Another Serious Question: NJA or CAL

[Tail Gunner Joe]

Continentel because ...

When the industry is reregulated, the airline version of musical chairs will stop, and you will be glad you have a chair at a legacy.

 

[kaisersose]

And those EWR 777 lines don't have that much time off at our seniority do they?

Flop,

Hope it doesn't cause anyone to look too close and bid in above me but I just looked at the jan lines for EWR 777 fo.

179 lines
151 have 18-22 days off

If you can deal with the long flights and bad air in India it seems like a good gig. You have a couple years on me so you could surely hold 18 off with no DH. Many are built with back to back 3days twice a month for commuters.

KS

 

[Heavy Set]

One question I would ask the folks from CO is how long before one could realistically make $100K at CO? Is 4-5 years realistic?

Another key consideration should be willingness to commute if your current home is not NYC, IAH or CLE. If you live in one of those locations then your decision would be easier.

 

[Pancho747]

I just received my last pay stub from my prior employer - I made 98K+ this year. I started with CAL this December and probably won't bust 40K in 2006. It's just not about the money. If I wanted money I would do something else and make a whole lot more in the process. If what you want out of life is money; then don't become a pilot. If you want to fly great airplanes and enjoy your job, CAL might be a great job. If what you want is money, well you should become a banker.

 

[scarlet]

I would stay where you are---United is coming and so are the fuloughs...Gordie is working on the United side of things....rumor of coarse..??

my 2 cents----CAL is a great place I hear --just bad pay and not sure they are finished with pay cuts yet....look at United and soon be Delta pay rates...

 

[CAL EWR B737]

As to the questions on commuting. I am a local but I've been told by one of our numbers guy that currently 66% of our pilots based in Newark commute. The rest of the bases are lower I would guess around 40% to 50%. We have pilots that live everywhere. Houston is a better commuter base on the B737. Far more commutable lines, many mid to late day starts and reasonable finishes. Newark tends to be more early starts and late finishes. On the B757/767 and B777 Newark has mostly commutable lines as most European trips leave PM and return in early to late afternoon.

As to the comments on more pay cuts. Surely anything is possible and I wouldn't completely rule out those scenarios. I can also say there is a good chance we are done with pay cuts. Our company is basically breaking even with $60 oil. Our recent F/A tentative agreement is basically a pay neutral to very slight overall reduction. It contains full snap backs and a pay raise at the end. Far better than the pilots did (shows what you can do by turning down a TA). It's basically all about a story. CAL needed to tell Wall Street they got concessions from all employees. The truth CAL management caved big time and got a TA and claimed victory to the world.

With our recent change in leadership at CAL ALPA and most pilots have gotten a good dose of our POS contract. I think it's fair to say if CAL came back asking for more concessions many would say hell NO! I think there are many at CAL like me who would rather burn the house down than continue to watch our careers dwindle down. I think CAL management knows they can't get away with anymore cuts. Hell one of the reasons they needed the F/A agreement is the senior management cuts end this year. Pretty hard to ask for pay cuts when your getting raises and bonuses again.

 

[Palomino]

I would stay where you are---United is coming and so are the fuloughs...Gordie is working on the United side of things....rumor of coarse..??

my 2 cents----CAL is a great place I hear --just bad pay and not sure they are finished with pay cuts yet....look at United and soon be Delta pay rates...

speak (or spell) English?

 

[Flopgut]

Flop,

Hope it doesn't cause anyone to look too close and bid in above me but I just looked at the jan lines for EWR 777 fo.

179 lines
151 have 18-22 days off

If you can deal with the long flights and bad air in India it seems like a good gig. You have a couple years on me so you could surely hold 18 off with no DH. Many are built with back to back 3days twice a month for commuters.

KS

Well, you won't have to worry about me. I'm doomed to be a bad bidder I guess. I drive a long way into work and run a small business that affects my bidding routine.

I'm confused though (obviously). I looked at the staffing for Jan and it looks like the most junior IAH captain is an old Rocky Mountain guy and he is 200+ numbers senior to the EWR captain that is at 80%. Without looking at a list it appears that both those folks are pretty senior to us. The most junior EWR captain is about to start their 9th year in a couple months by the way I'm looking at it.

Additionally, Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I have not been able to trip trade into a situation where I can get more days off. I can't even change any of the days I get and its been that way for 4+ years. Am I suppose to be buying some schedulers pizza or something?

 

[AA717driver]

Gina--Check your PM's. You don't want to be on the bottom of an airline seniority list when the economy takes a downturn OR if a merger happens.

You cannot possibly guess what your lifetime earnings will be at CAL because you cannot possibly see where a particular company will end up. Just ask the '87 hires at USAir.

If you're happy doing what you are doing now, stick with it. JMO.TC

 

[FLYLOW22]

The NJA 100k is based on a 90K base with overtime that cannot be counted on. The flying was diverse but like most thing its not all that glamorous. Fly to some exotic destination, get your gas and pax, leave. I too made the jump from frac to 121 and its the best descision I ever made. As Chuck said commuting does suck but if you live at base or don't mind the commute then take the plunge.
Every company is a gamble right now, NJA is no different. I would be more worried with that management than with any merger talks at Cal.

Well, I couldn't resist.

Having knowledge of what it's like to fly 121 and 91/91K/135 I can tell you that each has it's pros and cons. Also having knowledge of Alice's true identity gives me insight as to where he is coming from.

121 was fun. As of right now, however, I see a troubled future with much "up in the air" regarding the profession. I don't see much solidarity within the ranks across the board from carrier to carrier to stand up and demand what the profession should pay. Management is winning. 121 is cycical some say. I say the cycle is done broken. The model has flopped and floundered and looked for a way to reinvent itself now for 27 years.

Is re-regulation in the future? Who knows. Would it be good for the industry? Well, is re-regulation of anything necessarily a good thing for labor these days? Ask the US Airways and UAL pilots what they think of the government these days.

Like I said, I had a good time with 121 flying. When I came to NJA, there wasn't a bone in my body that wasn't ready to get back into some big plane and fly the hell out of it.

Times have changed though and so have my thoughts. I don't see many safe airlines to land at today. A company is only as good as it's management team and let's face it... Ailrine management just plain sucks for the most part. They have no reserve to cope for blunders, mistakes, poor planning, underestimating and unforseen developments in the industry. When fuel spiked to $75 a barrel the airlines screamed. Hell, SWA whimpered quietly in the corner even. NJA simply raised the fuel surcharge to the Owners and covered the jing they needed to continue operations with NO adverse effect to the bottom line earnings. The business model at the fractionals is just more stable than 121 right now.

Things change over time sure but right now NJA has one of the most enviable business models not only as compared to the aviation industry but to Corporate America as a whole. You ought to see one of these Owner contracts. NJA charges 3.75% more each year regardless of whether it's needed or not. If fuel goes up, they charge. If labor expense goes up (and it did), they charge. If anything goes up they simply pass along the cost to the Owner who is happy to pay it in exchange for the product they are paying for... on demand transport.

Money wise... hell I made more this year as a F/O and then upgrading in only the last few months than I did at Brand X major airline in 2000/2001. Let me see here. Yup. I topped $95,000 and I have less than 5 years in. As far as the OT and whether you get it or not... it flowns plentifully and often and better yet, it's actually worth something now. I made almost $4,000 in OT pay just by showing up for work this year. I made $9,000 in grievance settlments (like shooting fish in a barrell) and file another $3,200 worth just recently. That combined with some extra days I flew totalling $9,000 building my own personal strike fund early in the year and my bonus of $19,500 plus salary for 2005 and $450 buck in holiday pay and I'd say I did just fine. I am not worried about the money at all. $90,000 base for 7n7 at yr 5 and 95K for the 18 day sched is just a good base. To that I could see the average NJAer adding at least 10-15K easily.

Future contract negotiations? I think we'll get more.

Schedule? Not bad. 7 on 7 off or 18 airline type schedules. NO COMMUTING (for the guys on property). The hardest part is packing for anything from Buffalo, NY to Barbados over 7 days. Food is far and away AWESOME compared to terminal food or "crew meals" Brand X used to provide. Hell, after the F/As scarffed what they wanted, I was left with the iceberg crappy salad and a cherry tomato anyway. Eh, who needs good blood sugar to fly a plane anyway.

15 different fleet types, growth and hiring. No age 60 bull crap.

NJA has the most diverse and interesting pilot group than any I have ever been a part of.

There are struggles, communication breakdowns, outright f-ups, etc, etc.
It's not all peaches and cream.

In many ways, working here is like going back in time about 50 years and flying for a growing major. The Frax biz is just fleshing it's way out. It's very new and dynamic.

This place will never be perfect but... it's not bad. Of course we have no hats to wear so I could see why many would never consider this a career place.

 

[NJA bound]

Great post FLYLOW22

 

[FurloughedTwice]

Is starting over at $27,000/yr, with no benefits for 6 months, at the bottom of a legacy carrier rumored to be merging with another, really putting your family first?

That all depends on your situation. I had a similar decision to make and I chose CAL. I agonized over that decision for weeks because I was offered a job with a great corporate company with a great salary. I'm furloughed from two major airlines so you can imagine my concern but looking back it was the best decision I have ever made. I know more than anyone that it can all turn around tomorrow but based on what's happening right now I feel pretty comfortable CAL is positioning itself for the future. This is a great time to get on with CAL and "if" things work out than it was the best decision I could have made for my family. If not than I will find somewhere else to fly until one of the three call me back. LOL


Good Luck on your decision, it's not easy

 

[Going2Baja]

Things change over time sure but right now NJA has one of the most enviable business models not only as compared to the aviation industry but to Corporate America as a whole. You ought to see one of these Owner contracts. NJA charges 3.75% more each year regardless of whether it's needed or not. If fuel goes up, they charge. If labor expense goes up (and it did), they charge. If anything goes up they simply pass along the cost to the Owner who is happy to pay it in exchange for the product they are paying for... on demand transport.

The Majors should take a look at this. I think the R/T price to HNL and Cabo from LAX has stayed the same for 20 years. If the pax can't afford it take the BUS!!

 

[On Your Six]

I'd stay with NJA. You are already making $100K and it will increase from here. You have 2 weeks off per month and no commuting. In a few years bid the Falcon and then enjoy the ride... CO is great but I would stick with NJA if I were you. Let us know what you choose.

 

[Dan Roman]

Go with the job that provides the quality of life you prefer the most. As far as security. TWA and Pan AM were VERY secure in the 60's. Braniff was THE most profitable airline of the 70's. In the 80's USAir and Piedmont were two of the best jobs out there. UAL sure looked good in the 90's.
Anything can happen to CO from what I've read it appears they could have a cash flow/debt problem in the future. There are no "strong" legacy carriers even though CO appears stronger than the others, what's going to happen if UAL, DAL, NWA USAir succesfully reorganize and actually become profitable carriers? All of a sudden CO could be left out in the cold.
I would look long and hard at leaving a job in my hometown that is week on week off and pays 100,000 a year. By the time you got to that pay scale at CO, what would you be making at net jets?

 

[Lake Alice]

I still say go 121.

As with the uncertainty of joining a legacy carrier lets not forget the frac model in unproven. We could easily debate the merits of that statement for hours.
In the short term, as a captain, you will make more with NJA than Cal but long term its a no brainer. Also, some other factors to consider are items like trip trades, dropping trips, sleep schedules, work schedules. It all plays a key role in a descision. Its not just about the money. As someone mentioned earlier you have to look into your future to see if the work you will do at NJA is something you want to do for the rest of your career, haulin bags, catering etc.
On the other hand, as a commuter, it does suck. If your commute is easy or live at base then again I say a no brainer. 7 and 7 is great but hold a line and you will easily have more time off with a hole helluva lot more flexibility. Heck, this month on reserve I swapped all my days around and got the weekends off I wanted. Something I could never have done at NJA. 7 and 7 is set in stone. I want to be around for specific days or occasions that I cant plan for months in advance on a 7 and 7. The QOL with the 121 schedule is huge.

On your six, let me know if you bid the Falcon in a couple of years. I would love to know how it goes with all the d!ck heads in that fleet.

 

[whymeworry?]

Making a decision on whether to go to CAL based on merger speculation is, quite frankly, a bit ridiculous. If I had a nickel for all the merger rumors and "facts" over the years I'd be a rich man. I know what the CAL CFO said about a UAL merger... and if you read too far into it you will believe there is indeed a merger coming. The reality is EVERY AIRLINE is just as exposed to a merger. CAL will only merge IF and WHEN industry consolidation take place. Can you honestly say NJA will NEVER face consolidation? Every industry and every company will eventually face consolidation.

In the meantime, CAL will add 50% growth over the next 10 years PLUS 1500 pilot retirements. I can't think of a better place to be than a legacy that has assured retirements AND expected growth.

Your decision to go to CAL, or not, should be based on your affinity for the NJA job and lifestyle. Corporate can be just as rewarding as airline flying if on the right equipment. If you believe your future will continue to be rewarding at NJA, and your job will be secure, then you have a lot to contemplate. But I certainly would not base my decision on merger/ age 60 speculation.... because it's just that: SPECULATION.

If mainline industry consolidation happens, then all airline pilots will face havoc. Just the same, the fractionals, and even the cargo carriers, could face the same fate (consolidation) at some point in the next 30 years. Nothing is assured in this business.

 

[Archie Bunker]

What the Delta guy probably doesn't know is that every day at EJA is basically just like an airline Reserve day.

Even worse, it is often like a reserve day where you fly somewhere, then sit "ready reserve" at your destination airport for the rest of your duty period.
The difference is that there is no "hard line" waiting for you to "get off reserve". This is how it will be for good.

You may fly, you may sit, you may just be at the hotel, but you are still at the mercy of the Wheel in the Sky. Delta guy, your longest extended duty is probably pretty much par for the course at most fractionals.

Ty,

Maybe I just don't understand how it works at NJA. Are you telling me that you're on call 30 days a month at NJA? I thought they had a 7 on, 7 off schedule? Even if they are standing reserve on a day by day basis, they are doing it from their hometown. That would be a huge benefit for me. At Delta, I'm on call 18 days a month as a reserve puke. Most of the time I have to commute to my domicile the day prior so that I can be in position to stand my first reserve day on short call. So I lose another 4-5 days there just commuting.

At least when NJA flys you somewhere and you are standby, they put you up in a Hilton. At Delta, you're paying for a commuter hotel room (read: dump), or you're in some crackhouse/flophouse crashpad for which you pay a few hundred a month.

As for duty day......we stand short call for a 12 hour period, and I can't count the number of times I've been called out at the last minute to deadhead someplace. In the meantime, while I'm at my domicile standing reserve, I'm on my own coin for everything.

All in all, if I were Gina, I would not even think of leaving a secure, decent paying flying job ($100K right now), living where I want to live, and nowhere to go but up the seniority list. IMHO, going to CO now is a risky move at best with all the instability of the passenger airline industry.

 

[LAZYB]

All in all, if I were Gina, I would not even think of leaving a secure, decent paying flying job ($100K right now), living where I want to live, and nowhere to go but up the seniority list. IMHO, going to CO now is a risky move at best with all the instability of the passenger airline industry.

If you're not making at least the same money, starting at an airline, and "projecting" when you'll get even with future salary raises...

"You're betting on the come". Welcome to Vegas high roller! Do you feel lucky?

:beer:

 

[FLYLOW22]

It's a tough choice. Can't say that we helped her either. Lots of maybe, woulda, coulda, shouldas in this biz.

Right now I can say that if I were recalled back to my old company or had a job offer from one of the 121 darlings I would really be sitting around contemplating my decision.


This contract got ratified over here and it put a whole new perspective on the industry for me.

Where can you turn 1 week of vacation into 3 as a junior F/O? NetJets.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Making a decision on whether to go to CAL based on merger speculation is, quite frankly, a bit ridiculous. If I had a nickel for all the merger rumors and "facts" over the years I'd be a rich man. I know what the CAL CFO said about a UAL merger... and if you read too far into it you will believe there is indeed a merger coming. The reality is EVERY AIRLINE is just as exposed to a merger. CAL will only merge IF and WHEN industry consolidation take place. Can you honestly say NJA will NEVER face consolidation? Every industry and every company will eventually face consolidation.

In the meantime, CAL will add 50% growth over the next 10 years PLUS 1500 pilot retirements. I can't think of a better place to be than a legacy that has assured retirements AND expected growth.

Your decision to go to CAL, or not, should be based on your affinity for the NJA job and lifestyle. Corporate can be just as rewarding as airline flying if on the right equipment. If you believe your future will continue to be rewarding at NJA, and your job will be secure, then you have a lot to contemplate. But I certainly would not base my decision on merger/ age 60 speculation.... because it's just that: SPECULATION.

If mainline industry consolidation happens, then all airline pilots will face havoc. Just the same, the fractionals, and even the cargo carriers, could face the same fate (consolidation) at some point in the next 30 years. Nothing is assured in this business.

Excellent post I concur 100%. What many don't realize is how much harder the fractional guys work as compared to us airline guys. My close friend just came to CAL from a major fractional, from what he says flying for CAL is so much easier than his previous job. He says there is no way he could have continued to fly for them for twenty years. CAL is my last flying job. If this job goes tango uniform no way I'm going to a fractional. I love flying but not enough to bust my butt like they do. I guess after almost twenty years flying for a major honestly I'm just too spoiled. Some guys love the fractionals and that's great for them, airline flying isn't for everyone. There certainly are downsides no doubt.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Excellent post I concur 100%. What many don't realize is how much harder the fractional guys work as compared to us airline guys. My close friend just came to CAL from a major fractional, from what he says flying for CAL is so much easier than his previous job. He says there is no way he could have continued to fly for them for twenty years. CAL is my last flying job. If this job goes tango uniform no way I'm going to a fractional. I love flying but not enough to bust my butt like they do. I guess after almost twenty years flying for a major honestly I'm just too spoiled. Some guys love the fractionals and that's great for them, airline flying isn't for everyone. There certainly are downsides no doubt.

The pace is what you make it here. If you like to run around and look like a clown with your ass on fire then so be it.

Me, I move at a medium pace. One speed in my transmission; safe.

The way I see it, I have no benefit of terminals to keep me warm but then again, I don't have to eat airport terminal food either.

"Hi NetJets. Yeah, I'd like one of those Greek platters from Rudy's catered to TEB. Ok, thanks."

 

[CAL EWR B737]

The pace is what you make it here. If you like to run around and look like a clown with your ass on fire then so be it.

Please explain what your quote above means? Sounds like crew meals are a very important part of your quality of life at work, whatever floats your boat. My opinion is just that no need to take shoots at others who express their opinion and it differs from yours. Look I've never flown a day of fractional in my life all I have to go on is a close personal friend that has done both and I respect his opinion.

 

[Archie Bunker]

Where can you turn 1 week of vacation into 3 as a junior F/O? NetJets.

That my friend, is awesome.

I am in my 6th year at Delta, and just had my vacation this month. It consisted of a whopping 5 days off; 3 of which were X days (regular scheduled days off for a reserve pilot) that I couldn't move to extend my generous vacation.

I am filling out my NJA app right now.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Bump for later reading.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Please explain what your quote above means? Sounds like crew meals are a very important part of your quality of life at work, whatever floats your boat. My opinion is just that no need to take shoots at others who express their opinion and it differs from yours. Look I've never flown a day of fractional in my life all I have to go on is a close personal friend that has done both and I respect his opinion.

I do apologize for the way I communicated in the above. It was humor. Not all former military guys get humor unless it's about shooting bogeys off the port bow.

Anyway... what I was refering to in my original communique was the fact that the "pace" at which a frax pilot operates is directly proportional to the amount of work that ends up going down of his duty summary for the day. If a pilot works too fast at a pace not consistent with running a marathon at a medium pace, they are likely to tire, make mistakes or otherwise hang their but out to get violated. I take things in moderation.

No promises, no ETAs. When we takeoff, we are airborne and when we arrive, we arrive.

I bet you can read 10 accident investigations and somewhere there is the mention of "it was a long day" or "we were running late" or some other statement of similarity.

And yes... Sleeping in a 4 star hotel and eating what I want to order from a salad to BBQ to mexican at the intervals I choose and not what the schedule allows for are two very important issue for me.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,

Maybe I just don't understand how it works at NJA. Are you telling me that you're on call 30 days a month at NJA? I thought they had a 7 on, 7 off schedule? Even if they are standing reserve on a day by day basis, they are doing it from their hometown.

WHat I mean is that although they have a schedule (Days on/ Days off) on the days that they are "On" it is like airline ready reserve- they don't know when the flying will start or stop, or where they will end up . . . . deadhead, reposition, standby at the airport . . . . anything and everything.

I'm not knocking it, some people probably like that, but for me, I like to know when each day will start, when it will end, and where I will be knocking back a few frosty ones and having dinner.

My othe rpoint was that reserve is tolerable at an airline because eventually you will get off reserve and onto a hard line . . . at a fractional, there is no "hard line" to "get to".

On the plus side, you will definitely go to a wide variety of places, and meet a completely different group of people than you would "flying the line". I enjoyed both types of flying, but I like to know what my week will consist of before I show up. If I don't like it, I can likely change it by creative bidding . . . not so at a fractional.

Anyway, whatever you decide, best of luck.

 

[AA717driver]

Ty--Not all people get off reserve in a timely manner. Just ask those on the bottom at stagnant legacys. I did two years on reserve at AA prior to my furlough. I was making 40% more than I make now and there's NFW I'd go back to that.

You are lucky that you are at a growing airline. There is no guarantee that will continue anywhere. If CAL hits a bump in the road, the newbies could be stranded on the bottom, on reserve in EWR for a long, long time. It's happened repeatedly in the airline business. You get sold "captain in 5 years--just look at the retirements!" in the interview and the economy tanks and you are screwed.

7/7 is not like being on reserve. It is like having a week of work, followed by a week off. It's no different than leaving for a trip with the airlines. When you are on a trip, you work. When you are home, you don't work.

The medical and points for vacation give you a several-thousand dollar per year raise over the airlines. I'll take points over passes any day. JMO.TC

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty--Not all people get off reserve in a timely manner. Just ask those on the bottom at stagnant legacys.

Agreed, but, to me, flying for a frac would be like always flying a reserve line. The only thing you know is what day you start, and what day you stop. No idea when each day will start, where you will be going, how many respositionings, length of the legs, flight times, "sit" times, etc. All you know is what the maximums allowed by law or the contract.

You are lucky that you are at a growing airline. There is no guarantee that will continue anywhere. If CAL hits a bump in the road, the newbies could be stranded on the bottom, on reserve in EWR for a long, long time. It's happened repeatedly in the airline business. You get sold "captain in 5 years--just look at the retirements!" in the interview and the economy tanks and you are screwed.

No argument from me.

7/7 is not like being on reserve. It is like having a week of work, followed by a week off. It's no different than leaving for a trip with the airlines. When you are on a trip, you work. When you are home, you don't work.

I am not saying 7/7 is like being on reserve, I am saying that Frac flying, as I undestand it, is like flying on resereve. You only know what day and time you start the week, and the day and time you will end the week, and everything in between, within the limits of the contract, is fair game. "Depart TEB at 0615 for DCA with 4 pax, lead pax name is ____, When you get to DCA, give us a call, we may have something coming out of there ". . . . get to DCA and call . . . ."Nothing yet, but stand by at the airport, we'll get back to you". AFter three hours, finally, a call, "Reposition to HPN and depart at 1400 with 6 pax to LIT, when you get there give us a call". "Depart LIT reposition to HOU, RON, you have a 0700 departure in the morning to ELP".

OK, so now I finally know when the pain will end, where I will be sleeping, and how much longer before I am back at it again. . . . Sounds like reserve to me. Compare that with seeing that actual "pairing" in a line:

Day 1

Report 0530

TEB-DCA 0615 0712 Block 0058 Credit 0058
DCA-HPN 1012 1102 Block 0050 Credit 0050 DHD
HPN- LIT 1400 1610 Block 0210 Credit 0210
LIT -HOU 1700-1749 Block 0049 Credit 0049 DHD

Total Block 0447 Total Duty 1234 Rest 1211

You could look at that thing and say "Yuck . . . 4 legs with almost 6 hours ground time and overnight in ELP" and hopefully drop it or trade it, or fly it. To me, that makes a big difference . . . . maybe not to everyone.

The medical and points for vacation give you a several-thousand dollar per year raise over the airlines. I'll take points over passes any day. JMO.TC

Agreed.

The point I was trying to make is simply that there is a big difference between frac flying and line flying . . . and that for some, that is a big consideration in determining QOL.

 

[AA717driver]

Ty--I guess I spent too much time at AA where you start your trip and never know where scheduling will send you during the days you are out. Take care.TC