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Another SWA proposal

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1. Because the process is being honored per the agreement.

2. We don't need a union, but felt an organization with a snappy log would be cool.
 
OldManPilot said:
Just a couple questions. If keeping us AT pilots separate and no merging us is an option, it seems like that would be exactly what SW would do? Why bother with any of this if that was a possible solution for SWAPA pilots.
I believe our scope clause does not allow for SWA to do as you say without the agreement of SWAPA. If we were to do as you mention I would guess it would be a one time deal, for a set time as to draw down the AT side. Not something I want to see as we all have bills to pay and families to feed. There is no way SWAPA would agree the above without a time line.

Question 2. If the ties between SWAPA and management are so strong, why do you guys have a union? It seems one is not even needed.
Click to expand...

How would the company be able to bargain and communicate with 5,000 plus pilots without some sort of representation?
 
I can tell a lot of people HAVE not read Federal Law B/M. Process agreement. CBAs

Gary, knows what he agreed too, and the unions know as well.
 
scarlet said:
I can tell a lot of people HAVE not read Federal Law B/M. Process agreement. CBAs

Gary, knows what he agreed too, and the unions know as well.
Click to expand...

Enlighten me. What exactly did he agree to?
 
Stop getting our MC wasted so they can send us an update.

We get it. An agreement was made then SW took the papers from the MC and wiped their rears with it before sticking the papers back on the table. Then SW said take this crap or get lost.

At least your leadership cares enough to get involved. I'm jealous and can't wait to read Nuts 2 when it is revealed how a true leader slams the opposition.

When can we start flying together?
 
Gary, knows what he agreed too, and the unions know as well
Click to expand...

You get a list from arbys, u can't force Gary to use the list. Of course, you can try to.
 
He will honor the process he agreed to... but GK doesn't want this to go to arbys.

The process or PA, just gives Gary a list. He will decide if he wants to use the list. Honestly, the only sure path to our seniority list is via an agreement. Everything else is a craps shoot.
 
freightdogfred said:
This argument of the 717 not being a cost effective airframe seems weak as GK is an accountant by trade, and has had ample time to review it's numbers. If it's such a money loser why would he take the time purchase an airline with leases on 80 airframes extending thru 2017?
Click to expand...

The jewels for SWA were large presence in ATL and eliminating competition. LGA and DCA are small bonuses.
I don't even think that AT's 737-700s are much of an asset for SWA. All of the aircraft will likely be swapped for other aircraft; it's just that the 717 is at the top of the list for SWA to 'trade'.

Keep an eye on ticket prices out of BWI and MCO. I expect them to increase now that SWA and AT are both part of the same parent company.

To mix metaphors, SWA's already gotten the milk. You guys are now haggling over how much SWA will pay for the cow.
 
OldManPilot; That is something your OWN Lawyers have told your NC and MEC. Gary can't be forced to use arby list. I don't know why some find this hard to believe. Ask your Lawyers.
 
dicko said:
I'm not going to wait. I've already started the weeping. The wailing and gnashing of teeth is next.

:nuts:
Click to expand...


Teeth gnashing, while not seen as much in current times, is highly underrated.

I've also been so mad as to rend my garment.

"And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonished."

Ezra 9:3
 
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OldManPilot said:
This is my point, if GK does not have to use the arbitration list, then why even go to arbitration ???
Click to expand...

if he didn't go to arby and follow through with the process there would be legal ramifications. follow and abide by all the rules and he can do whatever he wants. not to say someone, somewhere wouldn't sue, but if he follows the rules i'd have to guess much more difficult to beat him in court.

not trying to fear monger or anything but this dude is smart. he knows where he can go and what he can and can't do, and the bottom line is he's looking at THE bottom line. family is good and all, but in the end it's business.
 
SWA/FO said:
He will honor the process he agreed to... but GK doesn't want this to go to arbys.

The process or PA, just gives Gary a list. He will decide if he wants to use the list. Honestly, the only sure path to our seniority list is via an agreement. Everything else is a craps shoot.
Click to expand...


.....
 
Mr. Kelly is playing all the right cards to keep his options open. I don't think that saying AirTran people don't fit with Southwest Culture would sit well in a lawsuit. Dire economic circumstances is a get out of jail free card. How many pilot contracts and pensions have gone down to that one?

B717's going away as soon as is financially prudent? Can't believe neither side wouldn't see that coming. Imagine the margin bump on the capacity cut and the subtly increased fares. SWA's SL8 says all furloughs go to AirTran until there is no more AirTran. Hmm. Fragmentation language in both contracts say pilots go with planes? Check. No legal grounds there. Less than 50% of assets equals no M-B obligations? That's just juggling the books. Gary is an accountant. Two and two is... My AirTran buddies thought I was stupid for saying get on the 737. Poor bastards.

$70,000 per pilot raise x 1700 pilots? $119,000,000 savings for a one year delay in pay. SWAPA suing after arbitration delays integration a further two years saving SWA another ~$238M+ in pay raises that Citrus MEC says it would rather trade for seniority? Classic. WN and FL pilots in a race to blow their own toes off while Gary Kelly laughs all the way to the bank. House divided for the next Section 6 as well.

Southwest pilots learn what being a blue collar high speed heavy equipment operator really means. AirTran pilots find out that ALPA representation was a bad idea even if they "win". Also find out what "Mess with the bull..." means at SWA. GK will gore you and then stomp your ass. ALPA National may be the only real winner in this. SWA Culture (read productivity) crippled. Shareholder value (GK's real concern)...*poof*! ALPA legal territory gained and damage done while FL pilots are cast aside after what proves at best a hollow victory. ALPA would be stupid to let this go to a vote and miss this opportunity. They even end up looking like the good guy to most. Wow!

I don't think I could come up with a more jacked up situation if I tried. GK and ALPA win (maybe) and all pilots involved lose.
 
By my count I've been living in exciting times for thirty four years, I want "watch the paint dry boring" for the next 20 or so.
 
717 sim

When I was in recurrent in DAL several months ago they director of training told us the plan was for the 717 sim to come to Dallas


freightdogfred said:
It has been said many times here that WN F/O's make more than FL CA's.
It's been said here it's "all about the cheese, forget the SLI"
Now you tell me the senior WN F/O's will bid 717 CA, and accept less money just to be a Captain?

I didn't think it was ever a plan to move the 717 sim. The hardball tactic of supporting a lower 717 payrate will come home to roost in SWAPA's nest, as their senior F/O's will be the ones directly affected. This argument of the 717 not being a cost effective airframe seems weak as GK is an accountant by trade, and has had ample time to review it's numbers. If it's such a money loser why would he take the time purchase an airline with leases on 80 airframes extending thru 2017?
Click to expand...
 
DING!!!!! We have a WINNER

Most accurate post on this thread

TickTickBoom said:
Mr. Kelly is playing all the right cards to keep his options open. I don't think that saying AirTran people don't fit with Southwest Culture would sit well in a lawsuit. Dire economic circumstances is a get out of jail free card. How many pilot contracts and pensions have gone down to that one?

B717's going away as soon as is financially prudent? Can't believe neither side wouldn't see that coming. Imagine the margin bump on the capacity cut and the subtly increased fares. SWA's SL8 says all furloughs go to AirTran until there is no more AirTran. Hmm. Fragmentation language in both contracts say pilots go with planes? Check. No legal grounds there. Less than 50% of assets equals no M-B obligations? That's just juggling the books. Gary is an accountant. Two and two is... My AirTran buddies thought I was stupid for saying get on the 737. Poor bastards.

$70,000 per pilot raise x 1700 pilots? $119,000,000 savings for a one year delay in pay. SWAPA suing after arbitration delays integration a further two years saving SWA another ~$238M+ in pay raises that Citrus MEC says it would rather trade for seniority? Classic. WN and FL pilots in a race to blow their own toes off while Gary Kelly laughs all the way to the bank. House divided for the next Section 6 as well.

Southwest pilots learn what being a blue collar high speed heavy equipment operator really means. AirTran pilots find out that ALPA representation was a bad idea even if they "win". Also find out what "Mess with the bull..." means at SWA. GK will gore you and then stomp your ass. ALPA National may be the only real winner in this. SWA Culture (read productivity) crippled. Shareholder value (GK's real concern)...*poof*! ALPA legal territory gained and damage done while FL pilots are cast aside after what proves at best a hollow victory. ALPA would be stupid to let this go to a vote and miss this opportunity. They even end up looking like the good guy to most. Wow!

I don't think I could come up with a more jacked up situation if I tried. GK and ALPA win (maybe) and all pilots involved lose.
Click to expand...
 
ALPA: The Pilots Union





September 3, 2011

Today your MEC held a meeting in Atlanta, GA, the majority of which was in closed session. The main topic of discussion was how to proceed with the current seniority list integration proposal from Southwest management. The MEC decided that the seniority list was worth pursuing, and directed the Merger Committee to return to Dallas along with members of the Negotiating Committee to continue discussions toward a complete seniority integration agreement. That does not mean, however, that the pilots have something to vote on just yet. There is still a process that both sides have agreed to follow in order to get an overall package that would be suitable for pilot review.

This process is covered in the Seniority Integration Process Agreement, Section II(d). SWAPA and ALPA will each designate two members of their respective Negotiating Committees to comprise an Implementation Work Group (IWG). The IWG will negotiate an implementation schedule with the companies to include: a. Adjustment of the AirTran-ALPA CBA to reflect the compensation and benefits of the SWAPA CBA; b. Application of the SWAPA CBA to AirTran pilots; c. B717 rates of pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA CBA to Southwest and AirTran pilots; and d. International pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA CBA to Southwest and AirTran pilots.

As you can see, there is much work left to be done before a complete agreement can be submitted to the membership for ratification. Starting next week, select members of both the Merger committee and the Negotiating committee will begin talks with SWAPA and SWA to finalize the remaining sections of what will become the Seniority List Integration Agreement. Once that work is done, the agreement will be made public and there will be a road show schedule that will allow members to get clearer answers to their questions.

At this time we ask for your patience. That does not mean, however, we don’t want to hear from you. We appreciate what you’ve had to say and encourage you to continue to stay engaged. E-mail your merger-related comments and questions to [email protected], and visit atnmerger.alpa.org for the latest merger news.


In unity,

Your ATN Master Executive Council
 
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