we must do, and the e-board is working to do, is make sure that there are not so many of them that junior guys are forced into them who don't want them.

 

[Box-Hauler]

I know the company says the tickets cost $9,000 and that is the price on travelocity, but are you tellling me that a contractor for ANA is not getting a "good deal" on the tickets. We get ID 90's from delta and we dont do squat for them.

At the commuters we paid the taxes to fly standby on the mainline. Is ANA not giving us travel vouchers or do we not know. Just a question. If we get travel to / from Asia on ANA then the ticket cost is a non-issue.

Does anyone (e-board member) know if we have a travel deal with ANA. It only makes sense that we would. If not then the company has already bid the contract at our current contract schedule including ticket cost. Do we really believe we are flying this contract and not making money until we get a signed agreement, with a side letter allowing a 23 or more day block.

 

[LarryinTN]

No, why would ANA give us premium seats that they could otherwise sell for ~$9000 each? ANA's answer to the problem was for them to make it a domicile.

ID90s, and other non-rev passes, can not be used for business travel. They are for personal travel only.

The company bid the contract with no idea how they'd operate it. This was quite clear when they were unable to produce workable schedules on their own.

 

[MJH767]

Because they work really well for a subset of our pilot group. What we must do, and the e-board is working to do, is make sure that there are not so many of them that junior guys are forced into them who don't want them.

No-- what the e-board needs to do is incorporate language for those types of lines into the contract. The most junior people will always be forced into some line or other. That's how it worked when I was on the bottom of several different lists, and that's how it works now.

 

[LarryinTN]

No-- what the e-board needs to do is incorporate language for those types of lines into the contract.

That is what they are doing.

The most junior people will always be forced into some line or other.

Which is why we have line construction rules to protect them. Crew members shouldn't be forced into flying lines which include exceptions to line construction rules.

 

[shooter]

No, why would ANA give us premium seats that they could otherwise sell for ~$9000 each? ANA's answer to the problem was for them to make it a domicile.

ID90s, and other non-rev passes, can not be used for business travel. They are for personal travel only.

The company bid the contract with no idea how they'd operate it. This was quite clear when they were unable to produce workable schedules on their own.

I don't know, LJ. I think box-hauler is right when he said a deal was struck to get seats to Asia. There may or may not be a price break, but I bet a dollar to a doughnut ABX has positive space seats booked on someone for the crews to get to/from for every movement. The Japanese are SO diligent, they would not allow ABX to just wing it on this operation. Call over to dispatch and ask one of us how they want things communicated to them and you will see what I mean. Just ask for a dispatcher that has been through the intl class to get your answer since it has not started, but we have been told what is expected. You are right about the non-rev passes and they are not positive space.

while on the subject....we are not going to have a hot spare over there. I have seen the ANA schedule and what ANA expects based on their performance. They sold us their old aircraft that we will be operating without a spare, without a break in the sched to get Mx done except Sunday. These things can break on a Monday operation and snow-ball the whole week. I hope we did not bite off more than we can chew. Sure, we know this ANA flying will go away when they get their new cargo 767's from Boeing. But what chance do we have to get more flying with others in Asia if we set up for poor performance? We may have been asked to do more than we are capable of without an out. I know it's too costly to keep a 767 over there for a spare. But again, I have to point to the schedule and then ask how we are expected to keep the performance to ANA standards when we are operating the older aircraft they did not want in their fleet any longer? Knowing the Japanese, I'm sure they thought of it, but we have not been told what our penalties are when we fail due to mechanical issues.

....so many questions.....

 

[LarryinTN]

I don't know, LJ. I think box-hauler is right when he said a deal was struck to get seats to Asia.

Everyone involved says no but everyone's free to speculate. I guess we'll know as soon as we see on which airline(s) the crew members are scheduled to commercial. If we see an otherwise unexplainable preference for ANA flights we can assume that there is some kind of deal.

we are not going to have a hot spare over there.

That's a customer decision, just as is the number of reserves that we will keep in country. If ANA wants the reliability of a hot spare then they'll have to pay for one.

Sure, we know this ANA flying will go away when they get their new cargo 767's from Boeing.

We do? The problem that the Asian carriers have is a lack of pilots, not a lack of airplanes.

 

[xspud]

We do? The problem that the Asian carriers have is a lack of pilots, not a lack of airplanes.

The "lack" of both may be a short-term problem, though. Reading the last 2-3 years press releases, you can see how the aircraft "shortage" has developed and it is short-term. ANA is anxious to expand faster than the aircraft pipeline can supply.

On the crew side, the Asian carriers do not have a supply of national pilots but there are many contractors lined up to fill seats. But it can easily take a year to put a contract pilot on line. There again, ABX has an advantage for the short-term.

In the past there have been many experienced pilots available for the contractors to hire. It's possible that the supply is getting smaller, but I've been hearing about a "pilot shortage" for all of my 23 years in the airlines.

Having said all that, the ABX contract is a unique venture for ANA. If we do a good job, they may decide that it works well enough to continue using us.

 

[shooter]

The "lack" of both may be a short-term problem, though. Reading the last 2-3 years press releases, you can see how the aircraft "shortage" has developed and it is short-term. ANA is anxious to expand faster than the aircraft pipeline can supply.

very true.

"Presently, there are not many airlines left who have not yet begun to offer freighter services, and most Asian airlines in particular operate large fleets of freighters. In contrast, ANA has been introducing freighters into the business since 2002, and as such, the gap between ANA and other airlines is stark. We must humbly accept this present situation and develop the position of ANA as an international airline as quickly as possible.

http://www.ana.co.jp/cargo/information/bimonth/crg312006e/01.html

ANA became the launch customer of the 767 Boeing Converted Freighter programme in November last year, with an initial order for three aircraft to be delivered between December 2007 and October 2008. These latest orders will be delivered by the end of fiscal year 2009 (ending March 31, 2010),

http://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=13632

On the crew side, the Asian carriers do not have a supply of national pilots but there are many contractors lined up to fill seats. But it can easily take a year to put a contract pilot on line. There again, ABX has an advantage for the short-term.

In the past there have been many experienced pilots available for the contractors to hire. It's possible that the supply is getting smaller, but I've been hearing about a "pilot shortage" for all of my 23 years in the airlines.

Having said all that, the ABX contract is a unique venture for ANA. If we do a good job, they may decide that it works well enough to continue using us.

ditto that! With ANA wanting 10 freighters on line and a firm order to bring their fleet to 5, and the 2 we have (rumor for a total of 5) would get them right they want to be. The downside is that the axe falls across the neck of ABX when/if they continue to convert their pax 767's or when/if business declines.

 

[shooter]

Everyone involved says no but everyone's free to speculate. I guess we'll know as soon as we see on which airline(s) the crew members are scheduled to commercial. If we see an otherwise unexplainable preference for ANA flights we can assume that there is some kind of deal.





That's a customer decision, just as is the number of reserves that we will keep in country. If ANA wants the reliability of a hot spare then they'll have to pay for one.



We do? The problem that the Asian carriers have is a lack of pilots, not a lack of airplanes.

not to say there may not be some truth to crew shortage, It would be easier to just lease the aircraft to ABX and put them on our cert. so our crews can fly them if it were just a crew problem. That is why my fingers are still crossed for 757's to come over and fly the U.S. DHL network. They own some over in Europe and if they can utilize a 757 better over here than what it currently flies, it can be done. Not to start a rumor, just saying we can fly them if they think it would be better use of their aircraft.

 

[Box-Hauler]

No, why would ANA give us premium seats that they could otherwise sell for ~$9000 each? ANA's answer to the problem was for them to make it a domicile.

ID90s, and other non-rev passes, can not be used for business travel. They are for personal travel only.

The company bid the contract with no idea how they'd operate it. This was quite clear when they were unable to produce workable schedules on their own.

LJ, I know ID 90 are for non-rev. space available travel, but dont ya think that ANA would cut us some deal. I mean if your ANA and the option is to give up 2 seats on 1 fight once a week to keep your Million dollar cargo venture up and running I bet they would give us the seat. They probably have at least 2 seats a week or even a day that go unused. All you have to do is bump a passanger or move some people around. Unlike cargo, passanger airlines do not guarantee that you will be delivery by 10:00am.

 

[LarryinTN]

dont ya think that ANA would cut us some deal.

Everyone involved says that they are not. ANA's answer to this was for us to open a domicile in Japan.

 

[xspud]

Everyone involved says that they are not. ANA's answer to this was for us to open a domicile in Japan.

That seems fairly consistent with terms for the other non-national ANA pilots. They don't give the contract pilots much help. The majority (perhaps all) of ANA's contract pilots commute to Japan on their own time and partially at their own expense. Depending on the contract, some get a commuting allowance but I've heard it usually doesn't cover the cost. I believe they do get some reduced rate (ZED?) travel. I'm not sure that the contract pilots can even get the right to reside or bring their families over for the duration of the contract. Never been able to get an answer on that one. Anyway, ANA doesn't go out of their way to help their contract pilots get to and from work.

 

[Rouge Warrior]

That seems fairly consistent with terms for the other non-national ANA pilots. They don't give the contract pilots much help. The majority (perhaps all) of ANA's contract pilots commute to Japan on their own time and partially at their own expense. Depending on the contract, some get a commuting allowance but I've heard it usually doesn't cover the cost. I believe they do get some reduced rate (ZED?) travel. I'm not sure that the contract pilots can even get the right to reside or bring their families over for the duration of the contract. Never been able to get an answer on that one. Anyway, ANA doesn't go out of their way to help their contract pilots get to and from work.

ANA contractors provide commuters with money for tickets up to 1400 a month, STAR alliance travel bennies ZED/ID90/ID50 fares for themselves and families. Contracts are set up in a way to give the pilots 8-10 days off in a row so they can go home, you are correct in that they are not given Visa's to reside in japan(the taxes would kill you anyway).

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

Having said all that, the ABX contract is a unique venture for ANA. If we do a good job, they may decide that it works well enough to continue using us.

A fair enough comment from xspud; and our being well and truly continually used without a get-out-of-jail-free clause is probably what's going to happen.

The feedback referenced to our new contract is less than encouraging, and the fact that it's the usual enthusiastic but head up his own rear-end individual negotiating on our supposed behalf means, more than likely, that yet another bag of crap is about to be dropped into our collective laps.

23 days away? Something of a joke really, although not a particularly funny one. With the assassination of Danny Boy (round of applause) I was naive enough to hope for positive changes but now fear that others need to be dragged kicking and screaming out of the way before we make any real progress.

So, fingers crossed that our erstwhile negotiator doesn't do too much damage and feel free to vote No for anything involving more than 15 days away unless there is a clear and unambiguous statement to the effect that those wishing to refuse the ANA abuse will be left out of it. And don't think that you're out of it because you're in the DC9 because sooner rather than later, it's going to be time for warm fuzzy wishes of welcome aboard.

And Penguin...a day off is an X day. Count the Xs on a NS line - if you come up with 18 or 19 post it here and I'll bid it. But you won't find any NS lines with 18 Xs and I'll consequently not be bidding any although I have in the past been stuck with one of these lines on our new 767 aircraft. 18 X days my ass; more like 13. A triumph of style over substance in which flying with the sun above the horizon counts for more than a day off.

 

[penguin22]

And Penguin...a day off is an X day. Count the Xs on a NS line - if you come up with 18 or 19 post it here and I'll bid it. But you won't find any NS lines with 18 Xs and I'll consequently not be bidding any although I have in the past been stuck with one of these lines on our new 767 aircraft. 18 X days my ass; more like 13. A triumph of style over substance in which flying with the sun above the horizon counts for more than a day off.

Geez, you gotta live local, OK? With a N/S line, they’re day trips, you’re home for dinner with the Mrs and kids, sleeping in your own bed 18-19 times a month (and on their sleep schedule). I think the point has been made that a few of us like em. So whats your problem? Sounds like what’s good for a few at the top is no good unless the whole group benefits. Whats bad for a few at the bottom is bad for the whole group. You guys need to quit attacking the seniority system.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

So whats your problem? Sounds like what’s good for a few at the top is no good unless the whole group benefits. You guys need to quit attacking the seniority system.

Does the whole group pay union dues? All who pay should benefit. Junior members aren't here to subsidize the life styles of the rich and famous.

This is of course the 1224 problem: disproportionate affirmative action for certain minority groups at the expense of the dues paying majority. Not what unionism is about - more of a racket really.

 

[LarryinTN]

You guys need to quit attacking the seniority system.

We aren't attacking the seniority system. There's nothing wrong with having N/S lines as long as they aren't being forced onto those who don't want them.

 

[xspud]

OK, being a 9 guy I've never paid any attention to the N/S lines. So I took a look at last months 767 bid. As far as popularity goes, it looks like there were an even number of good N/S lines and bad N/S lines. Of the 14 lines, half went to the top 50% and half to the bottom 50%. 4 went to the top ten but 2 went to the bottom three.

There's always going to be good lines and bad lines, good will always go senior, bad junior. That's understood. We watch out for the junior member by trying to make sure that there's a limit to "bad".

Isn't the point that we have a problem when exceptions to the contract continue indefinitely? That it's an elephant-sized loophole when rules designed to implement the 767 as a new aircraft will still be applied when we're an all 767 fleet? Sort of like if the 23 on/23 off ANA schedules get applied to all sorts of other operations?

 

[Box-Hauler]

Isn't the point that we have a problem when exceptions to the contract continue indefinitely? That it's an elephant-sized loophole when rules designed to implement the 767 as a new aircraft will still be applied when we're an all 767 fleet? Sort of like if the 23 on/23 off ANA schedules get applied to all sorts of other operations?

Ahmen brother. The issue is not who gets a better vacation month due to a N/S line. The issue is that whatever deals we give the company to get this ANA thing flying is going to be with us forever plus a day. If the N/S lines are so great and they might be lets make it that way for the DC 8 / 9. A loop hole is a loop hole, don't care if it is a good hole not.