Another Serious Question: NJA or CAL

[Archie Bunker]

Is starting over at $27,000/yr, with no benefits for 6 months, at the bottom of a legacy carrier rumored to be merging with another, really putting your family first?

Goggles pretty much says it all here.......not to mention basic quaity of life (QOL) issues that you're unaware of at the legacy carriers.

I'm a Delta pilot, and while I can't speak for CO, I'm here to tell you that QOL for a bottom feeder F/O sucks a fat man's ass. I was hired almost 6 years ago at DL, and have moved up 4000 seniority numbers.....and guess what? I'm still at the bottom of the barrel. This is almost 2006, not 1999 anymore. Everything has gone down the toilet in terms of pay, and work rules for most legacy carriers. Commuting to reserve blows, period. Do you like working every weekend and holiday for the next couple of years? If CO isn't growing fast, you will be stuck on reserve for awhile...get used to it.

Sorry to sound so negative, but if I were making 100 large at NJA, with over 5 years of seniority, flying from my hometown, having 7 days off in a row (unheard of for a bottom feeder F/O reserve puke), I wouldn't even consider leaving unless it was FedEx or UPS offering me the job. You may not realize it now, but your QOL is pretty sweet at NJA. The move to CO would be a real eye opener in terms of QOL for you. Good luck with your decision.

 

[whymeworry?]

Thanks for all the sincere posts!

I agree with all that Lake Alice said including that "7&7 sucks" It is tough being gone 7 days in a row. Unfortionatly I haven't found a job where I don't have to work a certain amount each month. I'm the kind of individual who would rather just get it over with as soon as possible.

The good part about it is, each time I get home it's a mini vacation. 7 days to do whatever I like, free from anything with wings. I make only 2 drives to and from the airport a month. I don't non-rev on my off days.

I actually prefer 7&7 relative to an airline reserve schedule. It's a decent number of days off per month. As an airline line holder, I'd probably need some seniority, and I'd have to put some thought and effort into bidding a line to get my minimum monthly flight time with that many days off??? Please feel free to tell me why your dog's better than mine. I think I've made up my mind to stay, but I find these posts very helpful with my decision process.

Thanks for posting the payscale. With regards to the CAL pay: How would I estimate career earnings there? Specifically, ballpark upgrade times and ball park hrs/ month. Is 80 a good average? Is widebody captain attainable withinin 20 yrs?

Thanks again and Happy Quanza

Estimating career earinings at CAL (or any other airline for that matter) is a bigtime wag. There are just too many varibles on the horizon that could seriously derail your predictions... the age 60 thing, a merger with UAL, a spike in fuel prices, etc. That said, based on today's numbers, today's laws and today's business projection by CAL mgmt, a new-hire pilot will be able to hold a 737 captain position within 5 years. If the company grows as much as mgmt says it will, that number could come down to 3.5 to 4 years. Such a rapid rate of movement would mean you could hold a nice wide-body line as an F/O within that time period as well.

It's a tough call whether to go CAL or NJA. But there is no guarantee NJA will be in the same position in five years either... though I don't see the rich dropping VIP jet travel anytime soon.

Merry Christmas

 

[kaisersose]

Going to CAL is nothing but a gamble. To make up that 100K would take at least 7 years.

in five years a 5yr wb fo will make 100g's no prob

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, I can't say for sure about CAL, but as a former 91/135 guy who seriously considered offers from Flight Options in 1999 and EJA in 2001, and flew for two other frac players, I have to say "airline all the way".

What the Delta guy probably doesn't know is that every day at EJA is basically just like an airline Reserve day.

Even worse, it is often like a reserve day where you fly somewhere, then sit "ready reserve" at your destination airport for the rest of your duty period.
The difference is that there is no "hard line" waiting for you to "get off reserve". This is how it will be for good.

You may fly, you may sit, you may just be at the hotel, but you are still at the mercy of the Wheel in the Sky. Delta guy, your longest extended duty is probably pretty much par for the course at most fractionals.

Gina, it all depends on your particular preferences, but to me, the fact that I know what my trip is, in its entirety, is a huge QOL improvement. That's right- weeks in advance, I already know when I need to be at the airport, when the flight leaves, where its going, when it lands, how much time on the ground, when I will leave again, and when I will be done for the day, and what hotel I will be staying in. There is no guessing about when people will show up, and where I will be going next . . .AND, if you don't like the schedule you got, you can bid to trade pretty easily.

Pay wise? Well, at my airline, figure 1080 hours times the hourly rate of pay, and that will give you a pretty close approximation.

Good Luck. Letus know what you decide.

 

[Flopgut]

Not that there is anything particulirly wrong with Ty's post, and I don't know a lot about NJA, but I know a lot about CAL. DAL guy has it right IMHO. Our airlines are very similiar, I have 10 years at CAL and I'm still licking the cats butt! And I will be, for a long time, it is just the nature of the seniority makeup at a large, international legacy. The bottom is an abyss and it takes a long time to move up.

For instance, I don't bid for days off. I bid for every second of every 24 hr. period of my life. Its not a matter of if I'm working today (Christmas), the question is what time do I go to work. I work every weekend. EVERY weekend. Comparing that with what I know about NJA, it looks like your schedule isn't a lot different from what someone much senior, or way junior to you gets. It takes about 25 years to have a summer vacation here. If you don't want to live in CLE, IAH, EWR or GUM (GUAM) your a commuter. The last commute to work of your career will be no better than the first. Commuting just sucks. Don't you NJA pilots get to live anywhere, and they take you to work?

I wouldn't give up your deal at NJA.

*EDIT: Don't you all have free health care including LOL, dental, and vision? (who the heck has that these days?), enormous payraise with backpay? Large 401K match, crewmeals, Hilton pts/airline miles and stuff like that? Shoot, I'm not sure that you don't already have a better deal now with your 5 years at NJA than I have with 10 years at CAL!

 

[jbDC9]

I work every weekend. EVERY weekend. Comparing that with what I know about NJA, it looks like your schedule isn't a lot different from what someone much senior, or way junior to you gets. It takes about 25 years to have a summer vacation here. If you don't want to live in CLE, IAH, EWR or GUM (GUAM) your a commuter. The last commute to work of your career will be no better than the first. Commuting just sucks.

So which seat/base are you in? I'm just curious since I'm at 8 yrs as a 737 FO in IAH and have a purty good schedule. I can get weekends off, 3 day trips mostly, and I have a week of vacation this summer during Oshkosh. I live in the Houston area, so no commuting. You're right, commuting sucks! From my point of view though, saying 25 yrs to hold a summer vacation bid is stretching it a bit...

I could hold a 737 CA seat in EWR... I'd have 38 guys below me; amazingly enough the bottom EWR CA is 294 numbers junior. But, why would I want to commute to EWR to be abused on reserve for the next who knows how many years with only 12 days off a month, and most of those days wasted commuting back and forth? No thanks, I don't need a 4th stripe that bad.

 

[kaisersose]

So which seat/base are you in? I'm just curious since I'm at 8 yrs as a 737 FO in IAH and have a purty good schedule. I can get weekends off, 3 day trips mostly, and I have a week of vacation this summer during Oshkosh. I live in the Houston area, so no commuting. You're right, commuting sucks! From my point of view though, saying 25 yrs to hold a summer vacation bid is stretching it a bit...

I could hold a 737 CA seat in EWR... I'd have 38 guys below me; amazingly enough the bottom EWR CA is 294 numbers junior. But, why would I want to commute to EWR to be abused on reserve for the next who knows how many years with only 12 days off a month, and most of those days wasted commuting back and forth? No thanks, I don't need a 4th stripe that bad.

Beat me to it. I hold weekends off and pretty much can hold any week in the summer except maybe 7/4. I am changing to ewr 777fo in 06 and the guy just junior to me up there held 18 days off in Jan. I also have only 8 yrs.

This guy either premature captainated, failed bidding 101, or is on crack.

put the pipe down and go apply at nja.

 

[Flopgut]

Hold on, I just bid out of an artificially senior position, was thinking this would help my vacation bidding plight, and it did not! Yes, 25 years was a bit off (I had a particuliar person in mind there) but, for a IAH Captain it does seem to take 20-22 years for the summer vacation? Right? Or am I worse bidder than I thought? And those EWR 777 lines don't have that much time off at our seniority do they? I've looked at them but really want a staffing % that will get me a better vacation. There is no bidding program out there for vacations, are there?

I'm going to have to investigate the vacation bidding thing because I bid everything after 7/4 and got nothing! I will admit, I am too lazy to go through and see what everybody else gets.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

My two cents:

My buddy who I sponsored came from one of the major fractionals. He has commented to me many times how there was NO way he could have flown the rest of his career (40 now) at a fractional. The job would have taken to much out of him. My friend is a very hard worker and received many accolades for his excellent customer service. The workload and quality of life here at CAL in his opinion is far easier and better then the fractional he left. He told me the actual quality of life at at work is significantly better at CAL than the fractionals. You guys really work very hard while at work! He left as a senior captain and was also a training captain. His former company just gave their pilots a big raise due to the NJet contract, however he still would rather be at CAL.

I've read a lot of negative comments RE: CAL over the last few days. No one can predict the future. While there certainly is a chance CAL could be a bad place to be in the future (or out of business all together), I and many others believe there is a good chance things could be descent to possibly great here in a few years. I think there quite a few on this board who dislike CAL or maybe have an ax to grind or are just plain jealous of those of us at CAL.

My friend was off reserve in December on the B737 in Newark and was hired in June. He just traded his line today to hold 17 days off. Not to bad as a junior line holder just off reserve. As far as pay our average line holder is paid between 1050 and 1200 pay hours per year. I was paid 1170 hours this year and flew about 80% in the 737/800 (mid body pay). I averaged about 15 days off per month. I'm at the 12 year B737 CA pay scale, someone posted it on this thread so you do the math. I hope now that we have regained our union, with a little luck our company and industry has bottomed out we can expect the momentum to swing back in our direction. I don't think it's out of the question to believe we may get substantial pay increases and QOL increases in our next contract.

Any way congratulations and hope to see you on the line.

 

[Heavy Set]

My $0.02:

The grass is not always greener... I'd stay at NJA. Pre-TA I would have said go to CO immediately. At NJA, you have great aircraft (many types like the Sovereign or F2000Easy which are more advanced than anything you will find at CO beyond the 777), unlimited variety of destinations (not likely that you will become as jaded as quickly), two weeks off per month and $100K+ going forward. NJA is also the industry leader (not in a weak financial condition with declining market share like Flight Options).

No doubt CO is a great carrier, but we all know industry consolidation is coming. That being said, a merger between CO and another major (maybe UAL) is likely. If that happens, all bets are off in terms of job security for the junior pilots. The fact that CO does not provide benefits for the first 6 months is pretty lame too - that surprised me. Having spoken with many CO pilots, however, most are very happy with the company - not many negative comments.

If this were a decision between NJA and Fedex or UPS, I'd say go with the others as long as you have 20 years to go. Fedex and UPS are very different from the legacy airlines and consolidation (with its negative impacts on pilot groups) is not likely. Plus, Fedex and UPS pay very well relative to the airlines.

I'd stay at NJA and not look back. Bigger (aircraft) doesn't mean better. Let us know which path you choose - both paths are good paths. Good luck!

 

[Tail Gunner Joe]

Continentel because ...

When the industry is reregulated, the airline version of musical chairs will stop, and you will be glad you have a chair at a legacy.

 

[kaisersose]

And those EWR 777 lines don't have that much time off at our seniority do they?

Flop,

Hope it doesn't cause anyone to look too close and bid in above me but I just looked at the jan lines for EWR 777 fo.

179 lines
151 have 18-22 days off

If you can deal with the long flights and bad air in India it seems like a good gig. You have a couple years on me so you could surely hold 18 off with no DH. Many are built with back to back 3days twice a month for commuters.

KS

 

[Heavy Set]

One question I would ask the folks from CO is how long before one could realistically make $100K at CO? Is 4-5 years realistic?

Another key consideration should be willingness to commute if your current home is not NYC, IAH or CLE. If you live in one of those locations then your decision would be easier.

 

[Pancho747]

I just received my last pay stub from my prior employer - I made 98K+ this year. I started with CAL this December and probably won't bust 40K in 2006. It's just not about the money. If I wanted money I would do something else and make a whole lot more in the process. If what you want out of life is money; then don't become a pilot. If you want to fly great airplanes and enjoy your job, CAL might be a great job. If what you want is money, well you should become a banker.

 

[scarlet]

I would stay where you are---United is coming and so are the fuloughs...Gordie is working on the United side of things....rumor of coarse..??

my 2 cents----CAL is a great place I hear --just bad pay and not sure they are finished with pay cuts yet....look at United and soon be Delta pay rates...

 

[CAL EWR B737]

As to the questions on commuting. I am a local but I've been told by one of our numbers guy that currently 66% of our pilots based in Newark commute. The rest of the bases are lower I would guess around 40% to 50%. We have pilots that live everywhere. Houston is a better commuter base on the B737. Far more commutable lines, many mid to late day starts and reasonable finishes. Newark tends to be more early starts and late finishes. On the B757/767 and B777 Newark has mostly commutable lines as most European trips leave PM and return in early to late afternoon.

As to the comments on more pay cuts. Surely anything is possible and I wouldn't completely rule out those scenarios. I can also say there is a good chance we are done with pay cuts. Our company is basically breaking even with $60 oil. Our recent F/A tentative agreement is basically a pay neutral to very slight overall reduction. It contains full snap backs and a pay raise at the end. Far better than the pilots did (shows what you can do by turning down a TA). It's basically all about a story. CAL needed to tell Wall Street they got concessions from all employees. The truth CAL management caved big time and got a TA and claimed victory to the world.

With our recent change in leadership at CAL ALPA and most pilots have gotten a good dose of our POS contract. I think it's fair to say if CAL came back asking for more concessions many would say hell NO! I think there are many at CAL like me who would rather burn the house down than continue to watch our careers dwindle down. I think CAL management knows they can't get away with anymore cuts. Hell one of the reasons they needed the F/A agreement is the senior management cuts end this year. Pretty hard to ask for pay cuts when your getting raises and bonuses again.

 

[Palomino]

I would stay where you are---United is coming and so are the fuloughs...Gordie is working on the United side of things....rumor of coarse..??

my 2 cents----CAL is a great place I hear --just bad pay and not sure they are finished with pay cuts yet....look at United and soon be Delta pay rates...

speak (or spell) English?

 

[Flopgut]

Flop,

Hope it doesn't cause anyone to look too close and bid in above me but I just looked at the jan lines for EWR 777 fo.

179 lines
151 have 18-22 days off

If you can deal with the long flights and bad air in India it seems like a good gig. You have a couple years on me so you could surely hold 18 off with no DH. Many are built with back to back 3days twice a month for commuters.

KS

Well, you won't have to worry about me. I'm doomed to be a bad bidder I guess. I drive a long way into work and run a small business that affects my bidding routine.

I'm confused though (obviously). I looked at the staffing for Jan and it looks like the most junior IAH captain is an old Rocky Mountain guy and he is 200+ numbers senior to the EWR captain that is at 80%. Without looking at a list it appears that both those folks are pretty senior to us. The most junior EWR captain is about to start their 9th year in a couple months by the way I'm looking at it.

Additionally, Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I have not been able to trip trade into a situation where I can get more days off. I can't even change any of the days I get and its been that way for 4+ years. Am I suppose to be buying some schedulers pizza or something?

 

[AA717driver]

Gina--Check your PM's. You don't want to be on the bottom of an airline seniority list when the economy takes a downturn OR if a merger happens.

You cannot possibly guess what your lifetime earnings will be at CAL because you cannot possibly see where a particular company will end up. Just ask the '87 hires at USAir.

If you're happy doing what you are doing now, stick with it. JMO.TC

 

[FLYLOW22]

The NJA 100k is based on a 90K base with overtime that cannot be counted on. The flying was diverse but like most thing its not all that glamorous. Fly to some exotic destination, get your gas and pax, leave. I too made the jump from frac to 121 and its the best descision I ever made. As Chuck said commuting does suck but if you live at base or don't mind the commute then take the plunge.
Every company is a gamble right now, NJA is no different. I would be more worried with that management than with any merger talks at Cal.

Well, I couldn't resist.

Having knowledge of what it's like to fly 121 and 91/91K/135 I can tell you that each has it's pros and cons. Also having knowledge of Alice's true identity gives me insight as to where he is coming from.

121 was fun. As of right now, however, I see a troubled future with much "up in the air" regarding the profession. I don't see much solidarity within the ranks across the board from carrier to carrier to stand up and demand what the profession should pay. Management is winning. 121 is cycical some say. I say the cycle is done broken. The model has flopped and floundered and looked for a way to reinvent itself now for 27 years.

Is re-regulation in the future? Who knows. Would it be good for the industry? Well, is re-regulation of anything necessarily a good thing for labor these days? Ask the US Airways and UAL pilots what they think of the government these days.

Like I said, I had a good time with 121 flying. When I came to NJA, there wasn't a bone in my body that wasn't ready to get back into some big plane and fly the hell out of it.

Times have changed though and so have my thoughts. I don't see many safe airlines to land at today. A company is only as good as it's management team and let's face it... Ailrine management just plain sucks for the most part. They have no reserve to cope for blunders, mistakes, poor planning, underestimating and unforseen developments in the industry. When fuel spiked to $75 a barrel the airlines screamed. Hell, SWA whimpered quietly in the corner even. NJA simply raised the fuel surcharge to the Owners and covered the jing they needed to continue operations with NO adverse effect to the bottom line earnings. The business model at the fractionals is just more stable than 121 right now.

Things change over time sure but right now NJA has one of the most enviable business models not only as compared to the aviation industry but to Corporate America as a whole. You ought to see one of these Owner contracts. NJA charges 3.75% more each year regardless of whether it's needed or not. If fuel goes up, they charge. If labor expense goes up (and it did), they charge. If anything goes up they simply pass along the cost to the Owner who is happy to pay it in exchange for the product they are paying for... on demand transport.

Money wise... hell I made more this year as a F/O and then upgrading in only the last few months than I did at Brand X major airline in 2000/2001. Let me see here. Yup. I topped $95,000 and I have less than 5 years in. As far as the OT and whether you get it or not... it flowns plentifully and often and better yet, it's actually worth something now. I made almost $4,000 in OT pay just by showing up for work this year. I made $9,000 in grievance settlments (like shooting fish in a barrell) and file another $3,200 worth just recently. That combined with some extra days I flew totalling $9,000 building my own personal strike fund early in the year and my bonus of $19,500 plus salary for 2005 and $450 buck in holiday pay and I'd say I did just fine. I am not worried about the money at all. $90,000 base for 7n7 at yr 5 and 95K for the 18 day sched is just a good base. To that I could see the average NJAer adding at least 10-15K easily.

Future contract negotiations? I think we'll get more.

Schedule? Not bad. 7 on 7 off or 18 airline type schedules. NO COMMUTING (for the guys on property). The hardest part is packing for anything from Buffalo, NY to Barbados over 7 days. Food is far and away AWESOME compared to terminal food or "crew meals" Brand X used to provide. Hell, after the F/As scarffed what they wanted, I was left with the iceberg crappy salad and a cherry tomato anyway. Eh, who needs good blood sugar to fly a plane anyway.

15 different fleet types, growth and hiring. No age 60 bull crap.

NJA has the most diverse and interesting pilot group than any I have ever been a part of.

There are struggles, communication breakdowns, outright f-ups, etc, etc.
It's not all peaches and cream.

In many ways, working here is like going back in time about 50 years and flying for a growing major. The Frax biz is just fleshing it's way out. It's very new and dynamic.

This place will never be perfect but... it's not bad. Of course we have no hats to wear so I could see why many would never consider this a career place.