Another SWA proposal

[freightdogfred]

No, but a WN FO making whatever 717 CA rate might get a WN FO to bid 717 CA...

I doubt it though as we are hearing those things are gone inside two years, why waste the effort.

Notice the much vaunted 717 sim move to DAL has not happened?

It has been said many times here that WN F/O's make more than FL CA's.
It's been said here it's "all about the cheese, forget the SLI"
Now you tell me the senior WN F/O's will bid 717 CA, and accept less money just to be a Captain?

I didn't think it was ever a plan to move the 717 sim. The hardball tactic of supporting a lower 717 payrate will come home to roost in SWAPA's nest, as their senior F/O's will be the ones directly affected. This argument of the 717 not being a cost effective airframe seems weak as GK is an accountant by trade, and has had ample time to review it's numbers. If it's such a money loser why would he take the time purchase an airline with leases on 80 airframes extending thru 2017?

 

[redflyer65]

If it's such a money loser why would he take the time purchase an airline with leases on 80 airframes extending thru 2017?

Mainly to get rid of a competitor, then..

Immediate presence in ATL, arrival/departure slots to DCA and LGA.
The 737 order slots and the 737's you already have.

I don't think he's ever been really excited on the 717, even before he announced the purchase back in Sept.

Just my take..

RF

 

[scoreboardII]

It has been said many times here that WN F/O's make more than FL CA's.
It's been said here it's "all about the cheese, forget the SLI"
Now you tell me the senior WN F/O's will bid 717 CA, and accept less money just to be a Captain?

I didn't think it was ever a plan to move the 717 sim. The hardball tactic of supporting a lower 717 payrate will come home to roost in SWAPA's nest, as their senior F/O's will be the ones directly affected. This argument of the 717 not being a cost effective airframe seems weak as GK is an accountant by trade, and has had ample time to review it's numbers. If it's such a money loser why would he take the time purchase an airline with leases on 80 airframes extending thru 2017?

I'm not telling you anything of the sort, you incorrectly assumed that angle.

I never said WN FO's would bid 717 CA if it pays less, in fact just the opposite, I said, it might get a WN FO to bid 717 CA, the rest of that is implied: "if it pays more". Who would bid a seat that pays less?

ref Capt buthead, he would if it paid $10 more per hour, He makes the point.

You are darn right GK analyzed this before purchase, yet who knew the bottom would fall off of the economy. Again. By every pundits voice, this economy should have already been in an upturn, so much for that. This is merely taking the next step as CEO, he must do what he must do, it's just business. The 717 is a money loser at this point going forward. This CEO doesn't lose money. Choose wisely.

 

[freightdogfred]

Mainly to get rid of a competitor, then..

Immediate presence in ATL, arrival/departure slots to DCA and LGA.
The 737 order slots and the 737's you already have.

I don't think he's ever been really excited on the 717, even before he announced the purchase back in Sept.

Just my take..

RF

All valid points. Is it still a valid argument then, as has been shouted here many times the FL group "brings nothing to the table?"

You get rid of your most able competitor. Immediate presence in ATL. LGA an DCA slots. 737 airframes/delivery slots. All your own words.

Is the argument there is no gain for the WN pilots valid? Ask yourself again.

 

[SWA/FO]

If that's the case, arbitration may be a good option for the AT guys. If it happens, the list would be binding, forever. Forever. So much fun. The pay will return, too. Sounds like the Process Agreement will be followed. Popcorn ready!

All u get is a list... List might now be used. Even tranny's lawyer had told them that. U are stupid OY6!

 

[Wolf King]

All u get is a list... List might now be used. Even tranny's lawyer had told them that. U are stupid OY6!

That's right, oys! You just might find those 717 planes heading to Delta, along with their pilots! Then YOU can fight it out with them over seniority, maybe even after arbitration. Good Luck explaining to them about being bought, they will want it all. Some call that "poetic justice". I call that hilarious! Godspeed, my good buddy!!!!!

 

[scoreboardII]

You get rid of your most able competitor. Immediate presence in ATL. LGA an DCA slots. 737 airframes/delivery slots. All your own words.

Not my own words, but OK, I'll float you these things as a plus for the company, but for WN pilots?

Is the argument there is no gain for the WN pilots valid? Ask yourself again

The argument is; does the agreement provide WN pilots no harm nnd that depends on the SL. Not as you say "if it provides the WN pilot a gain", a big difference.

Your not going to like this but there is no gain and a high probability of harm if a deal worse than SL9 transpires. Actuarially proved, it needs to be mitigated, SL9 did that to the Nth degree resulting in no gain, no harm to everyones retirement, yet somehow the MEC failed to see that view of the landscape, much to their future detriment. Result: Billions of lifetime earning potential gone. I make my exhibit A as the proposed new lower 717 rates.

ATL, LGA/DCA slots matter little in this equation as we have what we have now, and what growth could come out of those slots is already cooked into your numbers of pilots worth of flying. So those paper gains for the company provide no benefit to the pilots bottom line especially if they impact upgrades. They won't harm, they won't help.

The FL group brings these things you speak of, the FL pilots bring negotiations, AIP's, mediation, arbitration, lawsuits. They do not bring one FL jet, gate, or landing slot, they all belong to SWA now. I harbor no ill will to any AT pilot, just as you didn't ask for this deal, neither did we, yet here we are.

Lets get the the bottom line, you will be on our CBA or you won't. I nor any pilot over here have any control over that but I do offer a word of caution, the deals from the GO usually get worse as time progresses.

 

[wood pecker]

A childish but funny email I got from a AT buddy.

"I just called my bank and said give me a 1% intrest rate or I stop paying my 30 year mortgage. They told me we have a previous agreement.

I told them I am a SW pilot now and that is how we roll. Legal agreements such as PA and arbitration don't mean crap b/c of who controls the leverage.

I told the bank there are 23 empty foreclosures in my hood and my home value has apprasied lower than sea level giving me the leverage. Take my deal or I stop paying.

They gave me the house for free. Awesome thanks for the lesson on agreements and the golden rule.

Now lets get ready to hose the next group that WE buy."

 

[tailwindz]

Serious questions.

What are you WN guys so scared of?

You guys are acting like this is a grade school playground, you gona take your bat and ball and go home?

Why would you agree to a process that ends in binding arbitration, but whine when the outcome looks like it is going that way?


I just don't get it.

 

[Fubijaakr]

What are you WN guys so scared of?

They know their attempt at stealing AAI seniority has failed.

Why would you agree to a process that ends in binding arbitration, but whine when the outcome looks like it is going that way?

Because they thought they could threaten, intimidate and bully the AAI pilots into a staple job.

They failed. What you see here is the predictable result.

 

[On Your Six]

The arbitrators award, which will be binding, will certainly be better then what Gary Kelly proffered. I don't understand all the fear and hysteria from the SWAPA guys, if their so confident about their arguments with regards to a seniority integration, why all the fear of arbitration. Make your best case and move on.

Well stated FDJ2. Some of these guys fear the unknown. If they really think they will prevail, I say they should stand firm in front of the judges, yell out "these Trannies deserve to be Stapled, they all wanted to be here anyway!" Maybe that will work for them? Popcorn is ready, even carmel corn.

Godspeed to you FDJ2.


OYS

 

[dicko]

Pretty much. ALPA thinks SWAPA is weak but this is the kind of negotiating we're up against every section 6. It took a lot of work to get to where we're at. Southwest treats us great...but they negotiate like the devil.

It appears that you are absolutely correct.

 

[dicko]

When you get to SWA You will see how it is a family. It's not a bunch of hype. I could tell you stories that would make you weep,of what SWA has done for some of the employes .

I'm not going to wait. I've already started the weeping. The wailing and gnashing of teeth is next.

:nuts:

 

[Capn Butthead]

First of all this new agreement and the old one were given from swa management. So this isn't swapa and swa pilots taking their ball and going home.

I think Gary is tired of playing games with ALPA. Ive told many people this could be a good merger for both companies. Airtran is a great company with great people and a good product. But so is Southwest. I also always said Alpa will be the loose cannon blowing up deals. I'm not saying that just as flame bait. I worked for ALPA national for many years with a previous airline. I saw how the place works and how woeful it is. Glad to be done with it. But alpa is playing their playbook verse by verse. Swa management will not play that game...

My opinion why...number 1 swa does care about it's employees and culture. I won't keep saying that but it is number 1.

Secondly Swa is very shrewd. They want to make a ton of money as does every business. We aren't the only employees in this deal. Going to arbitration with us sets a bad precedent for the other groups which will lead to tremendous cost and turmoil (see culture). He doesn't like the 717 but is willing to keep it short term to prevent furloughs at Airtran. But not for much longer (read numerous analyst reports on this).

I have a lot of friends at Airtran. Great people who work hard. But we also have tremendous people here who have given up a lot to see Swa be the best. I wish no harm on anyone but this is a negotiation. Not alpa's chance to use their same playbook. Gary has made that clear with the proposal since it came from him personally. Swapa hasn't even been fully briefed on it yet. It's in Alpas hand first.

I hope everyone has a safe labor day weekend and enjoys it before snow kills everything

 

[Fubijaakr]

I think Gary is tired of playing games with ALPA.

Great. Another junior SWA f/o who proposes to know the mind and intent of the God King. You guys crack me up.

ALPA is the bargaining agent for AAI pilots. You tried to screw them and ALPA intervened.

Get ready for arbitration. And keep generating the crow y'all are gonna be eating in January.

 

[Capn Butthead]

Hey sparky...I've been here 9 years so I wouldn't say I'm junior. Enjoy living in your delusional paradise. It sucks being miserable doesn't it? Living your entire life behind a computer screen looking at flight info and the latest jc penny lingere catalog hating your life. Enjoy and get a new box of Kleenex.

 

[Capn Butthead]

And if you bother reading a post instead of flaming everything you can easily see that I worked for that so called union for years. This is the way they have been doing things for a long time and it works so well. ALPA has the same approval rating as a cat in a dog pound.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Wow, quite a tirade. Working as a janitor in Herndon doesn't count.

 

[Capn Butthead]

You are to easy man.... good comeback!

 

[OldManPilot]

Just a couple questions. If keeping us AT pilots separate and no merging us is an option, it seems like that would be exactly what SW would do? Why bother with any of this if that was a possible solution for SWAPA pilots.
Question 2. If the ties between SWAPA and management are so strong, why do you guys have a union? It seems one is not even needed.