Another Serious Question: NJA or CAL

[Tail Gunner Joe]

Continentel because ...

When the industry is reregulated, the airline version of musical chairs will stop, and you will be glad you have a chair at a legacy.

 

[kaisersose]

And those EWR 777 lines don't have that much time off at our seniority do they?

Flop,

Hope it doesn't cause anyone to look too close and bid in above me but I just looked at the jan lines for EWR 777 fo.

179 lines
151 have 18-22 days off

If you can deal with the long flights and bad air in India it seems like a good gig. You have a couple years on me so you could surely hold 18 off with no DH. Many are built with back to back 3days twice a month for commuters.

KS

 

[Heavy Set]

One question I would ask the folks from CO is how long before one could realistically make $100K at CO? Is 4-5 years realistic?

Another key consideration should be willingness to commute if your current home is not NYC, IAH or CLE. If you live in one of those locations then your decision would be easier.

 

[Pancho747]

I just received my last pay stub from my prior employer - I made 98K+ this year. I started with CAL this December and probably won't bust 40K in 2006. It's just not about the money. If I wanted money I would do something else and make a whole lot more in the process. If what you want out of life is money; then don't become a pilot. If you want to fly great airplanes and enjoy your job, CAL might be a great job. If what you want is money, well you should become a banker.

 

[scarlet]

I would stay where you are---United is coming and so are the fuloughs...Gordie is working on the United side of things....rumor of coarse..??

my 2 cents----CAL is a great place I hear --just bad pay and not sure they are finished with pay cuts yet....look at United and soon be Delta pay rates...

 

[CAL EWR B737]

As to the questions on commuting. I am a local but I've been told by one of our numbers guy that currently 66% of our pilots based in Newark commute. The rest of the bases are lower I would guess around 40% to 50%. We have pilots that live everywhere. Houston is a better commuter base on the B737. Far more commutable lines, many mid to late day starts and reasonable finishes. Newark tends to be more early starts and late finishes. On the B757/767 and B777 Newark has mostly commutable lines as most European trips leave PM and return in early to late afternoon.

As to the comments on more pay cuts. Surely anything is possible and I wouldn't completely rule out those scenarios. I can also say there is a good chance we are done with pay cuts. Our company is basically breaking even with $60 oil. Our recent F/A tentative agreement is basically a pay neutral to very slight overall reduction. It contains full snap backs and a pay raise at the end. Far better than the pilots did (shows what you can do by turning down a TA). It's basically all about a story. CAL needed to tell Wall Street they got concessions from all employees. The truth CAL management caved big time and got a TA and claimed victory to the world.

With our recent change in leadership at CAL ALPA and most pilots have gotten a good dose of our POS contract. I think it's fair to say if CAL came back asking for more concessions many would say hell NO! I think there are many at CAL like me who would rather burn the house down than continue to watch our careers dwindle down. I think CAL management knows they can't get away with anymore cuts. Hell one of the reasons they needed the F/A agreement is the senior management cuts end this year. Pretty hard to ask for pay cuts when your getting raises and bonuses again.

 

[Palomino]

I would stay where you are---United is coming and so are the fuloughs...Gordie is working on the United side of things....rumor of coarse..??

my 2 cents----CAL is a great place I hear --just bad pay and not sure they are finished with pay cuts yet....look at United and soon be Delta pay rates...

speak (or spell) English?

 

[Flopgut]

Flop,

Hope it doesn't cause anyone to look too close and bid in above me but I just looked at the jan lines for EWR 777 fo.

179 lines
151 have 18-22 days off

If you can deal with the long flights and bad air in India it seems like a good gig. You have a couple years on me so you could surely hold 18 off with no DH. Many are built with back to back 3days twice a month for commuters.

KS

Well, you won't have to worry about me. I'm doomed to be a bad bidder I guess. I drive a long way into work and run a small business that affects my bidding routine.

I'm confused though (obviously). I looked at the staffing for Jan and it looks like the most junior IAH captain is an old Rocky Mountain guy and he is 200+ numbers senior to the EWR captain that is at 80%. Without looking at a list it appears that both those folks are pretty senior to us. The most junior EWR captain is about to start their 9th year in a couple months by the way I'm looking at it.

Additionally, Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I have not been able to trip trade into a situation where I can get more days off. I can't even change any of the days I get and its been that way for 4+ years. Am I suppose to be buying some schedulers pizza or something?

 

[AA717driver]

Gina--Check your PM's. You don't want to be on the bottom of an airline seniority list when the economy takes a downturn OR if a merger happens.

You cannot possibly guess what your lifetime earnings will be at CAL because you cannot possibly see where a particular company will end up. Just ask the '87 hires at USAir.

If you're happy doing what you are doing now, stick with it. JMO.TC

 

[FLYLOW22]

The NJA 100k is based on a 90K base with overtime that cannot be counted on. The flying was diverse but like most thing its not all that glamorous. Fly to some exotic destination, get your gas and pax, leave. I too made the jump from frac to 121 and its the best descision I ever made. As Chuck said commuting does suck but if you live at base or don't mind the commute then take the plunge.
Every company is a gamble right now, NJA is no different. I would be more worried with that management than with any merger talks at Cal.

Well, I couldn't resist.

Having knowledge of what it's like to fly 121 and 91/91K/135 I can tell you that each has it's pros and cons. Also having knowledge of Alice's true identity gives me insight as to where he is coming from.

121 was fun. As of right now, however, I see a troubled future with much "up in the air" regarding the profession. I don't see much solidarity within the ranks across the board from carrier to carrier to stand up and demand what the profession should pay. Management is winning. 121 is cycical some say. I say the cycle is done broken. The model has flopped and floundered and looked for a way to reinvent itself now for 27 years.

Is re-regulation in the future? Who knows. Would it be good for the industry? Well, is re-regulation of anything necessarily a good thing for labor these days? Ask the US Airways and UAL pilots what they think of the government these days.

Like I said, I had a good time with 121 flying. When I came to NJA, there wasn't a bone in my body that wasn't ready to get back into some big plane and fly the hell out of it.

Times have changed though and so have my thoughts. I don't see many safe airlines to land at today. A company is only as good as it's management team and let's face it... Ailrine management just plain sucks for the most part. They have no reserve to cope for blunders, mistakes, poor planning, underestimating and unforseen developments in the industry. When fuel spiked to $75 a barrel the airlines screamed. Hell, SWA whimpered quietly in the corner even. NJA simply raised the fuel surcharge to the Owners and covered the jing they needed to continue operations with NO adverse effect to the bottom line earnings. The business model at the fractionals is just more stable than 121 right now.

Things change over time sure but right now NJA has one of the most enviable business models not only as compared to the aviation industry but to Corporate America as a whole. You ought to see one of these Owner contracts. NJA charges 3.75% more each year regardless of whether it's needed or not. If fuel goes up, they charge. If labor expense goes up (and it did), they charge. If anything goes up they simply pass along the cost to the Owner who is happy to pay it in exchange for the product they are paying for... on demand transport.

Money wise... hell I made more this year as a F/O and then upgrading in only the last few months than I did at Brand X major airline in 2000/2001. Let me see here. Yup. I topped $95,000 and I have less than 5 years in. As far as the OT and whether you get it or not... it flowns plentifully and often and better yet, it's actually worth something now. I made almost $4,000 in OT pay just by showing up for work this year. I made $9,000 in grievance settlments (like shooting fish in a barrell) and file another $3,200 worth just recently. That combined with some extra days I flew totalling $9,000 building my own personal strike fund early in the year and my bonus of $19,500 plus salary for 2005 and $450 buck in holiday pay and I'd say I did just fine. I am not worried about the money at all. $90,000 base for 7n7 at yr 5 and 95K for the 18 day sched is just a good base. To that I could see the average NJAer adding at least 10-15K easily.

Future contract negotiations? I think we'll get more.

Schedule? Not bad. 7 on 7 off or 18 airline type schedules. NO COMMUTING (for the guys on property). The hardest part is packing for anything from Buffalo, NY to Barbados over 7 days. Food is far and away AWESOME compared to terminal food or "crew meals" Brand X used to provide. Hell, after the F/As scarffed what they wanted, I was left with the iceberg crappy salad and a cherry tomato anyway. Eh, who needs good blood sugar to fly a plane anyway.

15 different fleet types, growth and hiring. No age 60 bull crap.

NJA has the most diverse and interesting pilot group than any I have ever been a part of.

There are struggles, communication breakdowns, outright f-ups, etc, etc.
It's not all peaches and cream.

In many ways, working here is like going back in time about 50 years and flying for a growing major. The Frax biz is just fleshing it's way out. It's very new and dynamic.

This place will never be perfect but... it's not bad. Of course we have no hats to wear so I could see why many would never consider this a career place.